Grand jury to weigh evidence of criminal charges against Trump Organization

[Kentonio]

Finally it's happening. Cyrus Vance's office has set up a grand jury to hear criminal charges against the Trump Organization.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...47911c-bcca-11eb-83e3-0ca705a96ba4_story.html

 

[Occams Barber]

Finally it's happening. Cyrus Vance's office has set up a grand jury to hear criminal charges against the Trump Organization.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...47911c-bcca-11eb-83e3-0ca705a96ba4_story.html

Your Washington Post article is behind a paywall. This HuffPost version seems to be free-to-access. It quotes the WaPo article.

OB

Prosecutors Convene Grand Jury That Could Weigh Potential Trump Charges: Reports | HuffPost

 

[Fantine]

Obviously they feel they have an excellent case. They wouldn't do this prematurely.

 

[Der Alte]

Your Washington Post article is behind a paywall. This HuffPost version seems to be free-to-access. It quotes the WaPo article.
OB
Prosecutors Convene Grand Jury That Could Weigh Potential Trump Charges: Reports | HuffPost

Obviously they feel they have an excellent case. They wouldn't do this prematurely.

Copied this from the link. Read this carefully.

"Among the issues investigators are looking into is whether Trump improperly inflated the value of his assets to take out loans, and improperly deflated their value when it came time to file his taxes."​

What is horribly wrong with this picture?
When does a financial institution not know the value of property they are lending money on?
What is criminal about an astute businessman over valuing his property to increase its loan value?
And when does the IRS not know the value of the same property which has been taxed for umpteen years.
I'm a retiree, not a millionaire a few years ago I did not include my social security on my tax return because I did not receive the 1099s. It wasn't long, same year, before I got a nasty gram from IRS demanding I pay up. If they come after me for about $2000 I'm certain they will go after a millionaire whose taxes probably run in the millions.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Copied this from the link. Read this carefully.

"Among the issues investigators are looking into is whether Trump improperly inflated the value of his assets to take out loans, and improperly deflated their value when it came time to file his taxes."​

What is horribly wrong with this picture?
When does a financial institution not know the value of property they are lending money on?
What is criminal about an astute businessman over valuing his property to increase its loan value?
And when does the IRS not know the value of the same property which has been taxed for umpteen years.
I'm a retiree, not a millionaire a few years ago I did not include my social security on my tax return because I did not receive the 1099s. It wasn't long, same year, before I got a nasty gram from IRS demanding I pay up. If they come after me for about $2000 I'm certain they will go after a millionaire whose taxes probably run in the millions.

It’s a crime called bank fraud.

 

[LonelyAdams]

That man had done so much messed up stuff. I hope the can catch him in at least on of his crimes. We won't survive as a country if the rich and poweful don't have to obey the law.

 

[Der Alte]

It’s a crime called bank fraud.

Really? The banks were stupid and couldn't pick up a phone and find out the true value of the property?

 

[Der Alte]

That man had done so much messed up stuff. I hope the can catch him in at least on of his crimes. We won't survive as a country if the rich and poweful don't have to obey the law.

Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Really? The banks were stupid and couldn't pick up a phone and find out the true value of the property?

Who do you call to find out how much a hotel in downtown Manhattan is worth? Zillow? (Yes the tax assessors office has a valuation, but that's also part of the problem.)

Commercial properties are (I think) valuated (in part) by the revenue of the building. Reporting (and ex-Trump Org insiders) have claimed that he manipulates the numbers provided to banks to make the property look more valuable when taking out a mortgage against the property. (That would be bank fraud.) While simultaneously providing *different* numbers to tax officials to reduce his property taxes. (That would be tax fraud.)

We'll see if they charge these kinds of actions and how they present those charges.

 

[Fantine]

Simultaneously, he undervalued his buildings for tax purposes, underpaying property taxes by millions.

 

[Der Alte]

Who do you call to find out how much a hotel in downtown Manhattan is worth? Zillow? (Yes the tax assessors office has a valuation, but that's also part of the problem.)
Commercial properties are (I think) valuated (in part) by the revenue of the building. Reporting (and ex-Trump Org insiders) have claimed that he manipulates the numbers provided to banks to make the property look more valuable when taking out a mortgage against the property. (That would be bank fraud.) While simultaneously providing *different* numbers to tax officials to reduce his property taxes. (That would be tax fraud.)
We'll see if they charge these kinds of actions and how they present those charges.

Still assumes bankers were/are stupid. Dealing in millions of dollars they are not going to take some customers word for what a property is worth.
Bank pres. turns to associate "Hey Fred check out a few of your contacts and a few buildings and see about how much this bldg is really worth."
And why didn't the IRS know how much tax was paid on the property in the past? They certainly knew how much tax I paid in previous years.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Still assumes bankers were/are stupid. Dealing in millions of dollars they are not going to take some customers word for what a property is worth.
Bank pres. turns to associate "Hey Fred check out a few of your contacts and a few buildings and see about how much this bldg is really worth."
And why didn't the IRS know how much tax was paid on the property in the past? They certainly knew how much tax I paid in previous years.

