GUILTY

[Hans Blaster]

Well yes but that will expose corruption on both sides and show that they are both as guilty as each other and none have the higher moral ground.

Both sides of what? I will feel just find on the moral high ground to big business cheats that get charged.

 

[stevevw]

Both sides of what? I will feel just find on the moral high ground to big business cheats that get charged.

Both sides of politics. Both sides cook the books in different ways. Its just that the Left are better at concealing it because they are in the power seat. Everyone knows that and have done for years. Both sides cannot be trusted at the moment.

If your taking some moral stand on Trump and then siding with Biden as the moral superior then your deluded by bias. Biden and the Left have just as much if not more to answer for.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Both sides of politics. Both sides cook the books in different ways. Its just that the Left are better at concealing it because they are in the power seat. Everyone knows that and have done for years. Both sides cannot be trusted at the moment.

The comment was on all the big business people cheating (you said they all "cook the books"). Not at any point after did I say a thing about politics.

If your taking some moral stand on Trump and then siding with Biden as the moral superior then your deluded by bias. Biden and the Left have just as much if not more to answer for.

Irrelevant. This was about business cheaters. You bring in politics.

 

[A2SG]

Both sides of politics. Both sides cook the books in different ways. Its just that the Left are better at concealing it because they are in the power seat.

I assume you have some kind of proof of this book cooking, as well as the concealment of it, otherwise it's nothing more than speculation based on....well, nothing but suspicion, and a revealing lack of proof.

Everyone knows that and have done for years. Both sides cannot be trusted at the moment.

No, everyone doesn't know anything of the sort. On the other hand, what everyone does know is Trump has been found guilty of fraud multiple times, and he was found guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business documents in the first degree. As to what "everyone knows" about Biden's supposed crimes....well, there's nothing known there. Suspected, sure. Assumed, absolutely. Completely made up....most likely.

If your taking some moral stand on Trump and then siding with Biden as the moral superior then your deluded by bias. Biden and the Left have just as much if not more to answer for.

Tell you what, list the specific crimes or unlawful activities President Biden has been found guilty of, and we'll talk.

-- A2SG, you want to compare the two...compare like to like....conviction to conviction.....

 

[stevevw]

The comment was on all the big business people cheating (you said they all "cook the books"). Not at any point after did I say a thing about politics.
Irrelevant. This was about business cheaters. You bring in politics.

The point was about Trump, Trumps business ability and his business fraud relating to his political status. Of course it was about politics. That is the only reason it was brought up to discredit Trump as a polititian.

I am saying if people want to bring that up and use it to discredit Trump as a polititian then this also means scrutinising all polititians. Especially the ones, the Party using that to discredit Trump.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The point about was about Trump, Trumps business ability and his business fraud relating to his political status. Of course it was about politics. That is the only reason it was brought up to discredit Trump as a polititian.

You said all of the big business people cook the books. How is that about politics?

I am saying if people want to bring that up and use it to discredit Trump as a polititian then this also means scrutinising all polititians. Especially the ones, the Party using that to discredit Trump.

No one's is stopping anyone. Certainly not me.

 

[stevevw]

I assume you have some kind of proof of this book cooking, as well as the concealment of it, otherwise it's nothing more than speculation based on....well, nothing but suspicion, and a revealing lack of proof.

Well that spectualtion is enough to have a tangible effect on voters who don't trust polititians. Surveys show voters don't trust polititians. Why do they not trust polititians. Because they believe they lie and do stuff behind the scenes that are more about keeping themselves in power even if that means compromising ethics.

Voter confidence at record low, says report
Voters say they “almost never” trust governments to put country before party or politicians to tell the truth when in a tight corner.

Sir John Curtice: Damaged politics sees voter trust at record low

New research finds voters "almost never" trust politicians to tell the truth or put the UK first.

www.bbc.com

Americans’ Dismal Views of the Nation’s Politics
Majorities say the political process is dominated by special interests, flooded with campaign cash and mired in partisan warfare. Elected officials are widely viewed as self-serving and ineffective.

Just 4% of U.S. adults say the political system is working extremely or very well. Positive views of many governmental and political institutions are at historic lows. And more Americans have an unfavorable than favorable opinion of the Supreme Court – the first time that has occurred in polling going back to the late 1980s. When asked to sum up their feelings about politics in a word or phrase 79% use negative or critical words, with “divisive” and “corrupt” coming up most frequently.

Money in politics emerges again and again as a major source of public frustration. Most say Members of Congress are widely seen as mixing financial interests with their work.

