Guns

[Tehchad]

I really don't think that any true gun enthusiast believes that self-defense is restricted to gun ownership. Rather, it provides a level of self-defense that people who don't have guns don't have. Gun people and non-gun people both rely on the same things to stay out of danger. The gun is simply a tool to use when normal precautions fail and when the situation calls for it.

QFT

 

[CoSteve]

As you can tell by my sig and this article I wrote on the subject, WWJD at a gun show (stephenewright.com/God_Guns_blogpost.htm), I am a strong believer in both firearms ownership and carry. But I don't believe this is an item that Jesus gave us any but the most general guidance on, so I don't think defending a right to own arms is a Christian calling per se. I do believe that Jesus was quite clear that self defense of life and limb is alright, and being armed is acceptable ... but believing in self defense and the free availability of a given type of weapon is not the same thing. i.e. if I'm anti-gun (and I'm not) I might agree you have a right to defend yourself with whatever tools you have available, but the negatives to society of allowing everyone to own guns are greater than the positives.

But as to the practicality of a firearm for self defense vs. martial arts ... having a gun is like having a fire extinguisher; you have to have it in the right place at the right time, realize the right time to use it, and use it effectively right away. And if you fail to do the latter, you may actually make things worse. But we don't NOT have fire extinguishers around because we might not use them properly, we keep them around because having one gives you options and just might empower you to save a life or two.

The great thing about martial arts of whatever type, if you're young enough, fit enough, and have the time and money to learn them (few of us meet all those requirements) is it gives you an option for all situations, and it's an option that is less likely to get you arrested.

If I could take 2 day class and become a Marital Arts expert, I'd do that instead of keeping a gun around. But I can't learn martial arts that fast or cheaply, but I can learn to use a gun that fast and cheaply. And while the gun isn't applicable to as many situations as the martial arts ... it is definitely a very, very powerful tool to have available.

 

[Ruckhard82]

Lacking law enforcement or military training, and you don't get it from a two day course, you don't know how to properly use a fire arm as a tool of combat. A two day course isn't going to get your head around the psychological realities of having to shot another person. Nor is it going to do much to prepare you for the physical realities of discharging a firearm in a low light and/or confined space. A lot of course courses also install bad techniques. Teaching people to draw down on a target is a big area, when the reality is if you're drawing from hostler you'd be drawing up on your target.

I have no issues with people that want to own fire arms. For most people they end up being little else than recreational items. I see no need for average citizens to carry weapons on their persons however. Without proper and substantial training the weapon is just as dangerous to you as it is a criminal. The other area that gives me pause is the number of instances as a police officer I've responded to calls featuring women with carry permits pulling guns on any man they feel threatened by. In 99 percent of these there was absolutely no cause for a weapon to be drawn. You can call it sexist if you like, but too many women are going to pull the gun as a first course of action. Just be safer for everyone if private citizens weren't packing heat.

 

[mjmcmillan]

Somewhere there's got to be some balance. Macfall suggests that martial arts might be useful in addition to having a gun, suggesting that the gun is your first line of defense. Opposite side might be represented by Trash (hate that screen name, sounds like a self-put-down) who seems to say that nobody should own a gun and you should just depend on the police for help when needed. Good sense might be somewhere in between these two views--- probably ducking behind a dumpster to avoid the cross-fire.

I tend to agree with Trash on certain points. There's a lot of wisdom in being aware of your surroundings and choosing the safest way to get from point A to point B. About domicile invasions: You can cut down on this a lot by doing your homework before you move in to a place. My sister and her husband practically wore out their phone and computer before moving cross-country to their new digs in California, my guess is that they won't have hot-and-cold running intruders in their apartment every night. The same caution applies to an in-town move. The complex I live in is fairly quiet, the police have been here twice to my knowledge in the past year and a half. There are complexes nearby which don't fair so well, the police are in there all the time. A little bit of digging ferrets out the whys about it.

Yes, you can live without ever owning a gun. You can do this without ever once being robbed or burglarized or otherwise molested if you take some smart precautions.

 

[CoSteve]

I respect your service and position as a police officer, and I don't argue with your experience ... but I do disagree with your conclusion.

Although I've never been a police officer, I married into a family with many officers and I have many cop friends (some years back I was even best man at a Denver police officer's wedding). You may or may not know, but historically many rural departments gave officers, already expected to know how to use a firearm in general, little more than a few hours brush up course and then made them pass a simple accuracy test. In one relative's case he was carrying a firearm and working nights alone as a reserve Sheriff's officer (before he went to the academy and became full time) with zero real training.

