Grand Canyon Disproves Creationism

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The inability of creationists to define what a Biblical kind is has been remarked on CF before. A Biblical kind apparently means whatever creationists want it to mean at the moment.
The word kind means just that; the kind of animal it is.
The Bible doesn't classify into species or subspecies.
Asking people to define what the Bible does not define is an exercise in speculation.
In the Bible all things which are made are God-made. Sharing the same Creator, they share the same origin.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: BroRoyVa79
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,162
1,223
71
Sebring, FL
✟657,508.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The word kind means just that; the kind of animal it is.
The Bible doesn't classify into species or subspecies.
Asking people to define what the Bible does not define is an exercise in speculation.
In the Bible all things which are made are God-made. Sharing the same Creator, they share the same origin.

The problem is that in practice a Biblical "kind" means whatever a Creationist wants it to mean at the moment. It doesn't mean much of anything.

Some Creationists say that a "kind" is a taxonomic family. There can be 40,000 species of plants in a taxonomic family, for instance. So a "kind" is pretty vague, if it means anything.
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The problem is that in practice a Biblical "kind" means whatever a Creationist wants it to mean at the moment. It doesn't mean much of anything.
It is not a biological classification. The Bible is not a science book. If anything, it's a book that proves natural law yields to the will of the Creator.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BroRoyVa79
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,162
1,223
71
Sebring, FL
✟657,508.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
It is not a biological classification. The Bible is not a science book. If anything, it's a book that proves natural law yields to the will of the Creator.


The Bible is not a science book. That's why the notion of a Biblical "kind" is a meaningless concept. If that's supposed to be the basis of opposition to evolution, there is no reason to question evolution.
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Bible is not a science book. That's why the notion of a Biblical "kind" is a meaningless concept. If that's supposed to be the basis of opposition to evolution, there is no reason to question evolution.
The classification of animals into categories is man's folly. It began with Aristotle and his book "History of animals," Aristotle did not not believe in evolution. He believed in a hierarchy of living things that shared no common history.

The reason we know that evolution is a lie is that the Bible tells us the world was created mature in six days; that death and sin came into the world through one man; that all living things were saved through the actions of one man and that mankind has the offer of salvation through one man. This is what the word of God teaches us. Evolution is heresy and its proponents are false teachers. Evolution teaches contrary to the word of God and as such cannot possibly have its roots in truth.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,162
1,223
71
Sebring, FL
✟657,508.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The classification of animals into categories is man's folly. It began with Aristotle and his book "History of animals," Aristotle did not not believe in evolution. He believed in a hierarchy of living things that shared no common history.

The reason we know that evolution is a lie is that the Bible tells us the world was created mature in six days; that death and sin came into the world through one man; that all living things were saved through the actions of one man and that mankind has the offer of salvation through one man. This is what the word of God teaches us. Evolution is heresy and its proponents are false teachers. Evolution teaches contrary to the word of God and as such cannot possibly have its roots in truth.


You say that evolution is heresy.

Evolution is not a religious dogma. It is not a religious concept.

Those who teach evolution are following the facts. They are not commenting on religious principles.

When you say that evolution is heresy you are simply attacking the people that you don't agree with.
Not helpful.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,223
2,786
Hartford, Connecticut
✟292,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Its not about whether or not any scientist is being half hearted.

db9f5b856f0daed6ca21ce745c127dab.jpg



This ^ just doesnt instantly form. I think anyone who is really honest with themselves, ought to understand this.

We know that many of these layers, were hardened and solified rock, prior to erosion. If anyone has any doubt about that, feel free to check out my post.

Old Earth Geology Part 2 (The Grand Canyon)

Rivers just dont carve rock, not rocks like those of the grand canyon, in any expedited way. Unless the waters were some form of really pure grade acid.

But beyond that, rivers in motion, and water moving at high speeds, doesnt meander in such abrupt ways. High powered flood waters destroy and push through objects. Meanders on the other hand, are formations that form slowly. Meanders grow over time as water continuously carves each bend on the channel.

And this is just one simple example, of many, as to why it is quite clear, that the earth is very old.