Americans’ Dismal Views of the Nation’s Politics

Americans’ views of politics and elected officials are unrelentingly negative, with little hope of improvement on the horizon. 65% of Americans say they always or often feel exhausted when thinking about politics. By contrast, just 10% say they always or often feel hopeful about politics.

www.pewresearch.org

I don't want to get into the specific of the corruption within government. But we all know this is the case. Do you honestly think for example there was no dishonesty with Hunter Biden, some covering up of what was really going on. What about Clinton and his carrying ons. What about the dirty deals behind closed doors with big corps and selling military to terrorist ect ect ect. The system is corrupt.

The point is we don't need to go into any specific because what counts is the perception of voters. Voters are not stupid and how they percieve actually reflects the truth. They sense that things are being covered up and dirty deals are being done. That power corrupts. To say they are deluded is just part of how the system tries to make it go away without facing up.

No, everyone doesn't know anything of the sort.

Yes they do, look at the polls, look at the deail of why they don't trust or have confidence in polititians. This is reality, this is how they really see whats going on. Its real enough to have a tangible effect on how people vote or don't vote for that matter.

On the other hand, what everyone does know is Trump has been found guilty of fraud multiple times, and he was found guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business documents in the first degree.

Basically it amounts to fiddling the books which is usually a minor crime. I'd say doing a backdoor deal to sell arms to terrorist is worse. "id say having a son who people would know about his shady deals and covering that up is just as bad if not worse. So we can keep going down this rabbit hole if you want. That is is exactly what is going to happen if this game is played.

As to what "everyone knows" about Biden's supposed crimes....well, there's nothing known there. Suspected, sure. Assumed, absolutely. Completely made up....most likely.

Most likely. See how its a double standard. Suspected sure, why is it suspected. Is is that perception that people reflect in the distrust of polititians in surveys. Its real, not imagined.

How about we have the same level of a witch hunt on Biden as Trump so we can make sure the suspicion is not well founded. But of course that is not going to happen because Biden has the power of the system at his disposal. I should say the puppetmasters pulling Bidens strings do. Just the fact there is a cognitively impaired president is a concern because it means who is actually running things.

Tell you what, list the specific crimes or unlawful activities President Biden has been found guilty of, and we'll talk.

Unfortunately we can't as unlike Trump who was witch hunted we can't do that at the moment to expose what is really going on. Like I said anyone who thinks there was not some prior knowledge and something fishy going on with all that Hunter Biden stuff is either naieve or just plain in denial and has bias. But the truth will eventually come out.

-- A2SG, you want to compare the two...compare like to like....conviction to conviction.....

Actually once parties or polititians start taking the moral higher ground all behaviour becomes open for scrutiny.

I mean what did Trump say "he knows the systems corrupt because he is involved in it". I think that was what people related to despite that he was also implying himself. That he actually acknowledged it when the Left pretend they are holier than thou and don't do the same.

 

[A2SG]

Well that spectualtion is enough to have a tangible effect on voters who don't trust polititians. Surveys show voters don't trust polititians. Why do they not trust polititians. Because they believe they lie and do stuff behind the scenes that are more about keeping themselves in power even if that means compromising ethics.

I take the lack of proof to indicate there is none. So, it IS a lie.

Proving...what, exactly? That lying about politicians proves politicians lie? Even the ones who aren't lying, but are being lied about?

Voter confidence at record low, says report
Voters say they “almost never” trust governments to put country before party or politicians to tell the truth when in a tight corner.

Sir John Curtice: Damaged politics sees voter trust at record low

New research finds voters "almost never" trust politicians to tell the truth or put the UK first.

www.bbc.com

Americans’ Dismal Views of the Nation’s Politics
Majorities say the political process is dominated by special interests, flooded with campaign cash and mired in partisan warfare. Elected officials are widely viewed as self-serving and ineffective.

Just 4% of U.S. adults say the political system is working extremely or very well. Positive views of many governmental and political institutions are at historic lows. And more Americans have an unfavorable than favorable opinion of the Supreme Court – the first time that has occurred in polling going back to the late 1980s. When asked to sum up their feelings about politics in a word or phrase 79% use negative or critical words, with “divisive” and “corrupt” coming up most frequently.

Money in politics emerges again and again as a major source of public frustration. Most say Members of Congress are widely seen as mixing financial interests with their work.

Americans’ Dismal Views of the Nation’s Politics

Americans’ views of politics and elected officials are unrelentingly negative, with little hope of improvement on the horizon. 65% of Americans say they always or often feel exhausted when thinking about politics. By contrast, just 10% say they always or often feel hopeful about politics.

www.pewresearch.org

Considering that, by your account, lying about a politician proves they're lying (somehow), I can understand how you seem to think this perception is created.

Do you have a suggestion for combatting it? Or would that involve more lying about lying? An infinite lying loop?

I don't want to get into the specific of the corruption within government. But we all know this is the case.