But in any case ... a police officer must learn to engage and stay engaged in a fight. S/he must operate with other officer's and deal with many situations where withdrawal or avoidance is not an option. Being a cop means many, many things.

For a civilian of the proper mindset (and not all of us are) ... carrying a firearm is not (should not be, sounds like for some it is from what you say) plan "A." It's plan C or D, and we have no need to engage or stay engaged; just empowered with another option to get away or to use when all else has failed. And as Christians (or just humans) I think we all here understand the nature of mankind and that we are not a non-violent people in general, so using violence with or without a tool to defend ourselves is not alien to our nature.

So I do disagree with you, but as I said ... I respect your position. Interestingly I have found that most officers I've talked to here in Colorado (and I've not talked to more than a handful) are quite supportive of civilian carry now that it's been around awhile. They haven't talked about the issues you've seen nor seen anything that endangered them -- and a very few have seen civilians use their weapons to great effect. Most have gotten their wive's to get a license.

 

[Blackguard_]

Somewhere there's got to be some balance.

No. It's not a balance thing, it's a false dichotomy thing. Having a gun doesn't mean you can ignore surroundings, being aware of your surroundings doesn't mean you will never have to defend yourself, and guns and martial arts both have limits and can fill in each others gaps and enhance each other.

Yes, you can live without ever owning a gun. You can do this without ever once being robbed or burglarized or otherwise molested if you take some smart precautions.

And are lucky. All precautions can fail.

 

[Blackguard_]

nm

 

[Blackguard_]

But I don't believe this is an item that Jesus gave us any but the most general guidance on, so I don't think defending a right to own arms is a Christian calling per se.

Disagreed. He did tell his followers to get swords, and in the OT unless they were being oppressed, such as by Phillistines, the Israelites had private arms.

I don't think in Luke 22:36 Jesus was ordering the disciples to get swords and us guns, but along with the purse and bag he also tells them to get he is telling them and us to be prepared, including for our own defense.

Based on the Old and New Testament, it is clear personal defense weapon bans are ungodly. The right to own guns is most certainly Christian.

gives you an option for all situations, and it's an option that is less likely to get you arrested.

Not really. Martial arts don't give you any options past arms length and your strikes are inferior to bullets. And why would it make you less likely to get arrested?

If I could take 2 day class and become a Marital Arts expert, I'd do that instead of keeping a gun around.

I'd do that and keep a gun around.

A gun is not just for those who can't be Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee/Whomemever. Bullet beats fist. It would be awesome to combine gunhandling with the conditioning and reflexes of a top martial artist.

Also, some do combine martial arts and gunnery. People realized a long time ago they might have have to defend against hand-to-hand attacks even while armed, such as retention training against gun grab attempts.

Jesus never carried a weapon,

I don't think that says anything either way. Remember when he told Peter to put away his sword to not fight those arresting him he said he could have called on legions of angels if he wanted to fight. And of course, Jesus is God.

Pointing out Jesus doesn't carry a weapon is like pointing out Superman doesn't carry a weapon. If I were omnipotent and had an angelic army for a bodyguard, I might not carry a weapon around either.

And whether we choose to support the availability of tools for such defense (such as guns) is left to us.

I strongly disagree. Where a government-level weapon ban is mentioned in the Bible, it is by the Philistines to keep the Israelites unable to resist oppression.

"Not a blacksmith could be found in the whole land of Israel, because the Philistines had said, 'Otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears!'" 1 Samuel 13:19

Weapon availability was important to the Israelites, from the Patriarchs and their armed sons and servants to workers under Nehemiah wearing a sword as they rebuilt Jerusalem's wall.

It is Unchristian to support weapon bans. It is left to us as individuals how we want to defend ourselves, like I said, I do not take Luke 22:36 as a command to get a weapon, but it is clear government-level weapon bans are Ungodly.

Lots of biblical figures didn't carry weapons(and lots did), but only the Philistines banned them.

 

[MacFall]

Macfall suggests that martial arts might be useful in addition to having a gun, suggesting that the gun is your first line of defense.

If I suggested that, I didn't mean it. I think bearing arms and being capable at arms are a necessary part of doing all you can for personal safety, but if I had the choice to end a conflict without shooting someone, I would. If I had the choice to end any conflict without violence, I would. I don't mean to advocate anything close to a "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude. I believe in using the least necessary amount of force to repel a threat. But I do not believe in placing arbitrary limits on what a person with nothing but a weapon and his own judgment between himself and a threat may or may not do.

Ruckhard82: A government monopoly on food production starved at least 10 million Russians to death. Please don't come around me pushing for a government monopoly on firearms training; I'll have to decline most vehemently.

 

[Blackguard_]

I see no need for average citizens to carry weapons on their persons however.

