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Gun Control Debate

rturner76

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I am not in favor of people owning guns.
I am not either but I think about the fact that there are enough firearms to arm literally every man woman and child in the country there are so many guns out there that I have a hard time finding fault with someone who thinks a firearm would be a good tool to protect their family. Then I go back to the good ol' 10 commandments where it says "thou shall not kill." The ten commandments don't go into much detail about which situation it is acceptable to kill a person. At the end of the day, taking other scripture into account, as a Christian, I can see someone going either way when it comes to being committed to never taking a life or being committed to always protecting your loved ones.

A very debatable issue for the Christian community
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't disagree with this but I believe there are some Christians who refuse to kill period as in "thou shall not kill."
The actual command is thou shalt not murder. There are provisions in the law for killing in self defense or even just defending your property, and also for manslaughter (killing on accident)
Many Christians believe there is nothing noble or godly in the taking of a life.
Of course it's not noble, unless it's in defense of another person not yourself, or in executing the law. You do realize that when Jesus returns to judge the world the faithful will actually cheer on the destruction of the wicked right? When Babylon is reduced to ashes, the saints celebrate, and that is the deaths of millions probably. When the water all turns to blood (and you cannot survive drinking blood), it's going to kill a lot of people, and the saints and angels praise God for His judgement being just.

But yes, normally the taking of a life is a somber affair.
Yes, still many Christians believe it is wrong to take a life.

Could he have defended himself? I'm sure he could have toppled the entire Roman empire. But he chose peace. "Blessed are the peacemakers.:
Again Jesus was dying not because He was getting robbed but to pay the penalty of death for our sins. Totally different.
However Jesus defended Himself prior to being crucified a few times (as He was prophecied to die a specific way, and on Passover, dying earlier by getting stoned would have meant Jesus did not fulfill prophecy and God would have called it wrong and been shown to be false, and Jesus not truly the Messiah)

Luke 4
28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

Jesus preached about gentiles being saved, and the Pharisees wanted to throw Him off a cliff and kill Him. But he walked through them and they weren't able to.
If you or I tried that.. we'd just get thrown off a cliff.

John 8
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

We can't just disappear and avoid a crowd of people wanting to kill us.
Jesus did so 3 times actually, in John 10 as well.
We don't have those means.
so when Jesus was going to die, and not be on this world anymore, He told His disciples to buy a sword, even if it required selling their cloak.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I am not either but I think about the fact that there are enough firearms to arm literally every man woman and child in the country there are so many guns out there that I have a hard time finding fault with someone who thinks a firearm would be a good tool to protect their family. Then I go back to the good ol' 10 commandments where it says "thou shall not kill." The ten commandments don't go into much detail about which situation it is acceptable to kill a person. At the end of the day, taking other scripture into account, as a Christian, I can see someone going either way when it comes to being committed to never taking a life or being committed to always protecting your loved ones.

A very debatable issue for the Christian community
It follows the same logic as some new age shops. There are demons out there, so buy a demon statue to scare the demons away. .. but following the same logic, doesn't this just invite bigger guns into the equation?
 
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rturner76

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You do realize that when Jesus returns to judge the world the faithful will actually cheer on the destruction of the wicked right?
Honestly, I didn't know that. Where is that written for my own edification?
Jesus preached about gentiles being saved, and the Pharisees wanted to throw Him off a cliff and kill Him. But he walked through them and they weren't able to.
If you or I tried that.. we'd just get thrown off a cliff
Instead, he was beaten mercilessly and crucified. I'd probably rather just be thrown off a cliff.
so when Jesus was going to die, and not be on this world anymore, He told His disciples to buy a sword, even if it required selling their cloak
Luke 22:36 is a Scripture that has evoked much debate among biblical scholars and Christians alike. Some believe that Jesus’ command to His disciples to “sell your cloak and buy a sword” entails metaphorical advice to prepare them for the perils of ministry after His crucifixion and ascension; others take this Bible verse literally as divine permission to carry arms and use them.

That being said, Jesus also encourages us in Matthew 16:24 to pick up our crosses, deny ourselves, and follow Him.

We cannot carry a cross and hold a sword at the same time,

I think this says it best. You can hold your sword (pistol) or your cross but not both.

 
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rturner76

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It follows the same logic as some new age shops. There are demons out there, so buy a demon statue to scare the demons away. .. but following the same logic, doesn't this just invite bigger guns into the equation?
I'm not sure if I completely understand your post but is it a question like should we use tools of the devil to fight the devil?
 
