Greek-Christian syncretism

[fellowshipseeker]

Hi folks,
Does anyone here agree that Greek philosophy has had a largely corrupting effect on Christianity? Greek thinking and worldviews are radically different from our Hebrew heritage and it would have been better for the church if we had left Greek philosophy alone, rather than incorporating into our views of God.

 

[Paradoxum]

Why would the Hebrews be more right?

 

[Chany]

Yes, the whole world would be a better place without democracy, republics, and an emphasis on rational thought.

 

[lesliedellow]

Hi folks,
Does anyone here agree that Greek philosophy has had a largely corrupting effect on Christianity? Greek thinking and worldviews are radically different from our Hebrew heritage and it would have been better for the church if we had left Greek philosophy alone, rather than incorporating into our views of God.

You can find the influence of Greek philosophy right in the New Testament - especially John and Hebrews - so how are you going to escape it?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi folks,
Does anyone here agree that Greek philosophy has had a largely corrupting effect on Christianity? Greek thinking and worldviews are radically different from our Hebrew heritage and it would have been better for the church if we had left Greek philosophy alone, rather than incorporating into our views of God.

All of Greek philosophy, or just (disparate) portions of it? [You might want to be a bit more specific; it's not as if Greek philosophy is some monolithic, historical entity.]

 

[Chany]

It's almost impossible to imagine a world without the Greek philosophical influence upon the world. They influenced so much and were the subject of the Enlightenment thinking, western civilization is heavily built upon them in some way.

 

[Chany]

All of Greek philosophy, or just (disparate) portions of it? [You might want to be a bit more specific; it's not as if Greek philosophy is some monolithic, historical entity.]

I would probably go off of this. The variety and spread of beliefs among the Greeks, as with most deep philosophical traditions, makes them pretty much an impossible to connect them all beyond their speakers' setting. It's like asking "so, what do you think of the theology of religion?"

Why would different philosophical positions create problems? The truth should be able to defend itself.

 

[fellowshipseeker]

My replies:

To Paradoxum: Hi Paradoxum. The Hebrews would be more right because they were and still are God's chosen people. The laws and customs they had are largely a reflection of God's ways. For example, the emphasis on the family which is evident throughout Scripture, through the geneaologies. This is a reflection of how much God's values a) families and b) people in general. The Hebrews measured their days from sunset to sunset, which is a reflection of God's creation in the book of Genesis. They believed fully in corroboration, because it was written into the Mosaic Law that "every accusation must be brought by two or three witnesses". They were a strictly monotheistic people, as opposed to today's indifferent and multicultural society. There are lots of other examples I could give.

To Chany: Hi Chany. The Greek idea of democracy as a form of government is good, but it's not what God intended for the world. He intended HIMSELF to be the king of the world. Even the Hebrew people's absolute monarchy system was a concession by God because they rejected him as their King. Christians believe that one day Jesus Christ will come back to earth and he will reign for 1000 years "Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection; the second death has no power over them, but will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him 1000 years". It will be direct government by God, just as he always intended. Republics are again another form of government apart from what God intended. As for an emphasis on rational thought, the Hebrews people's faith was the foundation of their life, with reason taking a subordinate role to understand the things that their faith revealed to them. This is exactly the same as Christians. Rational thought as a basis for society is a poor subsitute for faith.

To Lessiedellow: Hiya. The Gospel of John does indeed include Greek thinking i.e. referring to Jesus as the Logos, a greek term for a demigod. However, it is being used to point people away from Greek beliefs and towards Christian ones (i.e. John says "The Word was God" NOT "The Word was like God", which is what Greeks believed) What is wrong is when we unthinkingly adopt Greek ways of thinking that are false. For example. dualism is a common one: that means thinking in terms of sacred and secular, natural and supernatural, animal and man. These are distinctions that don't really exist in God's order.

To 2Philovoid: Hi. Greek thinking, just like other thought systems apart from the faith, does contain a shadow of truth. However, we should never incorporate their ideas into our faith or begin to think like them since they are still fundamentally in the dark. Hebrew thinking is the closest to God and it is them we need to think like, not any other cultural group.

To Chany: Hi again. Yes, western civilation is largely founded on Greek and Latin thinking, and this is one reason it doesn't function the way it should. In a society based on Hebrew ways and customs, things would be radically different. Primarily, there would be no distinction between religion and public life which there is very much in today's society. Faith and ordinary life would be blended indistinguishably in a Hebrew society, just like in the Old Testament.

 

[Chany]

If you want to bring back any theocracy, especially that of the Old Testament, then I will fight you to my last breath. The Old Testament world was a horrible place, with horrid laws governing it.

The world doesn't work because the world is imperfect. Submitting to people who had to argue whether women had souls at all is not going to help, and that's back during the Middle Ages. The Old Testament? Slavery? Really?

