grafted in...

[Frogster]

I have you beat by 18 years and so what. As a highschooler I could debate the pastor and win. He was colege educated too. Big whoop-te-do. I do not agree with the postion of the denomination I grew up in and spent 40 plus years with. So what. AllI can do is cry about it. They are worng in their theology and practice. I am still growing in knowledge. I am not following a sinner church or its theology. And I sure ain't gonna bend to your ridiculous unprovable nonsense, either.

This is a primary reason I hang out here at CF.

bugkiller

Exactly, your posts prove it hands down.

 

[Rainie]

Sorry ole friend, go reread the thread, I asked you for countless times, why Peter made an historical statement, the the law was a yoke the fathers, nor those present at the meeting could not bear. Then you left for awhile. I understand, we have other things in life. But really, that is how we left off, I am suprised you do not remember, no big deal though, just sayin..

Not to mention Paul called it bondage in his past, and called it bondage for the Galatians in their present mode. That covers the whole history. NO?

Yes, I remember our former conversation that we reviewed over those scriptures.

Basically, you have explained that certain teachings of Paul and Peter directly contradict God's own words (aka Jesus) and that this is ok or explainable some how. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Whereas, I have made my position clear that Peter and Paul CAN NOT and DID NOT contradict God (aka Jesus).

I will reword the question for you:
Can you reconcile your understanding that Paul and Peter taught law abolishment, as believers and followers of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ Himself, their leader, Savior, teacher and Lord etc. NEVER, EVER taught law abolishment nor lived opposed to the law in anyway, as He is WITHOUT SIN (violation of the Law)?

In Him-Rain

 

[Rainie]

I did so before your summer vacation. If you like, I can refresh your memory. And I don't even need Paul to do so.

bugkiller

Sure!

 

[Rainie]

I simply repeated what follows from scripture...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus fulfilled the law , did not destroy it ...

Pretty straight forward!

I love how Messiah continues with...
Matthew 5:19 (New King James Version)

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What are the "least of these commandments" PLURAL that we are to teach others?

 

[Rainie]

There was no violation on His part. If Jesus violated the any of the law He could not be the Messiah or our Saviour. He would have not been a spotless lamb without imperfection (includes sin). Since there was no sin Jesus met all the requirements of the law

AMEN!

This is great!

Since Jesus NEVER broke God's Law then how is it that He "apparently" abolished it?

According to God's Law any prophet, dreamer, relative etc. who arises and causes God's people to abandon GOD'S LAW in favor of a NEW GOD or NEW LAWS is by definition a false prophet deserving of death.

Deuteronomy 13 (New King James Version)


Deuteronomy 13

1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear someone in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell in, saying, 13 ‘Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods”’—which you have not known— 14 then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword. 16 And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again. 17 So none of the accursed things shall remain in your hand, that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of His anger and show you mercy, have compassion on you and multiply you, just as He swore to your fathers, 18 because you have listened to the voice of the LORD your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you today, to do what is right in the eyes of the LORD your God.


Did you read that?
This is the test and recognition of a FALSE PROPHET!

Jesus NEVER violated Deut 13...

Jesus NEVER enticed anyone away from God or His commandments.

Jesus NEVER institued NEW HOLY DAYS, A NEW SABBATH, ABOLISHMENT OF THE DIETARY LAWS, ABOLISHMENT OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH, JESUS NEVER SAID "LET'S GO SERVE ANOTHER GOD" ETC.

Right?

In Him-Rain

 

[Rainie]

I don't think there is any contention here about the weakness of the flesh and the strength of the spirit... but the spirit cannot sin,

So true! We are called to live by the Spirit and if we are truly doing that then sin (violation of God's Law) will become less and less as we start to become transformed into HIS image!!!!

 

[Rainie]

Your are being very persumptuous through your own mistake... I am neither a Jew nor trying to convince anyone of anything, but simply discussing the scripture ... I will ask you to do the same please and stop irrelevant personal comments which are simply not allowed here and truly are inane presumption and unedifying... please waste no more time with them

Well stated.

 

[Rainie]

prooftexting is ok?

Frogster, it's a good thing when one uses the whole of scripture to make one's point. Is it not?

 

[Rainie]

As I said, it would be best to read the scripture as a whole...

 

[Frogster]

Yes, I remember our former conversation that we reviewed over those scriptures.

Basically, you have explained that certain teachings of Paul and Peter directly contradict God's own words (aka Jesus) and that this is ok or explainable some how. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Whereas, I have made my position clear that Peter and Paul CAN NOT and DID NOT contradict God (aka Jesus).

I will reword the question for you:
Can you reconcile your understanding that Paul and Peter taught law abolishment, as believers and followers of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ Himself, their leader, Savior, teacher and Lord etc. NEVER, EVER taught law abolishment nor lived opposed to the law in anyway, as He is WITHOUT SIN (violation of the Law)?

