grafted in...

[Frogster]

Great points there Frogster! Spinning yer numbers.

Thanks bro. They have co-opted yeshua.

 

[tzadik]

Would you agree that culture can add emphasis or affect our view of a word?

Why is it that just MJ"s say yeshua, yet they just speak regular english the rest of the day?

In other words, you do see how an under meaning, or ones group can posess a word, as their own, whereby creating a "cliqueish" possession of said word?

It would be like if just sometimes, I said your name in french...

In other words, if you were with people of different nationalities and races, talking english all day long, maybe at a dinner. Would you only say their names in their native language?

You would call him by His real name as well, if you knew the significance and meaning behind His name, regardless if you speak English or Chinese. If you don't know the meaning of His name, or don't care to know, or don't care, then by all means, continue calling Him a name that doesn't mean anything. His Father gave Him a name that meant something, because after all He was to be the Messiah of the world!

 

[tzadik]

Isin't it amazing how Peter said the law was a yoke for the fathers, and wow...him too! Look at the wordage unable to bear..

10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

I've already addressed this with you on a different thread, but it seems you are still hanging on to G-d's HOLY LAW is an unbearable yoke that no one could bear.
Couple of things real quick.

At first glance what you are saying is: by teaching that the Gentile believers should keep G-d’s HOLY INSTRUCTIONS, they would be testing G-d, and placing a yoke that no one (including themselves and their forefathers) could bear. Even with the paraphrase alone, your statement is completely wrong, but because I don’t want you to take my word for it, I’ll show you how Scripture also disagrees with your interpretation.
So first question, was the Torah of G-d an unbearable yoke? Let’s ask the “OT” prophets.
David:

“O L-rd, I have remembered your Name in the night, I keep your LAW.” Obviously David is a self-proclaimed Torah keeper! G-d out of His own mouth, confirms that David kept Torah.

“Nevertheless I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, but I will make him ruler all the days of his life, for the sake of My servant David whom I chose, who observed My commandments and My statutes:”

hmmm.

Hezekiah kept the Torah of G-d.

”…Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah became king…he clung to the L-rd, he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the L-rd commanded Moses.”

G-d clearly tells us that the Torah is not too hard:

“For this command which I am commanding you today, it is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach…but the word is very near you, in your mouth, and in your heart that you may observe it.”

Do you realize that if James is saying what you’re saying he’s saying, He’d be speaking against the VERY Word of G-d?? Are you calling G-d a liar? Scary stuff man. G-d HIMSELF tells us that His commandments aren’t too difficult or out of reach, but close to us, so that we might observe it! John echoes this in:

“For this is the love of G-d, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.”

Just so that there’s no doubt;

“They were both righteous in the sight of G-d, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the L-rd.”

You mean they were walking blamelessly in what some call an unbearable yoke?

“…and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, KEEPING the LAW.”

Even Paul kept the Torah. And no it was not a hypocritical keeping of the Torah, so that He can deceptively win the Jews. He kept the Torah because He loved His Father and therefore kept His Word [Acts 25:8, 24:14].
What you call an unbearable yoke that no one could bear…is actually an extremely twisted and unfounded and more importantly unscriptural statement. It is actually quite the opposite as we see in:

“Thus says the L-rd, “stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and you will find REST for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.”

Before you go and call My Father's Holy Instructions a yoke that was unbearable for anyone to carry, please analyze and study the Scriptures. It's very dangerous when you prooftext without studying the context, and especially without proving it with the Entire Scriptures as a whole.
His Torah was the FURTHEST and continues to be the FURTHEST thing from an unbearable yoke that no one could bear.

 

[bugkiller]

You would call him by His real name as well, if you knew the significance and meaning behind His name, regardless if you speak English or Chinese. If you don't know the meaning of His name, or don't care to know, or don't care, then by all means, continue calling Him a name that doesn't mean anything. His Father gave Him a name that meant something, because after all He was to be the Messiah of the world!

So what name did Jesus' own brother call Him by. Please present Scriptural evidence. All the NT is written in Greek the common language of the day. Hewbrew was probably limited to religious activity. But I think there is some evidence that the Septuagint was used.

