GUILTY

[stevevw]

Yeah, his idea for replacing taxes with tariffs is brilliant. For completely ruining the economy. I'm a klutz with money but I'm a Rhodes Scholar with a Masters in Economics compared to anyone who thinks that's a good idea.

I don't know the US economy in detail or tax and commercial law though I did cover basics. I have also had several businesses. I liked Thatchers approach as the economy being like housekeeping. If you can't afford it then you can't have it lol. A bit simple but some of those basic ideas about managing money never change and are good principles.

I think at the end of the day its the end results that will tell whether economic policy is working. It makes sense that a business mind, one that has actually worked within the system governments are regulating would know better. But generally I think the Right is associated more with economic management sometimes at the expense of welfare.

The Left are more easily influenced by iseology especially associated with the envioronment and Rights based politics. They also have a big influence from Unions who hold much power. So they will more likely have to bend to some ideas that are more ideological than good for society.

 

[Bradskii]

I don't know the US economy in detail...

You don't need to know anything about it all. It's a version of GST that we have in Australia and VAT in the UK. Except that rather simply adding to the government's income which it gets via a tax on earnings, it actually replaces the tax. So the guy earning a million a year saves a monstrous amount of money. And the guy earning minimum wage saves nothing. But they both end up spending a lot more on basics.

It's absolute madness.

 

[stevevw]

Yes!

Definitely, definitely, definitely not relevant,

It is when we consider the idea of 'Guilty' in the context of how the system has been compromised. It undermines what being guilty actually means.

Perhaps your commentary isn't worth much then.

I can read you know. I can read expert opinion. Also sometimes the view from the outside gives another perspective those on the inside don't see.

Did you even care what I replied? Because you just ignored it and repeated your "out to get him" claim.

I'm not talking about that particular charge that he was found guilty on. I am talking about the overall attitude towards Trump by the Left. The amount of attention, at times almost fixated on a single person to find something wrong. To find him guilty of something. It seems a witch hunt.

Yep, just more and more of these claims...

Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell. No one is saying Trump is guilty of something. Its more a case of exactly what and whether that justifies the amount of effort in prosecuting him.

Would an average citizen command such strutiny and attention and did that influence how things were done.

The left is not the topic of the thread.

Yes it is, it is. The OP invited people to "Make your excuses. Spout your conspiracy theories. Tell us how this makes him an even better candidate".

I really think behind everyones opinion is a fair chunk of the Left and the Right and to deny this is unreal. Its no coinicident that the vast majority of the Right think Trump was setup and taken out and the vast majority of the Left think hes rotton. Gee that was evident well before this Kangaroo court.

Not relevant.

It is exactly 'identity politics' that motivated such a witchhunt. The idea is to tar the opponent as evil, undermine credibility especially morally. Thats more about personal stuff, attacking the person and not the actual content, the policies the candidate and part has.

Not relevant.

Of course it is. Just watch how the 'felon' tag is used. How often it is used instead of actually dealing with the policies. In doing that the Left are actually cultivating identity politics because the implicit mesaage is about the moral character of the candidate.

Once this happens then it becomes all about the identity of the candidates and the party and so the whole campaign is going to decend into persoanl smears and character assassinations on both sides.

Not relevant.

You just literally said 'its a pity we didn't speak more about policy' as that is what is important.

Not relevant.

It will be on election day. But fair enough we will just stick to Trump being 'Guity' a 'Felon'. We are forbidden from talking about any context as this will spoli the message that Trump is 'Guity' a 'Felon', is Guilty I tell you and a Felon lol.

What's the point in explaining it to you? You'll just ignore it any way and write 2000 words about woke or some nonsense.

No I won't. I have not understood your point. I am not sure you do. What is your point in all this. Is it to prove Trumps a bad man or how great the US system is that it can even prosecute a US president.

