Guess what I found about the Sabbath ? YOU MUST READ THIS!!

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 16, 2009

David,

With the inclusion of Verse 37, the comparison should look like this:

Verse 2. "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these"

Verse 4. "These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them."

Verse 37. "These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations."

Verse 44. "So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD."

Is there anyone who cannot see that these phrases are repeated throughout Leviticus 23?

Why would we set aside one small part of the chapter when the convocations are clearly listed throughout the chapter, including Verse 3?

BFA

djconklin · Mar 21, 2009

With the inclusion of Verse 37, the comparison should look like this:

Verse 2. "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these"

Verse 4. "These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them."

Verse 37. "These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations."

Verse 44. "So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD."

Is there anyone who cannot see that these phrases are repeated throughout Leviticus 23?

Why would we set aside one small part of the chapter when the convocations are clearly listed throughout the chapter, including Verse 3?

Response:

One must pay attention to all of the evidence versus only that which one wishes to see. Notice the double repetition of the word "appointed" in verses 2 & 4. And only those two verses say "which you shall proclaim." As we readily see the phrases are not repeated throughout the rest of the chapter. This has been pointed out before. No one has "set aside" any part of the chapter. I am simply recognizing, as professional scholars in the field have, that verses 2-4 form an inclusio.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 23, 2009

djconklin said:
One must pay attention to all of the evidence versus only that which one wishes to see. Notice the double repetition of the word "appointed" in verses 2 & 4. And only those two verses say "which you shall proclaim." As we readily see the phrases are not repeated throughout the rest of the chapter. This has been pointed out before. No one has "set aside" any part of the chapter. I am simply recognizing, as professional scholars in the field have, that verses 2-4 form an inclusio.

Is anyone finding this to be even remotely persuasive? The passage is clear:

Verse 2. "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these"

Verse 4. "These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them."

Verse 37. "These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations."

Verse 44. "So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD."

BFA

Xenon · Mar 23, 2009

Byfaithalone1 said:
Is anyone finding this to be even remotely persuasive? The passage is clear:
Verse 2. "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these"

Verse 4. "These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them."

Verse 37. "These are the appointed times of the LORD which you shall proclaim as holy convocations."

Verse 44. "So Moses declared to the sons of Israel the appointed times of the LORD."

BFA

Makes sense to me. Verses 2 and 4 are nearly identical, verse 37 should really be read with verse 38 where it mentions the Sabbaths of the Lord as separate from the feasts, and verse 44 isn't even part of the explanation of the feasts.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 24, 2009

Xenon said:
verse 37 should really be read with verse 38 where it mentions the Sabbaths of the Lord as separate from the feasts.

Let's examine this claim to determine whether Verses 37-38 are creating:

(1) a division between convocations;

-OR-

(2) a division between offerings.

"These are the LORD's appointed feasts, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies for bringing offerings made to the LORD by fire—the burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings required for each day. These offerings are in addition to those for the LORD's Sabbaths and in addition to your gifts and whatever you have vowed and all the freewill offerings you give to the LORD."

Verses 37-38 come after a long list of sabbaths/convocations, a list that includes the seventh-day sabbath. After such a long list, we learn that the Israelites were to provide special offerings during each of the sabbaths/convocations (including the seventh-day sabbath). Verses 37-38 create a distinction between offerings, not a distinction between convocations.

Once again, there is no Biblical basis for man's desire to divide the convocations into categories.

BFA

Xenon · Mar 24, 2009

Byfaithalone1 said:
Let's examine this claim to determine whether Verses 37-38 are creating:
(1) a division between convocations;

-OR-

(2) a division between offerings.

"These are the LORD's appointed feasts, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies for bringing offerings made to the LORD by fire—the burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings required for each day. These offerings are in addition to those for the LORD's Sabbaths and in addition to your gifts and whatever you have vowed and all the freewill offerings you give to the LORD."

Verses 37-38 come after a long list of sabbaths/convocations, a list that includes the seventh-day sabbath. After such a long list, we learn that the Israelites were to provide special offerings during each of the sabbaths/convocations (including the seventh-day sabbath). Verses 37-38 create a distinction between offerings, not a distinction between convocations.

Once again, there is no Biblical basis for man's desire to divide the convocations into categories.

BFA

You're using the NIV translation. KJV reads like this:

Leviticus 23:37-38 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Young's Literal reads very similarly to it. There is a clear separation between the feasts and the offerings on it, and the sabbaths of the LORD.

Besides, you didn't even show anything. You just quoted the verse, went on the assumption that your idea was correct, drew a conclusion after that assumption, and moved on. Using a translation known for its errors and loose translation to prove a grammatical point doesn't help your side any.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 25, 2009

Xenon said:
Leviticus 23:37-38 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Regardless of the translation, we find the same thought process.

Please show us why you believe that the above-referenced quote creates a distinction between convocations. The only thing that I see is a distinction between offerings.

BFA

Xenon · Mar 25, 2009

Byfaithalone1 said:
Regardless of the translation, we find the same thought process.

Please show us why you believe that the above-referenced quote creates a distinction between convocations. The only thing that I see is a distinction between offerings.

BFA

My point is that, in those two verses, the feasts and holy convocations are listed separately from the Sabbaths of the Lord. You're saying that the Sabbath of the Lord in verse 3 should be put together with the feasts and holy convocations. DJ says otherwise, and this section seems to support his view. The Sabbath of the Lord is listed separate from the holy convocations, as are the gifts, freewill offerings, etc. It is a clear division.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 26, 2009

Xenon said:
My point is that, in those two verses, the feasts and holy convocations are listed separately from the Sabbaths of the Lord.

