Gun Control Debate

[Divide]

So if I answer a knock with a gun I get shot by the police, if I answer without a gun, I get shot by the drunk neighbor. Got it.

You didn't think this through very far, did you? You can answer the door with a gun without being shot. All you have to do is to keep it out of sight until after you have identifed the caller as friend or foe.

Who answers the door without a gun nowadays? Especially if one is not expecting anybody.

I have a riddle: What is a pistol for?

Answer: To fight your way back to the Rifle that you shouldn't have laid down in the first place!

Sorry, I'm from out west and we got used to answering the door armed years ago, lol. I carry around my house! A couple times it was policeman for some reason and I always disarmed before opening the door those times. One time I was wearing two .45's and opened the door too fast and it was two cops. That was scary but I had a vest on and so they couldn't actually see them. And I didn't think it would be a wise decision to announce that I armed, so I just played it cool and talked to them. (My BIL had parked blocking the neighbors alley, so I had him go move it). I didn't get shot. No officers were harmed. The neighbor is prolly still mad, lol.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

You didn't think this through very far, did you? You can answer the door with a gun without being shot. All you have to do is to keep it out of sight until after you have identifed the caller as friend or foe.

Who answers the door without a gun nowadays? Especially if one is not expecting anybody.

I have a riddle: What is a pistol for?

Answer: To fight your way back to the Rifle that you shouldn't have laid down in the first place!

Sorry, I'm from out west and we got used to answering the door armed years ago, lol. I carry around my house! A couple times it was policeman for some reason and I always disarmed before opening the door those times. One time I was wearing two .45's and opened the door too fast and it was two cops. That was scary but I had a vest on and so they couldn't actually see them. And I didn't think it would be a wise decision to announce that I armed, so I just played it cool and talked to them. (My BIL had parked blocking the neighbors alley, so I had him go move it). I didn't get shot. No officers were harmed. The neighbor is prolly still mad, lol.

As a Orthodox reader, I am bound by this
Canon LXV.
If any clergyman shall strike anyone in a contest, and kill him with one blow, let him be deposed for his violence. If a layman do so, let him be excommunicated.

 

[Divide]

As a Orthodox reader, I am bound by this
Canon LXV.
If any clergyman shall strike anyone in a contest, and kill him with one blow, let him be deposed for his violence. If a layman do so, let him be excommunicated.

Isn't this outside the scope of protection though? More to do with contests like duels and gladiator type stuff. I don't think this speaks towards protecting your family and those in your charge. This is a dangerous planet!

Do you feel as if the father in the home is to protect the family? I would think so, but I understand the importance of depending upon our Lord for protection and I don't disagree with that, however, the way I see it is, personal weapons are for use when there is no time to pray. I *think*. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[Divide]

In the OT we see that the Lord had them with a sword in one hand and building a wall with the other.

 

[RDKirk]

That's a problem with law enforcement, not guns.

A cause that both the left and right should rally around is holding police more accountable. The George Floyd situation could have been that moment of unity, but activists ruined it by pretending police brutality is a racial thing. It's not. It's an abuse of authority thing that affects plenty of white people in addition to black people (and others).

For some reason, white people in general are not concerned when other white people are abused by the police.

One writer has asserted that because white people are so inculcated with the belief that the police operate solely for their benefit that when they hear of even the most blatant police abuse even upon white people, their brains tell them, "Somehow, that guy must have deserved it."

It's interesting that even white liberals do not pick up on police abuse of white people in a non-racial context.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Isn't this outside the scope of protection though? More to do with contests like duels and gladiator type stuff. I don't think this speaks towards protecting your family and those in your charge. This is a dangerous planet!

Do you feel as if the father in the home is to protect the family? I would think so, but I understand the importance of depending upon our Lord for protection and I don't disagree with that, however, the way I see it is, personal weapons are for use when there is no time to pray. I *think*. Unless I'm missing something.

No, it is absolute and I keep in mind the various holy martyred families.

The Holy Martyr Felicitas with her Seven Sons, Januarius, Felix, Philip, Silvanus, Alexander, Vitalius and Marcial. Saint Felicitas was born of a rich Roman family. She boldly confessed before the emperor and civil authorities that she was a Christian. The pagan priests said that she was insulting the gods by spreading Christianity. Saint Felicitas and her sons were turned over to the Prefect Publius for torture.

Saint Felicitas witnessed the suffering of her sons, and prayed to God that they would stand firm and enter the heavenly Kingdom before her. All the sons died as martyrs before the eyes of their mother, who was being tortured herself.

Saint Felicitas soon followed her sons in martyrdom for Christ. They suffered at Rome about the year 164.

 

[dogs4thewin]

No, it is absolute and I keep in mind the various holy martyred families.

The Holy Martyr Felicitas with her Seven Sons, Januarius, Felix, Philip, Silvanus, Alexander, Vitalius and Marcial. Saint Felicitas was born of a rich Roman family. She boldly confessed before the emperor and civil authorities that she was a Christian. The pagan priests said that she was insulting the gods by spreading Christianity. Saint Felicitas and her sons were turned over to the Prefect Publius for torture.

