Graven Images

[Dominus Fidelis]

Brethren in Christ, peace be with you...

I will likely not be responding to this thread...I say likely because I didn't intend to ever come back to this forum...and I did anyway. I wanted to share somethings that I think may be useful and I hope they are read with the sincerity in which they were written.

The Old Testament was pretty clear about not getting involved with graven images/idolatry, right? The people got in all sorts of trouble for making a golden calf and worshipping it...there are many other examples of what not to do.

But there are some interesting cases in the Old Testament where people did some similiar-looking things as we Catholics do...and they were not sinning at all. On the contrary, they were blessed by God.

For example, the golden serpent that the Lord commanded be made to protect the Israelites in the desert from actual snakes. They made the golden serpent and anyone looking at it was protected. So, how can making an image of a serpent by acceptable, even commanded by God, if we aren't supposed to make any images of anything on earth? How is it that this golden serpent actually had the power to protect people? Think about this and see why it is different than the golden calf debacle, my brothers in Christ.

We also see David doing an interesting thing. He is described as dancing and putting gifts before the Ark of the Covenant. Yet another golden item that the Jews respected as most holy...they couldn't even touch the ark or they would die. Does this look like anything that we Catholics do? Well, we say Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant...clearly Jesus is greater than the Ten Commandments, right? Wouldn't the woman that carried Jesus and protected him as a child be even more holy than the Ark of the Old Covenant? Is it so wrong to crown statues of Mary with flowers to honor her? Is it wrong to sing her praises, like David did before the Ark of the Old Covenent?

Clearly making icons is not making idols...and honoring these icons is not worshipping them. Big difference my brothers...do you see the difference?

So what else besides golden calfs can be idols? Anything that is higher than God in your heart is an idol! It doesn't have to be a literal golden calf...it could be money, sex, materialism...even hatred of your fellow Christian brethren. The last being a pretty serious sin, as we would all agree, I think.

So the next time you think statues of Mary is idolatry think back to how the people respected the Ark of the Covenant. The next time you think Miraculous Medals of Our Lady are blasphemous "magic talismans" or something similiar, think back to the Golden Serpent. Compare these things to the real cases of idolatry...both in the Old Testament...and in our hearts.

God Bless

 

[seebs]

Ooh! Well-argued.

 

[mrcrow]

jews didnt or dont use human beings bodies or faces as iconic reminders
they use the fruit of nature
plants etc..olive trees...
thats not a criticism..it just reflects on the OT part using snakes and such
the heathen used them as well..
to some extent they (the israelites) were not wholly worhipping god..
and didnt for a long time
see amos.
cheers

 

[Oblio]

jews didnt or dont use human beings bodies or faces as iconic reminders
they use the fruit of nature
plants etc..olive trees...

Untrue, see the infamous idolatry thread for examples of Jewish Iconograpy,

 

[Oblio]

[c]

Fresco. Dura Synagogue. The Ark of the Covenant in temple of Dagon, god of the Philistines. 245-256 A.D. Dura Europos, Mesopotamia, Parthia. 59" tall. (Damascus Museum). Three stages in story are presented simultaneously, which is typical of third century narrative art. Dagon statue falls; sacred utensils are scattered; ark being removed from temple.[/c]

 

[Jim47]

Brethren in Christ, peace be with you...

I will likely not be responding to this thread...I say likely because I didn't intend to ever come back to this forum...and I did anyway. I wanted to share somethings that I think may be useful and I hope they are read with the sincerity in which they were written.

The Old Testament was pretty clear about not getting involved with graven images/idolatry, right? The people got in all sorts of trouble for making a golden calf and worshipping it...there are many other examples of what not to do.

But there are some interesting cases in the Old Testament where people did some similiar-looking things as we Catholics do...and they were not sinning at all. On the contrary, they were blessed by God.

For example, the golden serpent that the Lord commanded be made to protect the Israelites in the desert from actual snakes. They made the golden serpent and anyone looking at it was protected. So, how can making an image of a serpent by acceptable, even commanded by God, if we aren't supposed to make any images of anything on earth? How is it that this golden serpent actually had the power to protect people? Think about this and see why it is different than the golden calf debacle, my brothers in Christ.
Clearly making icons is not making idols...and honoring these icons is not worshipping them. Big difference my brothers...do you see the difference?