 

[stevevw]

You don't need to know anything about it all. It's a version of GST that we have in Australia and VAT in the UK. Except that rather simply adding to the government's income which it gets via a tax on earnings, it actually replaces the tax. So the guy earning a million a year saves a monstrous amount of money. And the guy earning minimum wage saves nothing. But they both end up spending a lot more on basics.

It's absolute madness.

Ok well I have lived under both GST and VAT and I don't think they are that bad as far as a basic tax on goods and services. The basic idea is that those who spend more pay more tax. Basic goods like groceries and health, education ect are exempt. So technically the rich pay more tax. But at least if your one to spend a lot of stuff especially the more luxurious stuff then you pay more.

This avoided the black economy as the tax is charged at the point of sale. I mean this idea was brought in because the tax system was failing. I don't think the Income tax system is very progressive and more repressive as far as taxing people as its actually a tax on working. Maybe both systems are broke. Maybe its capitalism itself.

But all I know is it seemed Trump was getting the US economy going again before the Left took over. All I know is that over the past decades we have seen a repeated cycle of the Right getting debt down and tidying up the economy only to have the Left come in and wreck it. Then the Right coming back in and repeating the same.

 

[Bradskii]

Ok well I have lived under both GST and VAT and I don't think they are that bad as far as a basic tax on goods and services.

It's not a basic tax. It's a replacement tax. And who pays the tarif? The end user. The consumer. They'll have to pay more for basic commodities. So the low paid worker saves nothing by paying no tax because most of them pay nothing anyway: 'the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 2.3 percent'. Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2024 Update.

Yet they end up paying more for almost everything. And what do countries do when they are hot with a tarif? They respond likewise. So companies that export pay more and people who import pay more.

 

[stevevw]

It's not a basic tax. It's a replacement tax. And who pays the tarif? The end user. The consumer. They'll have to pay more for basic commodities. So the low paid worker saves nothing by paying no tax because most of them pay nothing anyway: 'the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 2.3 percent'. Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2024 Update.

Yet they end up paying more for almost everything. And what do countries do when they are hot with a tarif? They respond likewise. So companies that export pay more and people who import pay more.

Ok well I don't know that system. I will have to look into it. But just a quick look I think I can understand the basic idea in getting US manufactoring and goods pumping rather than relying on importants. But I think thats near impossible today in a world that is so interlinked.

But something along the lines of cultivating home grown industries is needed. But you can't tax that into existence you need to create an enterprising and motivated local economy which may begin with grass roots enterprises. Ground up is always better than top down regulations.

In other words we need to get small and medium businesses going which may require some tax breaks. But will offset this with added benefits of new business and enterprise.

If we don't then we may be forced to anyway because if all goes to predictions we will have another GFC but even bigger next time which may bankrupt nations and force people back to grass roots anyway.

All the things you mention with high inflation and economic ruin is already happening now. We have record high housing, energy and fuel costs and inflation where things virtually trippled overnight. Now we have generations without housing, going cold because they cannot afford energy costs and families struggling to put food on the table. So the current system ain't exactly working either.

 

[BCP1928]

Ok well I don't know that system. I will have to look into it. But just a quick look I think I can understand the basic idea in getting US manufactoring and goods pumping rather than relying on importants. But I think thats near impossible today in a world that is so interlinked.

But something along the lines of cultivating home grown industries is needed. But you can't tax that into existence you need to create an enterprising and motivated local economy which may begin with grass roots enterprises. Ground up is always better than top down regulations.

In other words we need to get small and medium businesses going which may require some tax breaks. But will offset this with added benefits of new business and enterprise.

If we don't then we may be forced to anyway because if all goes to predictions we will have another GFC but even bigger next time which may bankrupt nations and force people back to grass roots anyway.

All the things you mention with high inflation and economic ruin is already happening now. We have record high housing, energy and fuel costs and inflation where things virtually trippled overnight. Now we have generations without housing, going cold because they cannot afford energy costs and families struggling to put food on the table. So the current system ain't exactly working either.

