Graven Images

[arunma]

No Seebs, I remember that the golden serpent was also destroyed, even though God originally intended that it should help the Israelites. Maybe I'm confusing it with something else, but I didn't have the Golden Calf in mind.

 

[CaDan]

No Seebs, I remember that the golden serpent was also destroyed, even though God originally intended that it should help the Israelites. Maybe I'm confusing it with something else, but I didn't have the Golden Calf in mind.

Yup, it was broken:

[bible]2 Kings 18:4[/bible]

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Correct me if I'm wrong (or if someone already brought this up). But didn't God command Moses to destroy the golden serpent when the Israelites started worshiping it?

Don't get me wrong. I love Catholics, and I don't think that they are idolaters. I'm just not sure that was the best example.

When they started using it as an idol and worshiping it as a God.... yes.

And that would be exactly the point. As long as it was not worshiped as a God it was fine.....


Forgive me....

 

[arunma]

Well anyway, I don't really see anything wrong with icons. The only icons that I think should be forbidden are images of God the Father, because he has no form. I really don't think there's anything wrong with images of Mary.

However, I personally am rather averse to icons. I've often thought about becoming a Catholic, but the veneration of Mary and the use of icons are a couple issues that keep me away (though there are others). I guess it's just a personal preference thing. Also, I like the Baptist church.

 

[Oblio]

The only icons that I think should be forbidden are images of God the Father, because he has no form.

As it is in the Orthodox Church.

The only place you will fing Him represented is in the Hospitality of Abraham icon (3 Angels/Holy Trinity visiting Abraham & Sarah) but this represents a historical Biblical event.

 

[arunma]

As it is in the Orthodox Church.

The only place you will fing Him represented is in the Hospitality of Abraham icon (3 Angels/Holy Trinity visiting Abraham & Sarah) but this represents a historical Biblical event.

Really? I've always been interested in the Orthodox church. Maybe you can tell me more.

 

[Oblio]

[c]

The Hospitality of Abraham - Andre Rublev[/c]

 

[FreeinChrist]

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;


"graven image" - Hebrew word is pesel and refers to an idol which has been carved or cast or made of wood

"likeness" - Hebrew word timunah - something shaped, an image, an embodiment, a form,

"bow down" - Hebrew word shachah - to prostrate oneself in homage, to bow dow down, to sink down, to humbly beseech, to worship

I am not making any judgment, just offerring this information.

 

[Qoheleth]

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;


"graven image" - Hebrew word is pesel and refers to an idol which has been carved or cast or made of wood

"likeness" - Hebrew word timunah - something shaped, an image, an embodiment, a form,

"bow down" - Hebrew word shachah - to prostrate oneself in homage, to bow dow down, to sink down, to humbly beseech, to worship

I am not making any judgment, just offerring this information.

Why is it that in context, this preceeding verse is not employed in this discussion?

Exd. 20
3"You shall have no other gods before me".

The following verse (4) can only be interpreted in context to verse 3. The prohibition is against a false god or idol of our own imagination and conjuring. This is very plain and a straight commandment.

Genesis 1
27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

Exodus 20
4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".


Now you did some of the work here and thats excellent, but continue on, get a Hebrew translation of these two above and compare the words "image" in both cases. Translate the entire verses. Translate "unto" for the correct meaning and you will see the entire context of this commandment.


Q

 

[FreeinChrist]

Why is it that in context, this preceeding verse is not employed in this discussion?

Exd. 20
3"You shall have no other gods before me".

The following verse (4) can only be interpreted in context to verse 3. The prohibition is against a false god or idol of our own imagination and conjuring. This is very plain and a straight commandment.

Genesis 1
27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

Exodus 20
4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".


Now you did some of the work here and thats excellent, but continue on, get a Hebrew translation of these two above and compare the words "image" in both cases. Translate the entire verses. Translate "unto" for the correct meaning and you will see the entire context of this commandment.


Q

Genesis 1:27 - the Hebrew word for image is Tselem, which means means 'to shade', resemblence, illusion, a representative figure, and can mean idol.

Exodus 20:4 "graven image" - "graven image" - Hebrew word is pesel and refers to an idol which has been carved or cast or made of wood

There is no Hebrew word for "unto" in Exodus 20:4. It is added for English understanding.

So I am not exactly sure what point you are getting at.
Obviously we are not to make idols and worship them.
Now, whether bowing down to a sculpted, cast, carved image of saint as a method of communing with God is against the commandment, and if the act of bowing down means subjecting oneself to the image...that is probably the question.

My impression is that Christians who are praying in front of statues are not bowing down (prostrating oneself, being subject to) that statue, or worshipping it at all, nor worshipping the person the statue stands for.

However, there are a few that I worry about. I have a friend who has a 18 ct. gold charm of Mary and beleives that if she holds the charm when praying to mary, her prayer will be honored more than if she is not holding it. She in her 60's, lifetime Catholic, mass everyday, quotes the Catechism. Yes, I know that the Catholic church doesn't teach this. But I think there are some people who are more susceptible to taking a practice to an unhealthy level.

 

[Iollain]

Well anyway, I don't really see anything wrong with icons. The only icons that I think should be forbidden are images of God the Father, because he has no form. I really don't think there's anything wrong with images of Mary.

However, I personally am rather averse to icons. I've often thought about becoming a Catholic, but the veneration of Mary and the use of icons are a couple issues that keep me away (though there are others). I guess it's just a personal preference thing. Also, I like the Baptist church.

There is one woman who claims God wanted an icon, Eugenia Ravasio. Apparently God the Father told her he wanted to be close to everyone with an icon.

 

[Albion]

Well anyway, I don't really see anything wrong with icons. The only icons that I think should be forbidden are images of God the Father, because he has no form. I really don't think there's anything wrong with images of Mary.

However, I personally am rather averse to icons. I've often thought about becoming a Catholic, but the veneration of Mary and the use of icons are a couple issues that keep me away (though there are others). I guess it's just a personal preference thing. Also, I like the Baptist church.

As with so much else in religion, it is not the object itself that is the issue so much as the use of it. On the flip side of that, notice how many times a question about the use or practice of certain devotionals brings a defense of the artifacts themselves, while the issue of the use of them does not get addressed.