So what else besides golden calfs can be idols? Anything that is higher than God in your heart is an idol! It doesn't have to be a literal golden calf...it could be money, sex, materialism...even hatred of your fellow Christian brethren. The last being a pretty serious sin, as we would all agree, I think.

God Bless

My reply will be aimed at answering your questions and not aimed at crtiicism, although I do not share your beliefs.

The example of the serphant which was bronze, not gold, "and" was commanded by God, was to for shaddow the coming of Christ who also would be lifted up as a sacrifice that all believes in Him would not perish. If you go back to the reading of Moses lifting up the serphant, you will see that those who were bitten by the snakes, and trusted God's Word, and looked upon the bronze serphant were spared death. Why were they spared? Not because of majic, but because of their faith in what God had instructed them, right?

As for Mary, the mother of Jesus. She is not to be prayed to, for how did Jesus instruct us to pray? He taught us to pray to God The Father, not to saints, or Mary or anyone else. Examples of prayer:

Mt 6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Luk 6:12 Now it was during this time that Jesus went out to the mountain to pray, and he spent all night in prayer to God.


Act 26:29 Paul replied, "I pray to God that whether in a short or a long time not only you but also all those who are listening to me today could become such as I am, except for these chains."

We also see David doing an interesting thing. He is described as dancing and putting gifts before the Ark of the Covenant. Yet another golden item that the Jews respected as most holy...they couldn't even touch the ark or they would die. Does this look like anything that we Catholics do? Well, we say Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant...clearly Jesus is greater than the Ten Commandments, right? Wouldn't the woman that carried Jesus and protected him as a child be even more holy than the Ark of the Old Covenant? Is it so wrong to crown statues of Mary with flowers to honor her? Is it wrong to sing her praises, like David did before the Ark of the Old Covenent?

David was dancing and singing to The Lord, who dwelled within the ark. The covenant was part of God's promise to dwell among them.


1Ch 15:29 As the ark of the covenant of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David dancing and celebrating, she despised him in her heart.


Mary is Holy only because of the blood of Christ which cleanses her from sin, just as His blood cleanses us.
Mt 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

Mt 12:48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

So the next time you think statues of Mary is idolatry think back to how the people respected the Ark of the Covenant. The next time you think Miraculous Medals of Our Lady are blasphemous "magic talismans" or something similiar, think back to the Golden Serpent. Compare these things to the real cases of idolatry...both in the Old Testament...and in our hearts.

I am not aware of any scripture which instructs us to pay tribute to Mary, and yes, I do agrre with you that there are many forms of idolatry, material possesions and the like.

 

[Oblio]

I am not aware of any scripture which instructs us to pay tribute to Mary,

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
(Luke 1:46-48 KJV)

 

[Oblio]

As for Mary, the mother of Jesus. She is not to be prayed to, for how did Jesus instruct us to pray? He taught us to pray to God The Father, not to saints, or Mary or anyone else. Examples of prayer:

Do a word search on pray in the KJV and see how many times it is not used as a term of worship, but as a synonym for petition. In that use, we are to ask others (pray) to go before God on our behalf.

 

[Matthan]

It sounds like the same old same old to me......

Matthan <J><

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So we follow the Bible in regularly calling Mary "blessed". And you guys call her what?

How do you honor this verse in Luke? How does your Church honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus? In what way does your faith have you calling Mary "blessed"?

Do I understand you guys correctly? Let’s be crytal clear what you are saying.

You are equating worshipping a Golden calf with our calling Mary, the Mother of God, "blessed" (basically quoting scripture) and asking her to pray for us. Kneeling to kiss the Cross in solemn remembrance of the suffering Jesus did for all of us and reminding us of the cruel tool of our salvation, that would be equal to bowing to a false idol. Kneeling before a statue or Crucifix, Cross or picture in private prayer/devotion TO GOD, whether that petition is to a Saint or directly to God, that is the same as bowing to Baal. Lighting candles and burning incense while doing any and all of the above just reinforces the idea in your mind that all of this is pagan idol worship.