Well, you're asserting it. To "know" something implies factual knowledge, and you've offered no facts.

Do you honestly think for example there was no dishonesty with Hunter Biden, some covering up of what was really going on. What about Clinton and his carrying ons. What about the dirty deals behind closed doors with big corps and selling military to terrorist ect ect ect. The system is corrupt.

You can believe anything you like. But without any actual evidence, you've got nothing.

Which is why evidence is so important. It's the only way to counter the infinite lying loop you mentioned earlier.

The point is we don't need to go into any specific because what counts is the perception of voters.

Perception is important, facts are not. Got it.

Voters are not stupid and how they percieve actually reflects the truth.

By this logic, if you believe Trump isn't guilty of 34 criminal felonies, then your perception reflects the truth.

I think we may have cracked the MAGA code here.

They sense that things are being covered up and dirty deals are being done. That power corrupts. To say they are deluded is just part of how the system tries to make it go away without facing up.

But if they perceive that they aren't deluded, then they aren't. Perception is what counts, it reflects the truth, remember?

Yes they do, look at the polls, look at the deail of why they don't trust or have confidence in polititians. This is reality, this is how they really see whats going on. Its real enough to have a tangible effect on how people vote or don't vote for that matter.

You're conflating knowledge with delusion. You know that, right?

Basically it amounts to fiddling the books which is usually a minor crime.

Except that NY law says when you falsify business records in an attempt to conceal another crime, it's a felony. So that makes it no longer a minor crime.

Judges and courts tend to deal with facts, not perceived versions of reality.

I'd say doing a backdoor deal to sell arms to terrorist is worse. "id say having a son who people would know about his shady deals and covering that up is just as bad if not worse. So we can keep going down this rabbit hole if you want. That is is exactly what is going to happen if this game is played.

"Yes, my client committed a crime, but there are worse crimes out there that he didn't commit. So he's not guilty."

Wanna guess how well a real defense attorney would do with that kind of defense?

Most likely. See how its a double standard. Suspected sure, why is it suspected. Is is that perception that people reflect in the distrust of polititians in surveys. Its real, not imagined.

So if someone spread a false rumor about you, say that you kick puppies for fun, and people believe it...it becomes true? Even if you've never kicked a puppy in your life?

How about we have the same level of a witch hunt on Biden as Trump so we can make sure the suspicion is not well founded.

Sure. This is why I asked for evidence of these crimes you assume exist. Exactly like the Manhattan DA's office did with Trump. Have a trial, and let the jury decide.

But of course that is not going to happen because Biden has the power of the system at his disposal.

Except that he doesn't. The executive branch doesn't control the judiciary. This is exactly why Trump wasn't able to "lock her up" when he was president.

I should say the puppetmasters pulling Bidens strings do. Just the fact there is a cognitively impaired president is a concern because it means who is actually running things.

Right....delusion becomes reality.

And war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength.

Unfortunately we can't as unlike Trump who was witch hunted we can't do that at the moment to expose what is really going on. Like I said anyone who thinks there was not some prior knowledge and something fishy going on with all that Hunter Biden stuff is either naieve or just plain in denial and has bias. But the truth will eventually come out.

Or you can just believe that President Biden is guilty of...whatever it is you think he's guilty of (never did get that list), and that makes him guilty.

Not a court of law, not evidence, not actual facts.

Actually once parties or polititians start taking the moral higher ground all behaviour becomes open for scrutiny.

Feel free. I asked you to provide the crimes you believe President Biden is guilty of...you didn't seem able to mention any.

I mean what did Trump say "he knows the systems corrupt because he is involved in it".

Several juries have agreed. And found him guilty on several occasions.

With more to come....

I think that was what people related to despite that he was also implying himself. That he actually acknowledged it when the Left pretend they are holier than thou and don't do the same.

I'm all for equal scrutiny. So far, Trump has been found guilty in a few courts, for both criminal and civil infractions. And there have been politicians on "the left" who have also been indicted, such as Senator Bob Melendez.

If there is evidence of wrongdoing with President Biden, I fully support him being indicted and charged with whatever crime that evidence suggests.

What I don't support, however, is the idea that if enough people believe he's guilty, then he is. That wasn't sufficient for Trump's convictions, it shouldn't be for Biden.

-- A2SG, though, you remain free to believe whatever it is you want to believe...even if you have to make it up first....

 

[KCfromNC]

I thought you were trying to discredit Trump because he lost money on some business deal.

On many business deals - Trump airlines, Trump steaks, his attempts to get into pro football. Not to mention the various fraud convictions. There's a reason why he would have been better off financially by just putting daddy's money in an index fund rather than his hands on approach.

Yeah, see this is what I am talking about with identity politics.