Please re-read Leviticus 23. There are multiple sabbaths listed in the chapter and they are expressly described as sabbaths. Verses 36-37 do not create a distinction between the weekly and annual sabbaths that are listed in the chapter.

BFA

ricker · Apr 10, 2009

dragNdrop said:
Then we can than ask, how would God say he has given a single nation (Israel) something that was universal or applicable since Adam ?

It is the REAL issues like these I wanted us to bring up sothat we may find the full picture of what the bible says on this subject. I have posted another thread on COL 2:16 and the bible evidence that this verse abolishes the Sabbath.

My greatest source of confusion is why did God then ordain the Sabbath before sin (Gen 2:1-3). If I can find a solid bible answer to that question, given all that I've learnt o this subject I'll stop keeping the Sabbath.

When reading Hebrews 4 we see the rest, or sabbath God blessed on the seventh day of creation was His singular and continuing rest from creation, not a recurring sabbath observance.

Exodus 31 says:
12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' " 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

Notice it says "and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested". Again it says nothing at all about any recurring sabbath observance.

Could a ceremonial sign (the sabbath) if given at the week of creation to all mankind then be given as a covenant sign to the nation of Israel? It doesn't make sense to me.

visionary · Apr 10, 2009

Could a ceremonial sign (the sabbath) if given at the week of creation to all mankind then be given as a covenant sign to the nation of Israel? It doesn't make sense to me.

When God's people are wittled down to just one tribe.. Israel.. yah.. the covenant sign is evident with that nation... and it would be not a ceremonial sign, but always a covenant sign with God's people.

Shabbat shalom everyone.

Byfaithalone1 · Apr 16, 2009

visionary said:
When God's people are wittled down to just one tribe.. Israel.. yah.. the covenant sign is evident with that nation... and it would be not a ceremonial sign, but always a covenant sign with God's people.

Shabbat shalom everyone.

Who is the vine and who are the branches?

BFA

Pythons · Apr 16, 2009

According to Jewish belief Adam and Eve never entered the Sabbath, they were created, sinned against God and were ejected out of the Garden prior to entering the Sabbath (7th day). Rosh Hashanah (Lev 23,24), the Jewish New Year is understood as the special day that Jews accept that they have sinned (through Adam).

bugkiller · Apr 16, 2009

ricker said:
Notice it says "and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested". Again it says nothing at all about any recurring sabbath observance.

Could a ceremonial sign (the sabbath) if given at the week of creation to all mankind then be given as a covenant sign to the nation of Israel? It doesn't make sense to me.

Glad some one finally noticed these details. Wonder if they can provide some answers? Should be most interesting. I certianly want to know what is different.

bugkiller

visionary · Apr 17, 2009

Since sabbath occurred right after the sixth day of creation, I would say that it is truly debateable as to whether they sinned before sabbath... the only think I can think of is..

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

This verse begs the question... was the Lord coming to visit them on the shabbat? was the cool of the day and indication that it was towards sunset that the Lord was coming to visit?

bugkiller · Apr 17, 2009

visionary said:
Since sabbath occurred right after the sixth day of creation, I would say that it is truly debateable as to whether they sinned before sabbath... the only think I can think of is..

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

This verse begs the question... was the Lord coming to visit them on the shabbat? was the cool of the day and indication that it was towards sunset that the Lord was coming to visit?

Yeah they did sin rather quickly didn't they. Just proves how desperatly wicked we are.

Since there was/is no mention of a day that the Lord was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, I think this was the Lord's daily habit. This occurance was something they recognized. It must have been repeatative thing.

Also there has been pointed out there is nothing about a repeatative Sabbath. The word "rested? is "shabat" meaning desist as in a cease and desist order. Such an order means to have no repeat performance. While "shabbat" means to pause.

bugkiller

visionary · Apr 17, 2009

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Since at the end of the sixth day of creation, even the creation of man, God can say it was VERY GOOD. I would say that there was no sin that first week.

bugkiller · Apr 18, 2009

ricker said:
Could a ceremonial sign (the sabbath) if given at the week of creation to all mankind then be given as a covenant sign to the nation of Israel? It doesn't make sense to me.

What about a response visionary?

bugkiller

visionary · Apr 19, 2009

bugkiller said:
What about a response visionary?

bugkiller

He rested.. it is our sign that we are to rest too. .. I do not believe it is a convenantal sign just for Israel?

There is no other indication of how to worship the Creator than "remember" the seventh day...

Micah 4:2
And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

bugkiller · Apr 20, 2009

visionary said:
He rested.. it is our sign that we are to rest too. .. I do not believe it is a convenantal sign just for Israel?

There is no other indication of how to worship the Creator than "remember" the seventh day...

Interesting indeed. If we follow God's example we would not do again what we did the day before. "Rested" in Gen 2 is "shabath" not "shabbath." Notice the single and double "b?" "Shabath" means specifically desist as in do not repeat. "Shabbath" means to pause, then continue.

Incidently "shabath" is used in Hosea 2:11. Here it appears as cease in English. The things named to cease are a list of items none of which are the same or a repeat of an item in the list.

And a question for you since you said there is no other indication of how to worship, how is this "the Sabbath? " (Referring of course to the seventh day, the first day after creation is finished.) Also since there is no indication on how to worship or even to worship in the "10" and the ceremonial laws are nailed to the cross, how does anyone get that we are to worship on the Sabbath?

Curiousity killed the cat and I was suspect.

bugkiller

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