Just call me Bubba P. Love. If this makes me a pagan in your eyes, then make it a PAGAN with capital letters please. That way I can distinguish when you refer to our and many other's practices expressing our faith in God compared to what I know the scriptures meant concerning images (for you that would be like Satan worship or Baal..etc). I know you make no such distinction between those practices and our worship of God, but at least we (that is us PAGANS) can be clear what you mean. So you can still lump us in with all the rest of the pagans, but it allows us to understand what particular practice you are refering to.

So it is PAGAN when you refer to what we do and pagan for everything else. Agreed? Would that break rules? Might have to ask for a rule change here, less some one think you are calling them non-Christian, which is clearly not allowed.

 

[Albion]

Brethren in Christ, peace be with you...

I will likely not be responding to this thread...I say likely because I didn't intend to ever come back to this forum...and I did anyway. I wanted to share somethings that I think may be useful and I hope they are read with the sincerity in which they were written.

The Old Testament was pretty clear about not getting involved with graven images/idolatry, right? The people got in all sorts of trouble for making a golden calf and worshipping it...there are many other examples of what not to do.

But there are some interesting cases in the Old Testament where people did some similiar-looking things as we Catholics do...and they were not sinning at all. On the contrary, they were blessed by God.

For example, the golden serpent that the Lord commanded be made to protect the Israelites in the desert from actual snakes. They made the golden serpent and anyone looking at it was protected. So, how can making an image of a serpent by acceptable, even commanded by God, if we aren't supposed to make any images of anything on earth? How is it that this golden serpent actually had the power to protect people? Think about this and see why it is different than the golden calf debacle, my brothers in Christ.

We also see David doing an interesting thing. He is described as dancing and putting gifts before the Ark of the Covenant. Yet another golden item that the Jews respected as most holy...they couldn't even touch the ark or they would die. Does this look like anything that we Catholics do? Well, we say Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant...clearly Jesus is greater than the Ten Commandments, right? Wouldn't the woman that carried Jesus and protected him as a child be even more holy than the Ark of the Old Covenant? Is it so wrong to crown statues of Mary with flowers to honor her? Is it wrong to sing her praises, like David did before the Ark of the Old Covenent?

Clearly making icons is not making idols...and honoring these icons is not worshipping them. Big difference my brothers...do you see the difference?

So what else besides golden calfs can be idols? Anything that is higher than God in your heart is an idol! It doesn't have to be a literal golden calf...it could be money, sex, materialism...even hatred of your fellow Christian brethren. The last being a pretty serious sin, as we would all agree, I think.

So the next time you think statues of Mary is idolatry think back to how the people respected the Ark of the Covenant. The next time you think Miraculous Medals of Our Lady are blasphemous "magic talismans" or something similiar, think back to the Golden Serpent. Compare these things to the real cases of idolatry...both in the Old Testament...and in our hearts.

God Bless

My reaction is that there isn't a good comparison between the OT passages and the devotions that are directed to Mary and other saints. For instance, God commanded the serpent be constructed for a specific and temporary purpose; we are not directed to worship dead people through use of an image. It looked to me that you couldn't bring yourself to make a clear comparison between the Ark of the Covenant and statues of saints, for a good reason I assume--there isn't a real comparison. The Ark you correctly described as being perceived by the Hebrews as Holy, but there is no worship of it. And so on.

The main point to be made here, as I see it, is not the construction of artifacts alone, but how they are used. WORSHIP, prayer, intercessions are directed to the statues of saints, but that is not the place of the Old Testament artifacts in the examples we were given to ponder. So, sing praises OF admirable people now passed on, remember their examples, yes. Just don't direct TO them the honor or prayer that belongs to God alone.

 

[Albion]

I am not aware of any scripture which instructs us to pay tribute to Mary,

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
(Luke 1:46-48 KJV)

Well, I'm a Protestant and do indeed give thanks during the liturgy for the lives of the saints gone before, Mary included. But I have to draw the line at praying to any saint. For that there is no verse in scripture, at least not to my knowledge.