And nobody is being deceptive, or hiding some sort of conspiracy, or anything like that. This is just common sense.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,223
2,786
Hartford, Connecticut
✟292,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I also added a post later to the above topic about cataclastic metamorphism, and another person mentioned shearing of formations as well that includes the shearing of fossils.
strain.html.jpg


And as hard rock itself is placed under intense confining pressure, it bends, and fossils bend within it as well. So you can even establish the fact that deformation came after the deposition and lithification of rock. Which is fantastic, because when you throw in super position and cross cutting relations (with respect to faulting an unconformities), you realize that there is no way the grand canyon could feasibly form in any short amount of time due to a flood.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,223
2,786
Hartford, Connecticut
✟292,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So, this is really classic geology here but

y+than+the+ss+%E2%80%93+Y+%E2%80%93+dike+cuts+ss..jpg


With the grand canyon, you end up with something similar to the above diagram, in which you have the deposition and lithification of rock, followed by deformation and faulting, followed by more deposition and lithification of rock, followed by more faulting, and further more deposition and lithification of rock, then subsequent erosion by a meandering river through solid rock.
 
Upvote 0

GBTG

Active Member
Nov 2, 2017
157
29
48
Luverne
✟14,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
@KomatiiteBIF (Sarcasm)

Heresy! :) You must stop this logical thought and proof, so that I can continue to ignore the evidence of an old Earth because the traditional religious view has been shown to be right, more often than not, in any aspect of religion vs science! Case in point Copernicus was a dumb christian scientist that made the church angry when he discovered the Sun did not revolve around the Earth and the poor dumb Christian paleontologist (PhD) that showed that soft tissue could be preserved for millions of years in a dinosaur bone. Nope... My understanding is correct cause my pastor told me, like his Dad before him! Dinosaurs walked with Adam ~6k years ago, cause God supernaturally did so, we are to be ignorant of his creation and only focus on his Glory and Grace... Stupid scientist, you have traded your faith for intellect, for you can't possibly be both... rolls eyes.

PS if you think this is harsh, this is essentially what YEC'ers espouse to Christian scientists like myself when you talk about YEC. To those of us that are Christians and in the Sciences, there is overwhelming evidence in favor of OEC. Just ask yourself to which view you prescribe pre-Copernicus or post-Copernicus church, because science won that argument (and many others). Guess what it had no effect on whether God existed or not!? It did not make the Bible any more or less accurate! Do you want to be the Christian that brings people to Christ or the one that sounds like a crack-pot with 2 teeth in their head? That may seam harsh, but believe you me its an accurate description of what my colleagues say after speaking to a YEC.

Creation happened! It happened in 6 days, God completed his work on the 7th day. Who completed, what work, in what time? oh yeah GOD! So these are the "Days" of God! How long is a Day to God? This does not change the Bible one bit, and low and behold it matches the geologic evidence... Huh? Who would a thought?! There is NO WAY man could have gotten this wrong?! We are not dogmatic and prone to tradition by nature or anything?! But... but... it says Yom and "six" days in this scripture (enter what ever scripture you want from any version of the Bible you want)... see this shows God meant "six" literal days! Which conflicts with pretty much 100% of the physical evidence we can see, but again we are supposed to be ignorant of Gods creation or just understand that he made it this way supernaturally and we are not to question or VALIDATE any of his TRUTH. IS it TRUTH if its fallible? End Rant!

Regards, GBTG
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You say that evolution is heresy.
I do.
This is a "Christians only" section of the website. It's for Christian discussion and debate. That means that the Bible is given as the word of God and should be so respected. That word is quite clear; man was created by God and did not evolve from more simple life forms.

Evolution is a theory of man that attempts to explain the origination of life through natural processes. It is in 100% opposition to the word of God. You cannot accept evolution without rejecting the creation account, the Great Flood and the original fall of man; all of which are foundational doctrine.