Too know how much a commercial property is worth requires knowledge of how much money it brings in. Only Trump’s business would know that so it has to report it to both banks (for loan applications) and the IRS (for tax purposes). It is alleged that Trump purposely over reported how much he was bringing in when he was talking to banks so they would give him a higher valuation (this is bank fraud). It is also alleged Trump would under report how much he was bringing in when he was talking to the IRS so they would give him a lower valuation (this is tax fraud). Both have you sign something that says the numbers you gave them are accurate to the best of your knowledge and it is a punishable crime if you are lying.

 

[Pommer]

Really? The banks were stupid and couldn't pick up a phone and find out the true value of the property?

Should have the banks done more due-diligence (for the fiduciary principles), sure, “yes”.

But the crime doesn’t depend on whether one gets over on one’s victims.
At least Trump had real estate on this plane, not like the Ostein’s and Copeland’s who dupe people outta their money for a better piece of “real estate” in the “next life”!

 

[Der Alte]

Simultaneously, he undervalued his buildings for tax purposes, underpaying property taxes by millions.

Nonsense. All they had to do was tap a few keys on a computer to find out how much taxes had been paid on a property in the past.
They certainly did for me a few years ago. See my post #4 above.
Grand jury to weigh evidence of criminal charges against Trump Organization
I was in a native American casino in Yuma a few years ago. When I walked in the door I saw a bank of slot machines taped off with yellow tape. At a folding table inside the tape was a working class guy and a suit from the IRS. The working guy had hit a slot for $250K and uncle was right there getting their cut before working guy got a penny. If the IRS does it for $75/100K they are certainly going to do it for millions.
If Trump had committed bank fraud before he was elected the IRS should have been on him like white on rice.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I'm a retiree, not a millionaire a few years ago I did not include my social security on my tax return because I did not receive the 1099s. It wasn't long, same year, before I got a nasty gram from IRS demanding I pay up. If they come after me for about $2000 I'm certain they will go after a millionaire whose taxes probably run in the millions.

Why are you certain of that? Perhaps you should do a little more reading on the matter before proclaiming to everybody that Trump is obviously innocent because no banker and no IRS official would ever let something like this slip.

In fact, auditing wealthy people is more difficult than auditing poor people and the IRS' lack of resources to pursue those wealthier tax dodgers has been a longstanding problem:
IRS: Sorry, but It’s Just Easier and Cheaper to Audit the Poor — ProPublica
Why the Rich Don’t Get Audited (Published 2019)
The government just admitted it doesn't really try to collect taxes owed by rich people

The Biden administration is seeking to fix this:
Biden to Seek $80 Billion to Bolster IRS, Tax Enforcement

 

[Belk]

Nonsense. All they had to do was tap a few keys on a computer to find out how much taxes had been paid on a property in the past.
They certainly did for me a few years ago. See my post #4 above.
Grand jury to weigh evidence of criminal charges against Trump Organization
I was in a native American casino in Yuma a few years ago. When I walked in the door I saw a bank of slot machines taped off with yellow tape. At a folding table inside the tape was a working class guy and a suit from the IRS. The working guy had hit a slot for $250K and uncle was right there getting their cut before working guy got a penny. If the IRS does it for $75/100K they are certainly going to do it for millions.
If Trump had committed bank fraud before he was elected the IRS should have been on him like white on rice.

And your expertise in the land of high value property deals and IRS audits comes from where exactly?

 

[Der Alte]

And your expertise in the land of high value property deals and IRS audits comes from where exactly?

See my post #4 above.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Nonsense. All they had to do was tap a few keys on a computer to find out how much taxes had been paid on a property in the past.
They certainly did for me a few years ago. See my post #4 above.
Grand jury to weigh evidence of criminal charges against Trump Organization
I was in a native American casino in Yuma a few years ago. When I walked in the door I saw a bank of slot machines taped off with yellow tape. At a folding table inside the tape was a working class guy and a suit from the IRS. The working guy had hit a slot for $250K and uncle was right there getting their cut before working guy got a penny. If the IRS does it for $75/100K they are certainly going to do it for millions.
If Trump had committed bank fraud before he was elected the IRS should have been on him like white on rice.

lol wut? How long ago was this? Did this slot machine pay out in quarters? Every machine I've seen in the last 20 years pays out digitally past a certain amount. The casino cuts you a check and, where appropriate, would withhold the taxes and file the appropriate forms. There is no agent there, collecting quarters ahead of you.

 

[iluvatar5150]

See my post #4 above.

IOW, you're just blindly guessing. You assume that since they went after you, the small fish, that they'd automatically go after the big fish.

 

[wing2000]

See my post #4 above.

....yea, I'm sure defense counsel will be calling you as an expert witness.