How is it "identity politics" to talk about a candidate's recent felony conviction? Words have meanings.

Its like a continual ad hominem being rehashed that doesn't address the content.

Mentioning that among Trump's other failures, he also managed to get himself convicted of a felony seems totally on topic for a thread about ... checks OP ... his recent felony conviction. I can understand why there would be a need to try and distract from the topic at hand, but I'm not falling for it.

 

[frienden thalord]

What is Mushroom theology. Is it related to Shrooms lol.

the answer to that question lies in the mushroom part .
How does a mushroom thrive best , KEEP in the dark and feed it lots of bull .
That be mushroom theology . For they keep the people in the dark and boy do they feed plenty of bull .

 

[BCP1928]

Both sides of politics. Both sides cook the books in different ways. Its just that the Left are better at concealing it because they are in the power seat. Everyone knows that and have done for years. Both sides cannot be trusted at the moment.

If your taking some moral stand on Trump and then siding with Biden as the moral superior then your deluded by bias. Biden and the Left have just as much if not more to answer for.

Sometimes I have trouble picking out a coherent argument from your writing. Here is what I have managed t make out or it so far. If I am wrong you can tell me.

1. Dubious or fraudulent business transactions are not really addressed by Christian morality. "Everybody does it" and it's not about sex so it's OK.
2. It is immoral to charge and convict a person of an actual crime like that if he is a right-wing politician and his re-election chances might be hurt by it.

 

[stevevw]

I take the lack of proof to indicate there is none. So, it IS a lie.

Proving...what, exactly? That lying about politicians proves politicians lie? Even the ones who aren't lying, but are being lied about?

Then that makes the vast majority of voters liars as they believe polititians and the system is corrupt.

Considering that, by your account, lying about a politician proves they're lying (somehow), I can understand how you seem to think this perception is created.

Do you have a suggestion for combatting it? Or would that involve more lying about lying? An infinite lying loop?

Not sure what you mean by "lying about a polititian". The survey is saying that people believe that when polititians are in a tight corner they will lie. They will put their own party and selves above the truth to keep power.

We can combat all this by stopping so much money being involved in buyng power. We can have more transparency rather than all this coverup.

Well, you're asserting it. To "know" something implies factual knowledge, and you've offered no facts.

Then what did the majority of votfrs base their belief that polititians are corrupt. Voters are not stupid. Clinton lied bare face to the people. Do you honestly think there was no coverup about his sordid affairs lol.

Biden lied when he said he never spoke to his son about his business dealings. Do you honestly believe he did not know what was going on or that his sone didn't use his name in business deals. He would have been mad not to.

Comer: President Biden’s Pattern of Lies, Corruption, and Obstruction Demand Action from Congress - United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

oversight.house.gov

Biden Administration Diesel Shortage Crisis - America First Legal

aflegal.org

The Bidens’ Influence Peddling Timeline - United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

oversight.house.gov

Most say Biden has acted either illegally or unethically in his son’s business dealings

Most say Biden has acted either illegally or unethically in his son’s business dealings - AP-NORC

A third of the public approves of the House’s impeachment inquiry and 38% say neither party is equipped to manage government corruption.

apnorc.org

You can fool some of the people some of the times but you can't foo all the people all of the time.

You can believe anything you like. But without any actual evidence, you've got nothing.

Which is why evidence is so important. It's the only way to counter the infinite lying loop you mentioned earlier.

Don't worry they are working on it. There is certainly some lies uncovered. Lies usually mean that something is going on to lie about. BUt when the government has all the power and control to prevent the truth coming out its a bit hard. But it will come.

CNN Poll: A majority of Americans believe Joe Biden, as VP, was involved with son’s business dealings

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/07/politics/poll-hunter-biden/index.html

Or maybe peoples perceptions partly come from the fact that polititians lie so much and when they lie about small things they may also be lying about big things. Basically Trumps offence is about misrepresentation of what really happened. So morally any misrepresentation is the same.

Fact-checks | PolitiFact

PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.

www.politifact.com

Perception is important, facts are not. Got it.

Thats what counts at voting time. Peoples perceptions are usually based on truth, they don't just come out of think air. People can tell the difference between fake news and whats really going on. So no matter how many times a polititian claims nothing is going on you can bet something shady is going on.

By this logic, if you believe Trump isn't guilty of 34 criminal felonies, then your perception reflects the truth.

Its not so much whether he is guilty of anything, it is the way they went about it. That is what sticks in peoples minds more than anything. They percieve that as worse than Trumps so called 34 charges which seems to be made out to be far bigger than it really is.

Didn't they have to invent or revive some outdated ruling to make a case in the first place. Tell why did they go after Trump for so long. It sounds more like a vendetta than actually justice. I think that is what people percieve as wrong.