Than why on Earth would cops need to?

If an average citizens doesn't need a gun to defend against criminals, the well-trained and experienced police sure as heck don't.

 

[MacFall]

Than why on Earth would cops need to?

If average citizens don't need a gun to defend against criminals, the well-trained and experienced police sure as heck don't.

I expect he thinks we little children don't need to carry guns because the paternal god-state is going to take care of it for us.

 

[Ruckhard82]

Than why on Earth would cops need to?

If an average citizens doesn't need a gun to defend against criminals, the well-trained and experienced police sure as heck don't.

There certainly are unarmed police forces in the world. Most of our training now focuses on less lethal weapons. That said, the average citizen doesn't need to go in search of some bloody tweaker that's knocked over 8 gas stations, I do.
I'm not overly thrilled with the idea of everyone running around with a TASER either. The victim might certainly be less traumatized next time I'm arresting a 30 year old soccer mom for whipping a weapon out on an 18 year old kid that was looking for his car down by the pier if that weapon was a TASER instead of a .380 auto. People gone mental with fear + a lack of proper training = bad news. Two day classes that consist of telling the student where the safety is and begging them not to walk about with a round chambered do not teach people how to use firearms as weapons.

TheTrash is quite correct: being aware of your surroundings and avoiding dangerous situations are far better forms of self defense than any firearm is ever going to be. If you have to have something there are many options besides firearms. A good pepper spray is very effective and requires little training to use properly. All without providing an attacker a deadly weapon when the CCW permit holder finds out in the moment of action that he/she is not ready to use deadly force after all. Most people aren't killers, and a firearm should never be employed by someone that isn't ready to kill without hesitation.

 

[Gym]

A taser and pepper spray don't incapicitate everyone. In fact I've personally seen a convict be hit with pepper spray AND a taser and keep on attacking someone as if it was only a bee sting.
Most people when they see a firearm drawn on them alone will stop.. an even greater percentage will stop after being hit by a round. Only a slim few will disregard a firearm wound.
Further more it's far more likely that a taser will misfire on you than a gun.
I've yet to see a gun misfire in person.. and I've fired THOUSANDS of rounds myself as well as seen others fire multiple.
But I can honestly say I've seen about a dozen Taser misfirings. One instance in which a taser misfired and the officer just so happened to reload and have another misfire resulting in a VERY bad scenario.

 

[Ruckhard82]

Nothing you've said here isn't every bit as true of firearms. I've seen a perp take a slug from a Glock 9mm in the shoulder and continue without missing a bloody step. Doesn't even have to be cranked up on PCP or meth. The adrenaline from the situation is more than enough to keep a lot of people going even after being shot. Being brassed off about the pain just inflicted is just a cherry on top.
Firearms can, and do, misfire all the time. More over is the reality of an untrained person under attack being quite unlikely to get to his/her weapon, chamber a round, take off the safety, and still have time to make any use of the thing. Unless a lot of criminals respond to Oi mate, I need a minute here to get my gun out, would you be ever so kind as to stop attacking me while I get ready? This should be sporting after all.
Why someone would bother to reload a TASER that failed and try it again would speak more to a lack of good training........

 

[Sketcher]

If you're only going to be shooting a 9mm, you'd better hit them in the head or chest cavity, not the shoulder. And you might as well use hollow points while you're at it.

 

[K9_Trainer]

I voted that I've never shot a firearm but I belief its a right, pro gun rights, and that I don't own a firearm.

I wouldn't mind getting a concealed weapons permit and a gun. I live at home with my parents but it is something I plan on doing before I move out on my own.

 

[Ruckhard82]

If you're only going to be shooting a 9mm, you'd better hit them in the head or chest cavity, not the shoulder. And you might as well use hollow points while you're at it.

Given the nature of most weapons that are realistic for conceal carry a 9mm is a large round. And of course, everyone with a CCW is an expert marksman that will, without fail, make clean head shots.....

This is exactly why John Doe on the bloody street doesn't need to carry a gun. The average CCW permit holder is untrained in proper use of weapons and doesn't put in the time at a range to be a decent shot anyway. Their guns are, at best, as dangerous to them as they are to any would be mugger.

 

[K9_Trainer]

You don't need pinpoint precision accuracy for a gun to be an effective weapon.

 

[Ruckhard82]

You don't need pinpoint precision accuracy for a gun to be an effective weapon.

Until your stray rounds kill someone that committed the terrible crime of setting down for a little telly without realizing some CCW permit holder was about to turn the alley below his flat into the wild wild west.......

 

[Gym]

I'll remember that when someone attacks me and ask the skel kindly to stand down as I draw bead on him with my gun