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Jamdoc

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Honestly, I didn't know that. Where is that written for my own edification?
Revelation 16
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
So, the wicked of the world have made martyrs of the people of God for years at this point, and angels turn all the water to blood, and then praise God that THIS was His judgement, that it was fitting because of what the people on Earth had done to the saints during the great tribulation (5th seal, and the mark of the beast), so they deserved it, even though these judgements kill everything in the seas, all the fish, the whales, seals, all marine life is killed, and Angels praise God for doing it.

Revelation 18
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
So those on the Earth mourn the destruction of Babylon
But in heaven..
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
They rejoice because God avenged them.

and Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
I mean we're talking the deaths of millions of people probably, but because they deserved it, God is praised for them all being killed, it is righteous judgement.

Realize that when Jesus comes back.. it involves Jesus treading the winepress of His wrath, killing people, the same Jesus that gave up His life and was nailed to the cross to pay for the sins of you and I, returns to Earth in WRATH, and avenges perhaps you and I being martyred at the hands of those who dwell on the Earth and worship the antichrist.
Read Revelation 14:14-20, Isaiah 63, and Revelation 19:19-21
The Lamb of God is also the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and He is still the same Jesus, but He will stain His robes with the blood of His enemies.
It is a side of Jesus that many people I understand are uncomfortable with, but it is Jesus.

Now should we pass judgement and condemnation on other people take the law into our own hands? God forbid. But total 100% pacifism is not what is taught in the bible either.


Instead, he was beaten mercilessly and crucified. I'd probably rather just be thrown off a cliff.

Luke 22:36 is a Scripture that has evoked much debate among biblical scholars and Christians alike. Some believe that Jesus’ command to His disciples to “sell your cloak and buy a sword” entails metaphorical advice to prepare them for the perils of ministry after His crucifixion and ascension; others take this Bible verse literally as divine permission to carry arms and use them.

That being said, Jesus also encourages us in Matthew 16:24 to pick up our crosses, deny ourselves, and follow Him.

We cannot carry a cross and hold a sword at the same time,

I think this says it best. You can hold your sword (pistol) or your cross but not both.

again
there's a difference in dying to religious persecution and being a Martyr, that is being a witness to Jesus Christ. that's testimony.
Dying in a random carjacking is not testimony, your religious convictions are not even why you're being assaulted. Bearing arms is deterrence mostly, and should not desire to use weapons to defend yourself, but Jesus wasn't just telling people to lay down their lives when they get robbed.
the message was always in response to persecution which is different.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I don't disagree with this but I believe there are some Christians who refuse to kill period as in "thou shall not kill."

Many Christians believe there is nothing noble or godly in the taking of a life.

Yes, still many Christians believe it is wrong to take a life.

Could he have defended himself? I'm sure he could have toppled the entire Roman empire. But he chose peace. "Blessed are the peacemakers.:
Here is the way I look at taking a life in self defense. If a Christian wishes to do that and they are the only people that will be directly affected ( that is to say they are the only ones facing a deadly threat at that time I have no issue with that, BUT if there are other people facing the deadly threat THEN you do what you can to prevent it that is the right thing to do.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I am not either but I think about the fact that there are enough firearms to arm literally every man woman and child in the country there are so many guns out there that I have a hard time finding fault with someone who thinks a firearm would be a good tool to protect their family. Then I go back to the good ol' 10 commandments where it says "thou shall not kill." The ten commandments don't go into much detail about which situation it is acceptable to kill a person. At the end of the day, taking other scripture into account, as a Christian, I can see someone going either way when it comes to being committed to never taking a life or being committed to always protecting your loved ones.

A very debatable issue for the Christian community
The commandment is do not murder. Murder the the taking of a human life with malice of forethought without lawful excuse. Killing someone who is trying to kill you, yours or even a third party not involved in the act is not murder.
 
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rturner76

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Here is the way I look at taking a life in self defense. If a Christian wishes to do that and they are the only people that will be directly affected ( that is to say they are the only ones facing a deadly threat at that time I have no issue with that, BUT if there are other people facing the deadly threat THEN you do what you can to prevent it that is the right thing to do.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying here. It also comes back to the Bible saying in John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

That would seem to indicate that you put your life on the line to defend your loved ones.
 
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rturner76

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The commandment is do not murder. Murder the the taking of a human life with malice of forethought without lawful excuse. Killing someone who is trying to kill you, yours or even a third party not involved in the act is not murder.
I don't deny your point of view is valid. I have always been exposed to the KJV of the Bible which says "thou shall not kill." However, I admit that I am not a biblical scholar that would be able to decipher the exact Greek or Latin interpretation of what constitutes kill versus murder. I think a pacifist Christian would rather be killed than kill. I think there is room for both points of view.
 