I think we may have cracked the MAGA code here.

Don't know what you mean.

But if they perceive that they aren't deluded, then they aren't. Perception is what counts, it reflects the truth, remember?

I am saying that if you or anyone defending the system and polititians in saying that the voters are deluded for believing that polititians and the system is corrupt then that is just another example of how you and the system dismiss the truth. Your saying tothe voters theres nothing going on, your perceptions are unfounded, your deluding yourself. That just feeds into exactly why the voters don't trust polititians and the system.

You're conflating knowledge with delusion. You know that, right?

Theres no delusion. Voters perceptions are based on an element of truth. Part of that is its well known that money and power corrupts. So the system is designed for corruption. This is a fact. Its from this basis that voters form their beliefs and perceptions.

These are continually be confirmed in many small ways that come out, ie Polititians often lie and are caught out. They get busted for breaching peoples privacy and doing dirty deals with corps and nations supporting terrorism. The list goes on.

Report: Corruption in U.S. at Worst Levels in Almost a Decade

Report: Corruption in U.S. at Worst Levels in Almost a Decade

Corruption runs rampant in most countries, and that has big impacts on things like health care.

foreignpolicy.com

Except that NY law says when you falsify business records in an attempt to conceal another crime, it's a felony. So that makes it no longer a minor crime.

But what was the other crime. Its not really a crime to pay someone to be quiet about an affair so that it doesn't come out as far as I understand. Its not a crime to have sex with a prostitute.

Judges and courts tend to deal with facts, not perceived versions of reality.

Once again we have the general public who we can use as to what they think of the legal system. Trust and confidence has fallen to an all time low. Why would that be. Peoples perception is usually a good reflection of the health of our Insitutions. Certainly distrust indicates partiality and justice not being served.

Favorable views of Supreme Court fall to historic low

Favorable views of Supreme Court remain near historic low

Fewer than half of Americans (47%) now express a favorable opinion of the Supreme Court.

www.pewresearch.org

The simple fact that Trump was treated unlike any other person for the same thing and some much effort and time went into getting him speaks of partiality and treating someone differently compared to others. Its just not about whether the person is guilty but how the system works in treating people equally. In other words the Rule of Law was compromised in treating Trump differently to the average person in the street.

From the outside it seemed to me that Trump never had a chance. A court hearing in an anti Trump jurisdiction with at least one of the jurers compromised being anti Trump and with an anti Trump judge. Surely he derserves an appeal to at least hear the case in a more neutral setting.

"Yes, my client committed a crime, but there are worse crimes out there that he didn't commit. So he's not guilty."

Wanna guess how well a real defense attorney would do with that kind of defense?

Your creating a logical fallacy. I am not arguing for Trumps innocence. I am saying that the Left are hypocrites in using that as some way of shoing their moral superiority. That is what is going to happen. Just like they use the race and gender card they will now use the character and moral card.

Whenever they are overwhelmed and called to be accountable for the mess they have made of the economy, of immigration, of division and violence due to their ideology they can always bring up the moral character card so they don't have to deal with the real issues.

So if someone spread a false rumor about you, say that you kick puppies for fun, and people believe it...it becomes true? Even if you've never kicked a puppy in your life?

Say it once and it usually goes away. Usually the truth comes out in the end. But if a perception persists there is usually some truth to it. It may not be exactly what is known but its something wrong, something immoral at least.

As with the surveys above about Biden, about governments, about the courts they have persisted and have actually been confirmed with stuff like the merky lies and lack of transparency being forthcoming in most of these matters. If there was nothing to hid then it would all be available for people to aliviate their suspicions. But the fact that much is hidden and refused is what stokes the fires and confirms peoples suspicions.

Sure. This is why I asked for evidence of these crimes you assume exist. Exactly like the Manhattan DA's office did with Trump. Have a trial, and let the jury decide.

No we have had nothing like the level of scrutiny on Biden as Trump. In fact we have had coverups, lies, and more lies. Thats the problem your asking the same people in power who went after Trump to now turn on themselves with the same verosity.

That would be impossible because of the fact that they showed their bias already in treating Trump like no other person would be treated in that situation. The extra effort in trying to get Trump this way and that way and then when that failed again and again, changing outdated rullings, reviving laws, many people on the investigation relentlessly after Trump. It reeked of a politically motivated action.

Except that he doesn't. The executive branch doesn't control the judiciary. This is exactly why Trump wasn't able to "lock her up" when he was president.

Not just Biden but the Left, political appointees and other powerful influencers with Left leanings out to get Trump. The system is not immune to to manipulation by partisan appointees. We already see this with how Corporate dollars influence policy.

From what I understand the whole trial, most people in certain poitions of power associated with the relentless drive to get Trump from the get had strong Leftist views.