No, it's not. Foreign companies apparently can build reliable and attractive products for less than American companies. As automation proceeds and the direct labor component of these products diminishes it becomes less and less plausible to blame lazy, greedy American workers. Something has to be done to protect corporate profits, so tariffs.

 

[KCfromNC]

Most people see Trump as a better economic manager.

The guy who bankrupts casinos? That Trump?

 

[stevevw]

No, it's not.

At least in my country anjd as far as I know from relatives in England the cost of living has tripled. Todays generation will never own a home and the cost of energy is threw the roof. Inflation is unstable and the economy is propped up by a fake economy of printing more money and an over inflated real estate market.

The fact is the more you borrow and spend without any responsible measures to account for that will eventually undermine the economy by devaluing it, devaluing the dollar.

UK and Japan are now in recessession, Australia will soon follow and I think so will most of the world and its going to be big because there is such a vast gap between real economy and false economy. We have managed to postpone this due to shprt term measures like the current overinflated housing market and printing more money but the chickens will come home to roost.

Foreign companies apparently can build reliable and attractive products for less than American companies. As automation proceeds and the direct labor component of these products diminishes it becomes less and less plausible to blame lazy, greedy American workers. Something has to be done to protect corporate profits, so tariffs.

Like I said I don't know the context of the US economy. Trump is not the first to mention protectionism. You are right that some nations can produce consumer items a lot cheaper but I am not sure thats good either. It has its drawbacks pricing local manufacturers and workers out of work.

 

[stevevw]

The guy who bankrupts casinos? That Trump?

Yeah most successful business people make poor decisions you know. Sometimes they get a bit cocky. But at least he is out there in the real life and not a career polititians who would not know about running a business. He is worth 6.1 to 7 Billion and in the top 500 world most richest people. Must be doing something right.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It is when we consider the idea of 'Guilty' in the context of how the system has been compromised. It undermines what being guilty actually means.

What is this some sort of post-modernism? I can't keep up with you people. Sigh.

"Guilty" is the verdict rendered by a unanimous jury when the charges are proved beyond a reasonable doubt. It means that the defendant violated the law in question.

I can read you know. I can read expert opinion. Also sometimes the view from the outside gives another perspective those on the inside don't see.

It would be one thing if you wanted to discuss these "expert" views, but then you dive into thing that are *COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT*. I'm not on the inside either as I am, nor never have been a resident of NY.

[irrelevancy deleted]

 

[stevevw]

What is this some sort of post-modernism? I can't keep up with you people. Sigh.

"Guilty" is the verdict rendered by a unanimous jury when the charges are proved beyond a reasonable doubt. It means that the defendant violated the law in question.

Actually that is not how I see US law working in some cases. I mean look at OJ lol. It seems it wasn't about whether or not he was guilty of something but that the law was manipulated sothat the charge was made a felony when it was a misdemeanour.

It would be one thing if you wanted to discuss these "expert" views, but then you dive into thing that are *COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT*. I'm not on the inside either as I am, nor never have been a resident of NY.

Alvin Bragg Is Trying To Punish Trump for Something That Is Not a Crime

Alvin Bragg is trying to punish Trump for something that is not a crime

The essence of the case, the Manhattan D.A. says, is that Trump "corrupt[ed] a presidential election" by concealing embarrassing information.

reason.com

AN ANATOMY OF A POLITICAL PROSECUTION: THE MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY’S OFFICE’S VENDETTA AGAINST PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP

https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/republicans-judiciary.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/2024-04-25-Report-An-Anatomy-of-a-Political-Prosecution.pdf

It would be one thing if you wanted to discuss these "expert" views, but then you dive into thing that are *COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT*.
[irrelevancy deleted]

I began with the view from the outside, how I seen what was going on outside Australia. That despite the guilty finding many people think the Left is just as guilty and are hypocrits for using the system to take out an opponent.

 

[BCP1928]

At least in my country anjd as far as I know from relatives in England the cost of living has tripled. Todays generation will never own a home and the cost of energy is threw the roof. Inflation is unstable and the economy is propped up by a fake economy of printing more money and an over inflated real estate market.