Saint Felicitas witnessed the suffering of her sons, and prayed to God that they would stand firm and enter the heavenly Kingdom before her. All the sons died as martyrs before the eyes of their mother, who was being tortured herself.

Saint Felicitas soon followed her sons in martyrdom for Christ. They suffered at Rome about the year 164.

A martyr is someone who dies for what they believe in usually religious sense dying because some crazy guy comes into your house and attacks you and yours for no reason is not being a martyr. In fact, I have NO respect for a deceased "victim" who died and let others die because they refused to protect them from such an attack.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Archbishop Anthony Bloom in his classic book, Beginning to Pray, wrote about a Russian woman whose husband was being hunted down by the Bolsheviks during the Russian civil war. Her neighbor, a young woman, knocked on her door late at night, to tell her that the Bolsheviks were coming in the morning and that she should flee. She responded how she was to get away with her young children. Her neighbor replied that she would stay in her place and tell the Bolsheviks that she was the one they were looking for. As a result, the woman fled with her children and escaped while her young neighbor gave her life. She would not be considered a martyr but is recognized as Christ-like who gave her life so that others might live. Orthodox have a special designation for those killed but specifically for their Christian faith, Passion-Bearer.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. - Christ

The first time I was reading this was getting ready for work around 6am on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, 2001. As I watched the towers fall, I could only think of those who may have sacrificed themselves to try to help others escape. I was blessed to attend the 5 year anniversary with my seminary class in 2006 to visit the Greek Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas, which was destroyed when the towers collapsed.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Archbishop Anthony Bloom in his classic book, Beginning to Pray, wrote about a Russian woman whose husband was being hunted down by the Bolsheviks during the Russian civil war. Her neighbor, a young woman, knocked on her door late at night, to tell her that the Bolsheviks were coming in the morning and that she should flee. She responded how she was to get away with her young children. Her neighbor replied that she would stay in her place and tell the Bolsheviks that she was the one they were looking for. As a result, the woman fled with her children and escaped while her young neighbor gave her life. She would not be considered a martyr but is recognized as Christ-like who gave her life so that others might live. Orthodox have a special designation for those killed but specifically for their Christian faith, Passion-Bearer.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. - Christ

The first time I was reading this was getting ready for work around 6am on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, 2001. As I watched the towers fall, I could only think of those who may have sacrificed themselves to try to help others escape. I was blessed to attend the 5 year anniversary with my seminary class in 2006 to visit the Greek Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas, which was destroyed when the towers collapsed.

View attachment 330673

If you die so others may live that is good and Christ like if you die because you allow someone to kill you ( when others are involved that is not Christ like nor is it dying so others can live oftentimes. Now, if it is just you as the only victim and you choose to not defend yourself that is between you and God, but where others are involved and you do not make an effort to protect THEM from violence I have a hard time having ANY respect for you whether you live or not. In other words if you live, but others are fatally wounded I still do not have respect for you and even if you WERE to die I still have no respect for that action.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

If you die so others may live that is good and Christ like if you die because you allow someone to kill you ( when others are involved that is not Christ like nor is it dying so others can live oftentimes. Now, if it is just you as the only victim and you choose to not defend yourself that is between you and God, but where others are involved and you do not make an effort to protect THEM from violence I have a hard time having ANY respect for you whether you live or not. In other words if you live, but others are fatally wounded I still do not have respect for you and even if you WERE to die I still have no respect for that action.

All that matters to me is that I am found worthy at the Judgement Seat. Obviously, you don't and I will pray for you.

 

[dogs4thewin]

All that matters to me is that I am found worthy at the Judgement Seat. Obviously, you don't and I will pray for you.

so is it your postition then that taking a life in self defense does not make you worthy on judgement day?

 

[Eschatologist]

So if I answer a knock with a gun I get shot by the police, if I answer without a gun, I get shot by the drunk neighbor. Got it.

No. If you answer the door with a gun and the cops shoot you over it, then that is a wrongful action by the police that requires justice be served against the cops. Justice can be pursued through the system, although if the system fails to hold said police accountable.... well, that's when guns become handy for other reasons.

The Founders didn't ask permission from the British when they mounted a revolution. They were only able to revolt because they were armed.

The premise of our government is based on the people holding it accountable. If accountability can't be established through the system, then that's where the 2nd Amendment applies. More commonly, guns are used for self-defense, but our right to bear arms is based on defending ourselves from the government. All disarmed populations are subjects, not citizens, precisely because they can't defend themselves from their government.

 

[Eschatologist]

For some reason, white people in general are not concerned when other white people are abused by the police.

One writer has asserted that because white people are so inculcated with the belief that the police operate solely for their benefit that when they hear of even the most blatant police abuse even upon white people, their brains tell them, "Somehow, that guy must have deserved it."