I will reply to the rest as its becoming a long post.

 

[A2SG]

Then that makes the vast majority of voters liars as they believe polititians and the system is corrupt.

There's a difference between believing something that's incorrect and lying. While I'm sure there are some (perhaps even many) politicians who are corrupt, that doesn't mean every single one is. And believing someone is corrupt doesn't make them actually corrupt.

In the end, there are facts and evidence, and there are opinions. I know which one better leads to accurate information...do you?

Not sure what you mean by "lying about a polititian". The survey is saying that people believe that when polititians are in a tight corner they will lie. They will put their own party and selves above the truth to keep power.

We can combat all this by stopping so much money being involved in buyng power. We can have more transparency rather than all this coverup.

Then what did the majority of votfrs base their belief that polititians are corrupt. Voters are not stupid. Clinton lied bare face to the people. Do you honestly think there was no coverup about his sordid affairs lol.

Biden lied when he said he never spoke to his son about his business dealings. Do you honestly believe he did not know what was going on or that his sone didn't use his name in business deals. He would have been mad not to.

Comer: President Biden’s Pattern of Lies, Corruption, and Obstruction Demand Action from Congress - United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

oversight.house.gov

Biden Administration Diesel Shortage Crisis - America First Legal

aflegal.org

The Bidens’ Influence Peddling Timeline - United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

oversight.house.gov

You seem to believe that voter perception is the deciding factor in whether or not a claim about a politician is true. If enough people believe someone is corrupt, they are.

My view is simpler: I believe that if someone is proven to be corrupt by evidence, then they are. If people believe someone is corrupt (no matter how many believe it), that doesn't automatically make them corrupt.

Most say Biden has acted either illegally or unethically in his son’s business dealings

Most say Biden has acted either illegally or unethically in his son’s business dealings - AP-NORC

A third of the public approves of the House’s impeachment inquiry and 38% say neither party is equipped to manage government corruption.

apnorc.org

Prove he has, and you'll have something.

Otherwise...you don't.

You can fool some of the people some of the times but you can't foo all the people all of the time.

Give the RNC time, they're working on it.

Don't worry they are working on it. There is certainly some lies uncovered. Lies usually mean that something is going on to lie about. BUt when the government has all the power and control to prevent the truth coming out its a bit hard. But it will come.

CNN Poll: A majority of Americans believe Joe Biden, as VP, was involved with son’s business dealings

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/07/politics/poll-hunter-biden/index.html

Or maybe peoples perceptions partly come from the fact that polititians lie so much and when they lie about small things they may also be lying about big things. Basically Trumps offence is about misrepresentation of what really happened. So morally any misrepresentation is the same.

Fact-checks | PolitiFact

PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.

www.politifact.com

Perception doesn't determine truth. Perception can be easily manipulated...and there are a lot of people out there who are very good at doing exactly that.

Thats what counts at voting time. Peoples perceptions are usually based on truth, they don't just come out of think air. People can tell the difference between fake news and whats really going on. So no matter how many times a polititian claims nothing is going on you can bet something shady is going on.

You're kidding, right?

According to a large swath of the country, "fake news" is whatever Trump says it is. Facts and evidence don't matter...if he says it's fake, his followers won't believe it.

Accuracy and truth are immaterial.

As I said, perception is easily manipulated. And Trump has become very good at that...or maybe his followers are just more gullible than average. I can't tell anymore.

Its not so much whether he is guilty of anything, it is the way they went about it. That is what sticks in peoples minds more than anything. They percieve that as worse than Trumps so called 34 charges which seems to be made out to be far bigger than it really is.

This is another example of facts and perception leading to different conclusions. The jury saw the evidence, and found Trump guilty on all counts. MAGA's perception told them something else...and they did not view any evidence whatsoever. They just listened to what Trump told them, and they believed that.

Didn't they have to invent or revive some outdated ruling to make a case in the first place.

Nope.

Tell why did they go after Trump for so long. It sounds more like a vendetta than actually justice. I think that is what people percieve as wrong.

For one reason, Trump was effectively unindictable for four years. Beyond that, it takes time to build a case by compiling evidence.

Don't know what you mean.

This idea of yours that perception determines reality is pretty much MAGA in a nutshell.

I am saying that if you or anyone defending the system and polititians in saying that the voters are deluded for believing that polititians and the system is corrupt then that is just another example of how you and the system dismiss the truth. Your saying tothe voters theres nothing going on, your perceptions are unfounded, your deluding yourself. That just feeds into exactly why the voters don't trust polititians and the system.

That is not what I've been saying.

I've been saying if you want me to believe a crime has been committed, show me evidence. Don't just tell me you believe it happened, prove it.