 

[bugkiller]

I've already addressed this with you on a different thread, but it seems you are still hanging on to G-d's HOLY LAW is an unbearable yoke that no one could bear.
Couple of things real quick.

At first glance what you are saying is: by teaching that the Gentile believers should keep G-d’s HOLY INSTRUCTIONS, they would be testing G-d, and placing a yoke that no one (including themselves and their forefathers) could bear. Even with the paraphrase alone, your statement is completely wrong, but because I don’t want you to take my word for it, I’ll show you how Scripture also disagrees with your interpretation.
So first question, was the Torah of G-d an unbearable yoke? Let’s ask the “OT” prophets.
David:

“O L-rd, I have remembered your Name in the night, I keep your LAW.” Obviously David is a self-proclaimed Torah keeper! G-d out of His own mouth, confirms that David kept Torah. hmmm.

Hezekiah kept the Torah of G-d.

G-d clearly tells us that the Torah is not too hard:
Do you realize that if James is saying what you’re saying he’s saying, He’d be speaking against the VERY Word of G-d?? Are you calling G-d a liar? Scary stuff man. G-d HIMSELF tells us that His commandments aren’t too difficult or out of reach, but close to us, so that we might observe it! John echoes this in:

Just so that there’s no doubt;
You mean they were walking blamelessly in what some call an unbearable yoke?
Even Paul kept the Torah. And no it was not a hypocritical keeping of the Torah, so that He can deceptively win the Jews. He kept the Torah because He loved His Father and therefore kept His Word [Acts 25:8, 24:14].
What you call an unbearable yoke that no one could bear…is actually an extremely twisted and unfounded and more importantly unscriptural statement. It is actually quite the opposite as we see in:

Before you go and call My Father's Holy Instructions a yoke that was unbearable for anyone to carry, please analyze and study the Scriptures. It's very dangerous when you prooftext without studying the context, and especially without proving it with the Entire Scriptures as a whole.
His Torah was the FURTHEST and continues to be the FURTHEST thing from an unbearable yoke that no one could bear.

What do you really mean when you urge people into observing the law? What exactly do you or the Bible mean when they say David kept the law? We know for a fact that David sinned at will. Does the law permit or encourage sin?

 

[fellowheir]

the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....


What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Steve

Grafted in or Baptized into one Body?
　
Romans 11:19-22 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This CANNOT be speaking of anyone in the Body of Christ for you CANNOT be CUT OFF! When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for your salvation; that He died for YOUR sins, was buried and rose again on the third day you are SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption!

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
-----------------------

Notice there’s someone that Paul is focused on when he uses "thou" (which is singular in a King James Bible) and if you look back in Romans 2 you can see that this is someone that is "called a Jew", rested in the law and made his boast of God:

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

before you might think that Paul is actually talking to a Jew, please remember that Paul is speaking to Gentiles

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.


This person in Romans 2 is someone who was bragging on his standing in the olive tree, but the natural branches had been broken off, for Israel had fallen and unless he continued in the goodness of God, he was in danger of being broken off too.

Believing the gospel that Paul preached was the only way to "continue in His goodness" and upon believing be baptized by the Holy Spirit into the one Body!


1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Grafted in or Baptized into one Body?
　
Romans 11:19-22 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This CANNOT be speaking of anyone in the Body of Christ for you CANNOT be CUT OFF! When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for your salvation; that He died for YOUR sins, was buried and rose again on the third day you are SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption!

Sorry Sis, but he WAS talking to believers.
And do not overlook the word obedience.
Romans I
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obediencehttp://www.christianforums.com/l fn-descriptionAnchor-b
to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And you can be cutoff, blotted out, and destroyed.
Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Acts 3
23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
And we should also fear because that is the beginning of wisdom, which enables us to understand.
Psalm 111:10 KJV
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever
Proverbs 9:10 KJV
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding

 

[visionary]

It is not the TEN Commandments that no one can bear.. because that burden is light.. as Yeshua said it is.. I call it light delight.