 

[Jim47]

I certainly will not deny anything written in the scriptures in referance to Mary's statement that all nations will call her blessed, for indeed she was blessed, but so were many other people in the bible. I will give only one other example as I do not wish to enter into a meaningless debate over the Catholic faith. If you have a concordance, look in it and you find many examples that God had blessed people, or said that people would be blessed through them. Here is but one example of Abraham. I also am unaware of any scripture which instructs us to pray to anyone besides God. Asking someone else to pray for you of course is good, but they have to be alive to do so.


Ge 12:2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. Ge 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

 

[Patristic]

I also am unaware of any scripture which instructs us to pray to anyone besides God. Asking someone else to pray for you of course is good, but they have to be alive to do so.

The knife cuts both ways. I am unaware of any Scripture specifically mandating that a person must be physically present on the earth in order for us to ask them to pray for us.

 

[CaDan]

Do a word search on pray in the KJV and see how many times it is not used as a term of worship, but as a synonym for petition. In that use, we are to ask others (pray) to go before God on our behalf.

Spot on.

The final portion of a complaint in court is known as the "prayer for relief".

It goes something like this:

Wherefore, Plaintiff prays this Court for the following relief:

1. Judgment for Plaintiff and against Defendant in an amount to be determined at trial, but reasonably believed to be in excess of $50,000.00;

2. Such other and further relief as the Court deems just and equitable.
​

 

[Albion]

The knife cuts both ways. I am unaware of any Scripture specifically mandating that a person must be physically present on the earth in order for us to ask them to pray for us.

And I don't know of any verse that specifically says that there are not people on Mars to whom we should pray, but let's be serious. The Bible is the best guide any of us can have to truth, and "going where no man has gone before" in scripture is not a sound theological position to take. It has no end and, in a way, it mocks scripture by suggesting, I think, that God didn't do a sufficient job when he decided what to reveal to us. But I will suggest a tie-breaker if you don't agree with me that we are not at liberty to add to Scripture. What example did Jesus give us? He never prayer to dead mortals. He was asked by his closest followers how to pray...and you know the answer. He prayed to God, and we always say that what he did sets a path before us too.

What is wrong or uncomfortable about standing on that?

Also, why would anyone need to pray to a secondary being--even if this were not offensive to God--if we are invited to go to the top straightaway? The argument that if one asks a saint to intercede with God because that person presumably has more "pull" with God than the petitioner on Earth, doesn't that suggest that we are doubtful about trusting in what Jesus repeatedly told us to do?

 

[CaDan]

And I don't know of any verse that specifically says that there are not people on Mars to whom we should pray, but let's be serious. The Bible is the best guide any of us can have to truth, and "going where no man has gone before" in scripture is not a sound theological position to take. It has no end and, in a way, it mocks scripture by suggesting, I think, that God didn't do a sufficient job when he decided what to reveal to us. But I will suggest a tie-breaker if you don't agree with me that we are not at liberty to add to Scripture. What example did Jesus give us? He never prayer to dead mortals. He was asked by his closest followers how to pray...and you know the answer. He prayed to God, and we always say that what he did sets a path before us too.

What is wrong or uncomfortable about standing on that?

Also, why would anyone need to pray to a secondary being--even if this were not offensive to God--if we are invited to go to the top straightaway? The argument that if one asks a saint to intercede with God because that person presumably has more "pull" with God than the petitioner on Earth, doesn't that suggest that we are doubtful about trusting in what Jesus repeatedly told us to do?

My understanding of the idea is that the church does not consist only of those on earth--it also consists of those who have passed on before. So asking those who have passed on to pray for us is no different from asking your friends or your pastor or those on CF to pray for you.

 

[Iollain]

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


I don't see anything here about ...'and oh yeah, you will be able to make contact with them, they can hear you they will be with you even in the bathroom. Ask those Saints to pray, for it will do much good" God forgot this part in His Written Word for some reason.

 

[arunma]

Correct me if I'm wrong (or if someone already brought this up). But didn't God command Moses to destroy the golden serpent when the Israelites started worshiping it?

Don't get me wrong. I love Catholics, and I don't think that they are idolaters. I'm just not sure that was the best example.

 

[seebs]

Correct me if I'm wrong (or if someone already brought this up). But didn't God command Moses to destroy the golden serpent when the Israelites started worshiping it?

I think you're thinking of the golden calf.