Theres no delusion. Voters perceptions are based on an element of truth.

Not always. Sometimes, their perception runs completely contrary to the truth.

Part of that is its well known that money and power corrupts. So the system is designed for corruption. This is a fact. Its from this basis that voters form their beliefs and perceptions.

And we've built safeguards in to combat that corruption. Granted, they don't always work...but sometimes, they do. We just have to work harder to make it work better. But you won't make things better by just throwing up your hands and saying "oh well, they're all corrupt...what are ya gonna do?"

These are continually be confirmed in many small ways that come out, ie Polititians often lie and are caught out. They get busted for breaching peoples privacy and doing dirty deals with corps and nations supporting terrorism. The list goes on.

Report: Corruption in U.S. at Worst Levels in Almost a Decade

Report: Corruption in U.S. at Worst Levels in Almost a Decade

Corruption runs rampant in most countries, and that has big impacts on things like health care.

foreignpolicy.com

Yup. Being busted for corruption are examples of those safeguards I just mentioned.

But what was the other crime. Its not really a crime to pay someone to be quiet about an affair so that it doesn't come out as far as I understand. Its not a crime to have sex with a prostitute.

There were three predicate crimes listed, and evidence provided.

If you need details, a transcript of the entire case is available.

Once again we have the general public who we can use as to what they think of the legal system. Trust and confidence has fallen to an all time low. Why would that be. Peoples perception is usually a good reflection of the health of our Insitutions. Certainly distrust indicates partiality and justice not being served.

Favorable views of Supreme Court fall to historic low

Favorable views of Supreme Court remain near historic low

Fewer than half of Americans (47%) now express a favorable opinion of the Supreme Court.

www.pewresearch.org

Out of curiosity, how much weight do you think the SCOTUS justices give to public perception of their own favorability when making their rulings?

The simple fact that Trump was treated unlike any other person for the same thing and some much effort and time went into getting him speaks of partiality and treating someone differently compared to others.

Yeah, he was given far, far more deference than any other defendant would have.

Its just not about whether the person is guilty but how the system works in treating people equally. In other words the Rule of Law was compromised in treating Trump differently to the average person in the street.

Prove it, and you'll have something. Your belief doesn't carry any weight.

The appeals court will decide whether or not the rule of law was correctly followed, and they will rule accordingly. They won't take public opinion into account.

From the outside it seemed to me that Trump never had a chance. A court hearing in an anti Trump jurisdiction with at least one of the jurers compromised being anti Trump and with an anti Trump judge. Surely he derserves an appeal to at least hear the case in a more neutral setting.

He has every right to appeal, regardless. Even if these claims of bias can't be proven.

Your creating a logical fallacy. I am not arguing for Trumps innocence. I am saying that the Left are hypocrites in using that as some way of shoing their moral superiority. That is what is going to happen. Just like they use the race and gender card they will now use the character and moral card.

Whenever they are overwhelmed and called to be accountable for the mess they have made of the economy, of immigration, of division and violence due to their ideology they can always bring up the moral character card so they don't have to deal with the real issues.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want to about this monolithic "left" you claim to believe exists. Any resemblance to actual people is purely coincidental.

Say it once and it usually goes away. Usually the truth comes out in the end. But if a perception persists there is usually some truth to it. It may not be exactly what is known but its something wrong, something immoral at least.

Really? Denying rumors makes them go away?

Tell that to Richard Gere.

As with the surveys above about Biden, about governments, about the courts they have persisted and have actually been confirmed with stuff like the merky lies and lack of transparency being forthcoming in most of these matters. If there was nothing to hid then it would all be available for people to aliviate their suspicions. But the fact that much is hidden and refused is what stokes the fires and confirms peoples suspicions.

And yet...no evidence of wrongdoing has surfaced. And not for lack of trying.

No we have had nothing like the level of scrutiny on Biden as Trump.

Tell that to the GOP. They've been investigating President Biden for a while now...and still managed to come up empty.

In fact we have had coverups, lies, and more lies. Thats the problem your asking the same people in power who went after Trump to now turn on themselves with the same verosity.

It isn't the same people.

That would be impossible because of the fact that they showed their bias already in treating Trump like no other person would be treated in that situation. The extra effort in trying to get Trump this way and that way and then when that failed again and again, changing outdated rullings, reviving laws, many people on the investigation relentlessly after Trump. It reeked of a politically motivated action.

And yet, the prosecution was able to provide evidence of Trump's crimes...enough to convince a jury of his guilt.

Not just Biden but the Left, political appointees and other powerful influencers with Left leanings out to get Trump. The system is not immune to to manipulation by partisan appointees. We already see this with how Corporate dollars influence policy.