 

[Frogster]

It is not the TEN Commandments that no one can bear.. because that burden is light.. as Yeshua said it is.. I call it light delight.

we have not come to a mountain of gloom, heb 12;18, and the mosaic minstry was one of death and condemnation, 3 cor 3;7-9.

 

[visionary]

Turning down the invitation to Mount Zion?

 

[Frogster]

Turning down the invitation to Mount Zion?

forget the gloom of sinai...

 

[visionary]

forget the gloom of sinai...

Need to climb the Mount to be in His Presence and see His Glory..

 

[Frogster]

Need to climb the Mount to be in His Presence and see His Glory..

sorry, it was called gloom....fact...

 

[visionary]

sorry, it was called gloom....fact...

From where the crowd at the foot who are afraid of God's voice, yeah.. they could say that.. but then a golden calf was more their speed anyway.

 

[Frogster]

From where the crowd at the foot who are afraid of God's voice, yeah.. they could say that.. but then a golden calf was more their speed anyway.

however, the text says moses was filled with fear, too..giving credence to the definition. it says gloom, and does not mean by any certain vantage point.

it is a clear objective description.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

sorry, it was called gloom....fact...

It is law, not OT, the Greek word is " nomos."
ROMANS 3: 31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law.
Romans 7
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Now rather than fight about being under the law, wouldn't we be better off tryin' to establish it?
Let us discern the spiritual meaning of the law. Is it not love?
If you love your neighbor as yourself, you wont be bearing false witness against him, you wont be wanting his or her spouse, you wont be stealing from them.We should always be striving to do his commandments. Knowing that to do it you must always ask the Father.
Love is the fullfilling of the law.

 

[Frogster]

It is law, not OT, the Greek word is " nomos."
ROMANS 3: 31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law.
Romans 7
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Now rather than fight about being under the law, wouldn't we be better off tryin' to establish it?
Let us discern the spiritual meaning of the law. Is it not love?
If you love your neighbor as yourself, you wont be bearing false witness against him, you wont be wanting his or her spouse, you wont be stealing from them.We should always be striving to do his commandments. Knowing that to do it you must always ask the Father.
Love is the fullfilling of the law.

Law, can mean the OT...

Paul called Isaiah the "law" in 1 Cor 14, talking about tongues, and that was not in Mosaic law.


1 Cor 14:21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”

Jesus called the Psalms the law, in John 10, and 15.

Also in Gal 4:21 Paul called Mosaic law, and Genesis the law, all in one verse.

Right in Romans 3:10-18, Paul quotes alot of OT verses, then in 3:19, he says "we know whatever the law says", and that was about the previous text, and none of it was Mosaic, yet Paul called it the law too.

So, all those verse are nomos in the Greek, showing the universalness of the Greek, with nomos.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Law, can mean the OT...

Paul called Isaiah the "law" in 1 Cor 14, talking about tongues, and that was not in Mosaic law.


1 Cor 14:21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”

Jesus called the Psalms the law, in John 10, and 15.

Also in Gal 4:21 Paul called Mosaic law, and Genesis the law, all in one verse.

Right in Romans 3:10-18, Paul quotes alot of OT verses, then in 3:19, he says "we know whatever the law says", and that was about the previous text, and none of it was Mosaic, yet Paul called it the law too.

So, all those verse are nomos in the Greek, showing the universalness of the Greek, with nomos.

Once again not OT. Prophets. Through his obedience and love of the Father, Christ fullfilled the law and the prophets.

 

[Frogster]

Once again not OT. Prophets. Through his obedience and love of the Father, Christ fullfilled the law and the prophets.

welp..I showed ya that it was all nomos in the Greek, it is used broadly...
alrighty now..

 

[mannysee]

the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....


What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Steve

I've lately been coming to see that the reason why a branch can be cut off is because an individual has received the sign of covenant people inclusion, but does not actually come to a time in their lives where they have faith in Christ and have actually been converted in their hearts by God.
One expression of this being, "Not all Israel is Israel."

This thinking could go in hand with the, "If you continue..." (and similar expressions) warning-texts we read here-and-there in the NT.
Practically:= Those converted will continue and must e.g. the perseverence of the saints.

In summary, "I will be your God and you will be my people".
Just like in the OT.