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Fantine

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John, what you are reading are comments from people who have been inculcated with a sort of paranoia that keeps them armed and robs them of peace of mind.
I am in my early 70's. Spent 7 of those years in NYC. Riding subways. Had summer jobs in the courts while in school.
While I choose friends wisely and lead a reasonably prudent life, no one in my home has ever had a gun.
One son was in a dangerous situation once. Home from college, he visited a friend. About five guys were visiting and drinking.
Someone they had gone to school with who had gotten into drugs and dropped out crashed their little party. One of the guys was a little drunk and began calling the drug dropout a loser. Druggie pulls out a gun and holds it to guy's head.
My son stayed calm and used his good communications skills to get the gunman to leave peaceably.
Recently I looked the gunman up on FB. Sober. Married.
My son saved two lives...without a gun. He would make a good hostage negotiator.
 
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rturner76

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John, what you are reading are comments from people who have been inculcated with a sort of paranoia that keeps them armed and robs them of peace of mind.
I am in my early 70's. Spent 7 of those years in NYC. Riding subways. Had summer jobs in the courts while in school.
While I choose friends wisely and lead a reasonably prudent life, no one in my home has ever had a gun.
One son was in a dangerous situation once. Home from college, he visited a friend. About five guys were visiting and drinking.
Someone they had gone to school with who had gotten into drugs and dropped out crashed their little party. One of the guys was a little drunk and began calling the drug dropout a loser. Druggie pulls out a gun and holds it to guy's head.
My son stayed calm and used his good communications skills to get the gunman to leave peaceably.
Recently I looked the gunman up on FB. Sober. Married.
My son saved two lives...without a gun. He would make a good hostage negotiator.
I think this is the ideal Christian response. To save lives without taking lives is something I can't see any fault with only blessings. The Christians who want to carry a gun to defend themselves but I don't think they are doing God's work by killing rather than converting like your son did. IMO it's up to God to slay evildoers. Many of them either are slain while committing an evil act or rot in prison for most of their lives.

Having said all of that, I can still see the logic in taking down a "bad guy" rather than standing by while a "bad guy takes down an innocent or two or like in the case of the Las Vegas shooter where he killed sixty-one people and injured eight hundred sixty-one people. I can see the logic in not being the one to kill a killer because thou shall not kill but I can also see how taking him down would have protected sixty-one souls from perishing. I think it's a complicated topic.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I'm not sure if I completely understand your post but is it a question like should we use tools of the devil to fight the devil?
If you want to solve a problem, you need to address it with an opposing premise of application.

If you want to survive within a problem, you become part of it.
 
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rturner76

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If you want to solve a problem, you need to address it with an opposing premise of application.

If you want to survive within a problem, you become part of it.
Uh, not sure I get it. It would seem like surviving a problem would be advantageous when being shot at.
 
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dogs4thewin

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John, what you are reading are comments from people who have been inculcated with a sort of paranoia that keeps them armed and robs them of peace of mind.
I am in my early 70's. Spent 7 of those years in NYC. Riding subways. Had summer jobs in the courts while in school.
While I choose friends wisely and lead a reasonably prudent life, no one in my home has ever had a gun.
One son was in a dangerous situation once. Home from college, he visited a friend. About five guys were visiting and drinking.
Someone they had gone to school with who had gotten into drugs and dropped out crashed their little party. One of the guys was a little drunk and began calling the drug dropout a loser. Druggie pulls out a gun and holds it to guy's head.
My son stayed calm and used his good communications skills to get the gunman to leave peaceably.
Recently I looked the gunman up on FB. Sober. Married.
My son saved two lives...without a gun. He would make a good hostage negotiator.
Great when it can be done, but sometimes to save lives you must take lives. That is NOT to say that there are times when a gun is used correctly in self defense when there may have been other options, but with some people violence is all they understand . Also, it does not have to be a firearm to be justified to shoot the person. If you are coming at someone with a knife, a pipe or even a baseball bat and the person uses lethal force it will almost certainly be ruled justified by any reasonable DA or jury. You can also be justified in using deadly force to protect anganist certain other crimes. For example, one of the few times you may use deadly force to defend property is if you catch someone you reasonably believe to be preparing to commit arson many states will allow you to shoot in self defense and you will not face charges. Rape robbery, and kidnapping are three other crimes that fall short of homicide where usually it will be considered a justified homicide if a person is killed in the commission of those crimes even by a third party. For example, my BIL to be is a concealed weapon carrier if he caught someone trying to say kidnap someone while he was out with us, my sister or even by himself and he shot and killed or shot and wounded the would be kidnapper it would be ruled a justified homicide or assault even if he had NO idea who the would-be victim was and had seen neither them or the kidnapper in his life.
 
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rturner76

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What is misunderstood is in the gospels.
Oh, I didn't realize that was a signature. I thought it was part of your post. It's nothing I would be offended by. I just didn't quite understand it. But I don't understand many things admittedly.
 
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