The fact is the more you borrow and spend without any responsible measures to account for that will eventually undermine the economy by devaluing it, devaluing the dollar.

UK and Japan are now in recessession, Australia will soon follow and I think so will most of the world and its going to be big because there is such a vast gap between real economy and false economy. We have managed to postpone this due to shprt term measures like the current overinflated housing market and printing more money but the chickens will come home to roost.

Like I said I don't know the context of the US economy. Trump is not the first to mention protectionism. You are right that some nations can produce consumer items a lot cheaper but I am not sure thats good either. It has its drawbacks pricing local manufacturers and workers out of work.

Back in the good old days, before the Republican Party got religion, they used to favor a system called "free enterprise." I don't know if you've heard of it. Under that old system, large corporations making record profits were thought not to need tariff protection.

 

[stevevw]

Back in the good old days, before the Republican Party got religion, they used to favor a system called "free enterprise." I don't know if you've heard of it. Under that old system, large corporations making record profits were thought not to need tariff protection.

Before the Republicans got religion. Was there ever a time. I thought they always had religion. I think you mean before they got all evangelical.

Free enterprise, if you mean Market Based economy such as in the 80's with Neo Libralism and Privatisation. The time when privatisation was all the rage and the market was deregulated. That led to the generation of greed. Remember 'Greed is Good' lol and the Wolf of Wall street ect. And Globalisation. Big Corps being given free reign. Eventually even the Left jumped on the bandwagon of privatisation and free market reforms.

 

[BCP1928]

Before the Republicans got religion. Was there ever a time. I thought they always had religion. I think you mean before they got all evangelical.

For all practical purposes it's the only religion in this country.

Free enterprise, if you mean Market Based economy such as in the 80's with Neo Libralism and Privatisation. The time when privatisation was all the rage and the market was deregulated. That led to the generation of greed. Remember 'Greed is Good' lol and the Wolf of Wall street ect. And Globalisation. Big Corps being given free reign. Eventually even the Left jumped on the bandwagon of privatisation and free market reforms.

No, that wasn't free enterprise, either.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Actually that is not how I see US law working in some cases. I mean look at OJ lol. It seems it wasn't about whether or not he was guilty of something but that the law was manipulated sothat the charge was made a felony when it was a misdemeanour.

That *IS* what a guilty verdict means.

Donald Trump is now a felon.

 

[Bradskii]

Ok well I don't know that system. I will have to look into it. But just a quick look I think I can understand the basic idea in getting US manufactoring and goods pumping rather than relying on importants. But I think thats near impossible today in a world that is so interlinked.

Indeed. Impossible. Hence...it's not even a bad idea. It doesn't even make the cut to be considered as such.

 

[stevevw]

For all practical purposes it's the only religion in this country.

Not really. Protestants make up 34% and Catholics 23%. But theres around 32% of Christians without any specific denomination. I think evangelism is mainly Protestants.

No, that wasn't free enterprise, either.

Ok so then I am not sure what you are talking about. But free enterprise as in being innovative and productive doen't seem like a bad thing in itself.

 

[stevevw]

That *IS* what a guilty verdict means.

Donald Trump is now a felon.

Can you say that one more time lol. Well many people have a criminal record and go on to do great things. Using that as a way to undermine the persons character is actually wrong as well.

Trump can technically become the first president who is a felon lol. At the end of the day its what the people, the voters think.

Few think Trump is being treated the same as other defendants
Just 13% nationwide feel Donald Trump is being treated the same as other criminal defendants

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/25/politics/cnn-poll-trump-trial/index.html

 

[Hans Blaster]

Can you say that one more time lol. Well many people have a criminal record and go on to do great things. Using that as a way to undermine the persons character is actually wrong as well.

If trump did a great thing, it would be his first.

Trump can technically become the first president who is a felon lol.

It is sad that this is even a possibility.