From what I understand the whole trial, most people in certain poitions of power associated with the relentless drive to get Trump from the get had strong Leftist views.

I will reply to the rest as its becoming a long post.

You can make this a whole lot shorter by citing evidence for your claims, rather than just your belief that they're true.

-- A2SG, it would also reduce our risk of carpal tunnel....

 

[stevevw]

On many business deals - Trump airlines, Trump steaks, his attempts to get into pro football. Not to mention the various fraud convictions. There's a reason why he would have been better off financially by just putting daddy's money in an index fund rather than his hands on approach.

Why, thats not how business minded people live. They want to invest, be enterprising, create things. He hasn' done too bad to be worth around 7.2 billion.

How is it "identity politics" to talk about a candidate's recent felony conviction? Words have meanings.

Its ok to mention it when relevant. But to keep referring to it is not to disimilar to bring up the race card for explain everything. Like if the parties are debating say immigration and someone brings up his charges which is completely irrelevant.

To even base an entire campaign on this one aspect of the candidate is playing identity politics because its focusing on one part and not the whole part and the charge has nothing to do with most of the issues people are concerned about such as economic management, immigration, Freedom of speech all of which Bidens government have done bad on.

Mentioning that among Trump's other failures, he also managed to get himself convicted of a felony seems totally on topic for a thread about ... checks OP ... his recent felony conviction. I can understand why there would be a need to try and distract from the topic at hand, but I'm not falling for it.

Its fine to mention a persons criminal past when necessary. But when its brought up unnecessarily then it is making it personal. But I am afraid because the Left made it personal in the first place that this is how the US election is going to decend into gutter politics and really undermine the US as a whole.

 

[stevevw]

You said all of the big business people cook the books. How is that about politics?

If you trace the conversation, where does it end up, at Trump. The reason I said its common practice for businesses to cook the books was because someone was saying he committed business fraud and was using that to discredit him as a polititian.

Why else would it come up, because we were talking about the state of business or doing a survey on business fraud. No its only and always been about Trump. His business ability, his personal relations, his can't remember what DeNero said but it was personal. Its always being brought up to personally attack Trump.

No one's is stopping anyone. Certainly not me.

You miss the point. We already have enough problems with Identity Politics. This is just going to make it way worse. It won't just happen with the elite its going to trickle all the way down to the streets. This will only divide people more and make them antagonistic towards each other.

This will put US politics in the gutter. Now polititians will be playing the man and not the ball like never before. Especially when it gets close to the election. I just hope there can be debate on the issues without it decending into a slang match about which side is the most pious.

So yes we should be stopping it, not encouraging it. Theres a difference between bringing up someones past when relevant and making it a meme.

 

[stevevw]

Sometimes I have trouble picking out a coherent argument from your writing. Here is what I have managed t make out or it so far. If I am wrong you can tell me.

1. Dubious or fraudulent business transactions are not really addressed by Christian morality. "Everybody does it" and it's not about sex so it's OK.
2. It is immoral to charge and convict a person of an actual crime like that if he is a right-wing politician and his re-election chances might be hurt by it.

Wow you read a lot into that. Lets break down what I have said. You could sum up what I have said with a simple saying "don't throw stones when living in glass houses" lol.

 

[BCP1928]

Wow you read a lot into that. Lets break down what I have said. You could sum up what I have said with a simple saying "don't throw stones when living in glass houses" lol.

Yes, you don't care what Trump has done. You don't care if he is actually guilty of anything, you only care if his election chances are harmed. You don't care what Biden has done, you just want to be able to use it to harm his election chances.

You have done a fine job of summing up Christian morality.

 

[KCfromNC]

Why, thats not how business minded people live. They want to invest, be enterprising, create things. He hasn' done too bad to be worth around 7.2 billion.

It’s Official: Trump Would Be Richer If He Had Just Invested His Inheritance Into The S&P 500

Trump’s fortune plunged at the outset of the pandemic, but unlike the overall stock market, his real estate empire hasn’t come roaring back.

www.forbes.com

Its ok to mention it when relevant.

Say, for example, in a thread about the GOP frontrunner's recent felony conviction?

To even base an entire campaign on this one aspect of the candidate

Get back to us when this happens.

Its fine to mention a persons criminal past when necessary.

Say, for example, in a thread about the GOP frontrunner's recent felony conviction?

 

[stevevw]

Yes, you don't care what Trump has done. You don't care if he is actually guilty of anything, you only care if his election chances are harmed. You don't care what Biden has done, you just want to be able to use it to harm his election chances.

You have done a fine job of summing up Christian morality.

How is that Christian morality. You will have to sum that up for me.

 

[BCP1928]

How is that Christian morality. You will have to sum that up for me.

You're the one who thinks it's moral, you tell me.