 

[Inkfingers]

Hi folks,
Does anyone here agree that Greek philosophy has had a largely corrupting effect on Christianity?

Quite the opposite. The Logos is key to understanding God.

 

[branchofthevine]

Platonism has really affected Christianity, it is where gnosticism gets a lot of its teaching. Paul battles empty philosophies in some of his letters like Colossians where he uses very philosophical terms in chapter 2

The idea of an eternal soul comes from Platonism, and the concept of heaven as afterlife as opposed to a New Earth has Greek roots rather than Hebrew roots.


There are some things like that within the Christian Faith that have part in Platonism and other philosophies, and most of those ideas can probably just be abandoned by Christians for more Biblical ideas.

 

[Paradoxum]

My replies:

To Paradoxum: Hi Paradoxum. The Hebrews would be more right because they were and still are God's chosen people. The laws and customs they had are largely a reflection of God's ways. For example, the emphasis on the family which is evident throughout Scripture, through the geneaologies. This is a reflection of how much God's values a) families and b) people in general. The Hebrews measured their days from sunset to sunset, which is a reflection of God's creation in the book of Genesis. They believed fully in corroboration, because it was written into the Mosaic Law that "every accusation must be brought by two or three witnesses". They were a strictly monotheistic people, as opposed to today's indifferent and multicultural society. There are lots of other examples I could give.

Well I disagree, but it doesn't seem like something arguing over.

 

[fellowshipseeker]

My replies:

To Chany: Hi again. I believe that a theocracy such as the Old Testament is God's plan for humanity - i.e. where He and his law is the foundation of society. The Old Testament Hebrew people give us a good idea of what that might look like. You mention the OT being full of "horrible" laws and specifically mention slavery. From one article I have read it seems that Biblical slavery could be a voluntary practice i.e. when a person was too poor to pay their debts or support their families, they sold themselves as slaves. Slavery was also regulated so it was not inhumane.

To Inkfingers: The Logos is one case where the Biblical writers used Greek ideas to turn people from Greek thinking to Christian thinking. However I think on the whole, the ideas of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, as well as many other Greek thinkers, should be left out of Christian thought because we need to think 100% Biblically, which means thinking 100% like Jews.


To branchofthevine: Can I recommend that you search for "Degreecing the church" by a man called David Pawson, who explains more about the Greek influence on the church?

 

[lesliedellow]

Primarily, there would be no distinction between religion and public life which there is very much in today's society. Faith and ordinary life would be blended indistinguishably in a Hebrew society, just like in the Old Testament.

It could hardly be said that Greek ways of thinking were absent during the Middle Ages, and yet during that period, and right up until the seventeenth century, and into the eighteenth, Church and state were living in one another's pockets.

Religion has been marginalised because people today are wealthy compared with former times and "You can't serve both God and Mammon" is as true today as the day it was spoken. The benefits of serving Mammon are rather more obvious, and immediate, than the benefits of serving God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would probably go off of this. The variety and spread of beliefs among the Greeks, as with most deep philosophical traditions, makes them pretty much an impossible to connect them all beyond their speakers' setting. It's like asking "so, what do you think of the theology of religion?"

Why would different philosophical positions create problems? The truth should be able to defend itself.

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite clear on what you are intending to say here.

My point is that Plato and Aristotle, while not the only Greeks, were very much two of the most influential in later European history. Neither of these individuals recommended 'democracy' or the elimination of slavery. In fact, they both thought in terms of 'casts'; that is, some people were 'born' to be slaves.

So, it's not really as if 'Greek' thinking, if it had not been interrupted by the so-called 'Dark Ages' of Christian hegemony, would have automatically brought about an earlier age of Enlightened Liberty, Freedom, and Democracy. In fact, it may very well be that the idea of 'freedom' in general was slowly 'seeded' into our culture as a by-product of the New Testament's cultural influences (see Patterson, 1991).

References
​

Patterson, Orlando (1991). Freedom: Volume1 - Freedom in the making of western culture. New York, NY: Basic Books.

 

[Huntun]

Had the early Christians left Greek philosophical thought alone I don't think Christianity would have been half as successful in expanding and becoming a socially respectable religion. Christianity would probably had stayed a religion of the less educated, poor, and outcasts. It was people like Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Athenagoras, St Justin Martyr (also Known as Justin the Philosopher), etc... who sold Christianity to the intelligent. Read the writings of most of the Pre-Nicene fathers and they sound as much like Greek philosophers as they do students of the Scriptures. Justin Martyr went so far as to call Socrates and Plato " Christians before Christ".

 

[branchofthevine]

To branchofthevine: Can I recommend that you search for "Degreecing the church" by a man called David Pawson, who explains more about the Greek influence on the church?

I will look into it because that book sounds intriguing