It's interesting that even white liberals do not pick up on police abuse of white people in a non-racial context.

That's part of it. More specifically, the American left is indoctrinated in race Marxism. Most on the left don't even realize the origins of their beliefs, because the talking points go back to the Frankfurt School with people like Herbert Marcuse. Even the left of other First World nations is less specifically affected by race Marxism, although American academia and media has exported it somewhat to the United Kingdom, Canada, and parts of continental Europe. Overall, the ideology obsesses over "intersectionality" and puts straight white cisgender males at the bottom of the hierarchy of concern -- even more so if the person is also Christian and conservative.

Now, if the person ticks some box of the "oppressed", suddenly, it's a big deal. That can be anything from gay to trans to non-binary etc. Identity reigns supreme.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

Another murderer with a gun..........When society places little to no value on human life - this is not unexpected behavior...

Cops close in on Atlanta gunman, 24, who killed one and injured four

Officials have named the suspect as Deion Patterson, 24, and are warning members of the public not to approach him.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Eschatologist]

No, it is absolute and I keep in mind the various holy martyred families.

The Holy Martyr Felicitas with her Seven Sons, Januarius, Felix, Philip, Silvanus, Alexander, Vitalius and Marcial. Saint Felicitas was born of a rich Roman family. She boldly confessed before the emperor and civil authorities that she was a Christian. The pagan priests said that she was insulting the gods by spreading Christianity. Saint Felicitas and her sons were turned over to the Prefect Publius for torture.

Saint Felicitas witnessed the suffering of her sons, and prayed to God that they would stand firm and enter the heavenly Kingdom before her. All the sons died as martyrs before the eyes of their mother, who was being tortured herself.

Saint Felicitas soon followed her sons in martyrdom for Christ. They suffered at Rome about the year 164.

Good thing I'm not an Orthodox believer then. My interpretation of Christianity is such that I believe God intended us to defend ourselves from all others, whether it is a common citizen or the government itself.

It may not be a Biblical quote, but it still rings true: "Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject." -- John Stuart Mill

 

[Eschatologist]

Archbishop Anthony Bloom in his classic book, Beginning to Pray, wrote about a Russian woman whose husband was being hunted down by the Bolsheviks during the Russian civil war. Her neighbor, a young woman, knocked on her door late at night, to tell her that the Bolsheviks were coming in the morning and that she should flee. She responded how she was to get away with her young children. Her neighbor replied that she would stay in her place and tell the Bolsheviks that she was the one they were looking for. As a result, the woman fled with her children and escaped while her young neighbor gave her life. She would not be considered a martyr but is recognized as Christ-like who gave her life so that others might live. Orthodox have a special designation for those killed but specifically for their Christian faith, Passion-Bearer.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. - Christ

The first time I was reading this was getting ready for work around 6am on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, 2001. As I watched the towers fall, I could only think of those who may have sacrificed themselves to try to help others escape. I was blessed to attend the 5 year anniversary with my seminary class in 2006 to visit the Greek Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas, which was destroyed when the towers collapsed.

View attachment 330673

Context is important. The woman who gave her life probably didn't have any suitable weapons or training with said weapons to mount a defense against the Bolsheviks. Someone with access to weapons and skill with them should use said skills to save others.

So, martyrdom sometimes comes down to circumstances. It doesn't mean this is a one-size-fits-all edict. Some of us are meant to be martyrs, while others are meant to be warriors. I'd rather be a warrior, personally. The survival rate tends to be better.

 

[RDKirk]

That's part of it. More specifically, the American left is indoctrinated in race Marxism. Most on the left don't even realize the origins of their beliefs, because the talking points go back to the Frankfurt School with people like Herbert Marcuse. Even the left of other First World nations is less specifically affected by race Marxism, although American academia and media has exported it somewhat to the United Kingdom, Canada, and parts of continental Europe. Overall, the ideology obsesses over "intersectionality" and puts straight white cisgender males at the bottom of the hierarchy of concern -- even more so if the person is also Christian and conservative.

Now, if the person ticks some box of the "oppressed", suddenly, it's a big deal. That can be anything from gay to trans to non-binary etc. Identity reigns supreme.

That has nothing to do with why white people don't protest police abuse against them.

 

[Eschatologist]

That has nothing to do with why white people don't protest police abuse against them.

It has everything to do with it. That ideology devalues most whites because they are the "oppressors."

 

[RDKirk]

It has everything to do with it. That ideology devalues most whites because they are the "oppressors."

Right wing whites are less likely to object to police brutality against themselves than left wing whites are. So what's your explanation for that?

 

[Eschatologist]

Right wing whites are less likely to object to police brutality against themselves than left wing whites are. So what's your explanation for that?

Because some right wingers are authoritarians. They don't realize the state is ultimately everyone's enemy, except for the elite.

One of the pitfalls of conservatism is that it respects authority too much. The only authority deserving of unconditional respect is God. All earthly authorities must be questioned.