Heresy is the teaching of doctrine that is contrary to what is accepted by the church and taught by God's word. Teaching that the Bible is wrong on foundational doctrine is heresy. It is not a personal attack to state the truth. The truth is what you are telling people is factual is 100% in opposition to the truth as the Lord revealed it. Evolution as a working theory may work in biology, but the simple fact is that nothing in biology would be any different with the origins as described in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

GBTG

Active Member
Nov 2, 2017
157
29
48
Luverne
✟14,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Micro-evolution is real as we can see morphology (changes) in dogs, a chihuahua to a Great Dane for example. Unless you think that is not accurate according to observation? Science can also prove morphology in dogs with genetics. Just like we have geological proof that the Earth is older than ~6 thousand years. Theory is theory scientific or otherwise. E=MC2 is a theory no one has disproved, it just works 99% of the time. We still don't call it a law or proof. As a Scientist I understand that we will never understand all the mysteries of the Universe. That's not the same as throwing up our hands or burying our heads in the sand, and being proactively ignorant to what God created. Stop with the ALL science or none of it argument! You don't get to say evolution is false (I agree) and then state therefore geology is also false (absurd conclusion)!? This is like saying 1+1=egg therefore an egg does not come from a chicken.

How did following doctrine work out for Jesus and the Jews? The Jews were very factual about his blasphemy! Truth is not the same as tradition! Again the Jews are very good at tradition and adhering to the law, again how did that work out? The example here is, don't be like a Pharisee! IF you have scientific observational proof that everything in our universe is older that ~6000 years. We (man) have to self reflect and see if we (man) have misunderstood or made poor conclusions that was taught for a very long time, because we had no accurate data to the contrary. There is no fault in this as its always happened! Inaccurately taught traditions are not the same as Truth. I have given this as an example numerous times utilizing Copernicus! Dogmatic tradition is what killed Christ, and I believe it's what's killing His church in this day and age! I am frankly tired of YEC arrogance... This arrogance is founded on tradition, not understanding (speaking as a former YEC).

@KomatiiteBIF has demonstrated many times that our physical Earth is older than ~6000 years. The most common rebuttal by a YEC is supernatural, this argument disregards the complexity, beauty, and understanding of our impressive planet! This also keeps people from self-reflecting as to the accuracy of their biblical teachings or conclusions, unless you are just "right" from the get go! When was the last time you pondered if I understood that passage correctly (rhetorical)?

Regards, GBTG
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
How did following doctrine work out for Jesus and the Jews?
In regards to Jesus, the prophesies were fulfilled and the will of the Father was carried out. As for the Jews, some accepted that Christ was the Messiah and became Christians, and others did not.
IF you have scientific observational proof that everything in our universe is older that ~6000 years. We (man) have to self reflect and see if we (man) have misunderstood or made poor conclusions that was taught for a very long time, because we had no accurate data to the contrary.
We had accurate data that an ax head could not float, that a man could not walk on water, that a man could not calm a storm, that a man could neither raise the dead nor return from the dead, that you couldn't feed 5,000 people with a few fish and bread loaves and have more left over than when you began, that the seas could be parted etc. In fact, there are 333 miracles in the Bible, none of which are scientifically possible. You either reject them all, you accept them all, or you devise some arbitrary method by which you accept some miracles and reject others. It is the lack of faith that causes you to reject God's word, not some enlightened scientific discoveries. That which is impossible today was equally impossible thousands of years ago.
The most common rebuttal by a YEC is supernatural, this argument disregards the complexity, beauty, and understanding of our impressive planet! This also keeps people from self-reflecting as to the accuracy of their biblical teachings or conclusions,
In other words, it keeps them from doubting their Bible and instead putting their faith in the words of men.
That's why I used the word heresy. You are here teaching people to ignore their Bibles and believe what you tell them.

I was raised an old earth creationists by a mother who was sure the earth was millions of years old. The trouble is, I could never find a single verse in the Bible to support this claim. The only way to pretend evolution happened is to completely reject the teaching of Genesis. Unfortunately, Christ quoted frequently from Genesis and told us that if we didn't believe the words of Moses we would never believe His words. There's no way to justify a complete rejection of Genesis without pretending that Jesus was, Himself, deceived. What you claim is 100% contrary to the word of God.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,162
1,223
71
Sebring, FL
✟657,508.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
In regards to Jesus, the prophesies were fulfilled and the will of the Father was carried out. As for the Jews, some accepted that Christ was the Messiah and became Christians, and others did not.

We had accurate data that an ax head could not float, that a man could not walk on water, that a man could not calm a storm, that a man could neither raise the dead nor return from the dead, that you couldn't feed 5,000 people with a few fish and bread loaves and have more left over than when you began, that the seas could be parted etc. In fact, there are 333 miracles in the Bible, none of which are scientifically possible. You either reject them all, you accept them all, or you devise some arbitrary method by which you accept some miracles and reject others. It is the lack of faith that causes you to reject God's word, not some enlightened scientific discoveries. That which is impossible today was equally impossible thousands of years ago.

In other words, it keeps them from doubting their Bible and instead putting their faith in the words of men.
That's why I used the word heresy. You are here teaching people to ignore their Bibles and believe what you tell them.

I was raised an old earth creationists by a mother who was sure the earth was millions of years old. The trouble is, I could never find a single verse in the Bible to support this claim. The only way to pretend evolution happened is to completely reject the teaching of Genesis. Unfortunately, Christ quoted frequently from Genesis and told us that if we didn't believe the words of Moses we would never believe His words. There's no way to justify a complete rejection of Genesis without pretending that Jesus was, Himself, deceived. What you claim is 100% contrary to the word of God.


Your post contains so many misconceptions that it is difficult to know where to begin, but here goes.

You say "Christ quoted frequently from Genesis ..."

Christ did not quote from the Creation story, for whatever reason.

In the Gospels, Adam is mentioned in a geneology in Luke, and no where else. Eve is never mentioned. Noah is mentioned only in passing: "As in the days of Noah ..."

The Garden of Eden isn't mentioned in the Gospels, either.

Jesus did put forward Abraham, Isaac and Jacob along with Moses as revered figures form the Old Testament.
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Christ did not quote from the Creation story, for whatever reason.
"Have you not read that from they beginning they were created male and female?"
In the Gospels, Adam is mentioned in a geneology in Luke, and no where else. Eve is never mentioned. Noah is mentioned only in passing: "As in the days of Noah ..."
Should they be the subject of every passage?
Jesus mentioned Noah by name. That's what you need to know.

The Garden of Eden isn't mentioned in the Gospels, either.
Neither are airplanes. What's your point?
Jesus did put forward Abraham, Isaac and Jacob along with Moses as revered figures form the Old Testament.
He also said that man should live by EVERY WORD that came from the mouth of God.
To which words would these refer?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GBTG

Active Member
Nov 2, 2017
157
29
48
Luverne
✟14,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We had accurate data that an ax head could not float, that a man could not walk on water, that a man could not calm a storm, that a man could neither raise the dead nor return from the dead, that you couldn't feed 5,000 people with a few fish and bread loaves and have more left over than when you began, that the seas could be parted etc. In fact, there are 333 miracles in the Bible, none of which are scientifically possible. You either reject them all, you accept them all, or you devise some arbitrary method by which you accept some miracles and reject others. It is the lack of faith that causes you to reject God's word, not some enlightened scientific discoveries. That which is impossible today was equally impossible thousands of years ago.

Thank you for providing this example! Jesus, Emmanuel, God amongst us in the flesh and blood, performed miracles! Lots and lots of miracles. John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." Our Lord and savior also gave many of the same abilities to his apostles through the Holy Spirit. I accept all of them! That said this is not an apples to apples comparison of supernatural.

Creation is a whole other matter (no pun intended). In every miracle that we know, Jesus altered the physical properties or boundaries of what we know to be possible as you have described. He did not create the fish or bread these items were handed to Him, He did not create the wine it was changed from water, He did not create Lazarus's body it was reanimated, etc... Through faith the Apostles were able to perform many of the same miracles (Peter walked on water). The strength of their faith gave them these abilities hence why peter did not walk on water long! Jesus was our God given example of what a "human" man could accomplish through FAITH as is described in the parable of the mustard seed.

These are all tiny miracles when compared to creation! The creation of EVERYTHING the whole Universe and Everything in it, as God described "In the beginning..." God in the father form, wills things into existence, John 1:1, thought becomes word, word manifests physical form. Way beyond supernatural, and way beyond what Jesus could do in human form. The reason is Humans are bound by physical laws, God the Father is the creator of those laws. Jesus was an example in human form as a practitioner and example of faith, an example of what we should try to attain through faith, those miracles Jesus performed can be given as spiritual gift through faith. We humans however cannot create life or matter.

In this regard please understand that God the Father, and Jesus the Son, in two different forms, perform two different functions. Jesus was bound by the laws of the physical Universe because he was human! Through faith we might move toward receiving some of those spiritual gifts Jesus gave as gifts or examples through the Holy spirit. God the Father is not bound by anything... Including time!

In simpler terms ask yourself can God be killed? Did Jesus die? Two forms for two very different functions. Not equal in time or space. Hence the terminology Father to son, not King to King, or Lord to Lord, the relationship is implied that Jesus was a lesser form of the same being, manifest in physical form. Lastly if YEC can default to "supernatural" whenever you run up against conflicting proof, ask yourself the following: Why did God use Mary? Did Mary carry Jesus for ~9 months? If she did or did not why or why not? God could have made Jesus mature, but he did not, Why? Jesus could have miraculously appeared from a desert fully grown but this did not happen... Jesus was and HAD to be human and everything that comes along with that, including being bound by those physical laws that God created, including birth and death.

Apples to Oranges comparison, which makes the new testament miracles argument invalid by comparison. Jesus showed tremendous reverence for the Lord our God, Father who is in heaven, the supreme form of God.

Warm regards, GBTG
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GBTG

Active Member
Nov 2, 2017
157
29
48
Luverne
✟14,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He also said that man should live by EVERY WORD that came from the mouth of God.
To which words would these refer?

I am referring to the Words which man, might have misunderstood, and in human arrogance we won't correct, out of tradition, rather than understanding! :)

I am saying that we should reflect on those words often when new information or understanding comes forward, scientific or otherwise. Your argument is that we (Christians) know the words well enough that no reflection is necessary, as that could alter what has been "traditionally" thought or taught. Which view seems to be arrogant?

Regards, GBTG
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Your argument is that we (Christians) know the words well enough that no reflection is necessary, as that could alter what has been "traditionally" thought or taught. Which view seems to be arrogant?
What matters is not what is traditionally taught, but what is true. We affirm the truth by going to the Word, not via the opinions of man. The Word tells us that man was created by God; that sin and death came into the world through Adam's sin, and therefor since there was no death there could be no evolution. Changing the word of God to conform to the theories of man doesn't make for a stronger belief, it makes for a rejection of God's word. Not that what I say I can validate through Scriptures. Nothing said contrary to the Scriptures contains truth. That's why man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,304
76
✟363,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Catastrophism. Mount St. Helens volcano made a small scale version of the grand canyon in a very short time, complete with many layers.

No. Because it was sudden, there are no entrenched meanders. Moreover, it demonstrates that a sudden flood could not have caused the Grand Canyon. The canyon could only have been suddenly cut if the sediments were soft. And yet there are places that are kilometers high. At Mt. St. Helens, the gullies cut by erosion from soft sediment collapse when they get higher than a few meters. So we know that the Grand Canyon was cut gradually out of rock.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GBTG

Active Member
Nov 2, 2017
157
29
48
Luverne
✟14,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
@KWCrazy

So nothing died before Adam? Interesting... not a single organism?! Did they all eat of the tree of life? What then is the second death? Why would God need to make two? If one is spiritual and one is physical to which to you do you think God was speaking about in the Garden of Eden? How do you confirm this conclusion, and how do you know it to be the truth according to God? Do animals get judged? Can an animal sin? What is the difference between the death of a man and the death of an animal? Do animals have souls?

I can save you the effort, The sin and death in the Garden of Eden was of the spirit, meaning Adam and Eve are the first spiritually culpable humans. This is what makes them special. They did bring sin and "spiritual" death into the world from the Garden of Eden, no other living thing can get the credit for that blunder. Furthermore, physical death had been around for some time or God would not have stated "replenish" the Earth in the 6th day of creation. Something LIVING had to be there and DIED prior for that verb to be used. Unless God is wrong and did not choose the appropriate WORD?!

Warm regards, GBTG

PS Stop with the evolution nonsense... even science has not shown this to be remotely true. Atheists are still hoping, but I think that search is going to be elusive! :) Evolution CANNOT be your only point of contention to disregard any/all secular science!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0