In Him-Rain

Rainie, ole chum, can u look me in the eye (screen) , and tell me that you don't think out last contention, was the historical precedent here? You remember.

10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, I remember our former conversation that we reviewed over those scriptures.

Basically, you have explained that certain teachings of Paul and Peter directly contradict God's own words (aka Jesus) and that this is ok or explainable some how. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Whereas, I have made my position clear that Peter and Paul CAN NOT and DID NOT contradict God (aka Jesus).

I will reword the question for you:
Can you reconcile your understanding that Paul and Peter taught law abolishment, as believers and followers of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ Himself, their leader, Savior, teacher and Lord etc. NEVER, EVER taught law abolishment nor lived opposed to the law in anyway, as He is WITHOUT SIN (violation of the Law)?

In Him-Rain

No need to. Paul and Peter were teaching under the new covenant (NC). Jesus was under the law until the cross and resurrection. And Jesus said we are in the NC in Mat 26:28 which is not like the OC according to Jer 31:31-34. Jeremiah is not Paul.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sure!

What covenant (testament) Is Jesus talking about in Mat 26:28? If you remember I addressed the Mat 5:17 verse with LK 24:44. It says: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.

Now Hebrews 7:12 says: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. It does not matter who wrote Hebrews the Levitical priesthood and the temple are no more. This also proves that a jot or tittle from the law has passed. James 2:10 (not Paul) states the law is a single undivisible unit. Paul likes the idea too so one should check in with Gal3:10; 5:3.

Is that enough to get us started?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Pretty straight forward!

I love how Messiah continues with...
Matthew 5:19 (New King James Version)

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What are the "least of these commandments" PLURAL that we are to teach others?

Don't suppose you have any idea do you?

bugkiller

 

[from scratch]

Don't suppose you have any idea do you?

bugkiller

Can I chime in with I want to know what she suggests, too.

 

[from scratch]

AMEN!

This is great!

Since Jesus NEVER broke God's Law then how is it that He "apparently" abolished it?

According to God's Law any prophet, dreamer, relative etc. who arises and causes God's people to abandon GOD'S LAW in favor of a NEW GOD or NEW LAWS is by definition a false prophet deserving of death.

Deuteronomy 13 (New King James Version)


Deuteronomy 13

1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear someone in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell in, saying, 13 ‘Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods”’—which you have not known— 14 then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword. 16 And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again. 17 So none of the accursed things shall remain in your hand, that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of His anger and show you mercy, have compassion on you and multiply you, just as He swore to your fathers, 18 because you have listened to the voice of the LORD your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you today, to do what is right in the eyes of the LORD your God.


Did you read that?
This is the test and recognition of a FALSE PROPHET!

Jesus NEVER violated Deut 13...

Jesus NEVER enticed anyone away from God or His commandments.

Jesus NEVER institued NEW HOLY DAYS, A NEW SABBATH, ABOLISHMENT OF THE DIETARY LAWS, ABOLISHMENT OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH, JESUS NEVER SAID "LET'S GO SERVE ANOTHER GOD" ETC.

Right?

In Him-Rain

Yeppers I did and can I ask some questions?

• Who is being talked to here?
• What prophet are we going to put to death?
• What other gods are Christians serving, we do not keep the law?
• Who is brought out of the land of Egypt?
• What are the commandments that Christians are to keep? (hint I John 3:23).

 

[bugkiller]

So true! We are called to live by the Spirit and if we are truly doing that then sin (violation of God's Law) will become less and less as we start to become transformed into HIS image!!!!

I am sorry but you confuse me here. I thought you claim we are obligated to obey the law (OC).

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Frogster, it's a good thing when one uses the whole of scripture to make one's point. Is it not?

Great idea. You should comply. Especially since it is your idea.

bugkiller

 

[Source Scripture]

Pretty straight forward!

I love how Messiah continues with...
Matthew 5:19 (New King James Version)

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What are the "least of these commandments" PLURAL that we are to teach others?

#1 When Jesus spoke that to a Jewish audience, had he been to the cross yet?

#2 Also, where do the Gentiles fit in, according to that verse?

 

[Source Scripture]

What covenant (testament) Is Jesus talking about in Mat 26:28? If you remember I addressed the Mat 5:17 verse with LK 24:44. It says: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me

Now Hebrews 7:12 says: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. It does not matter who wrote Hebrews the Levitical priesthood and the temple are no more. This also proves that a jot or tittle from the law has passed. James 2:10 (not Paul) states the law is a single undivisible unit. Paul likes the idea too so one should check in with Gal3:10; 5:3.

Is that enough to get us started?

Excellent point. The law was based off the priesthood. God clearly demonstrated the passing of the old covenant, by letting the temple be destroyed. Idols die hard.

 

[Source Scripture]

rather, you are misunderstanding the point, made more explicitly perhaps by James :-

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
...
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
...
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The thing is that if one has faith in Jesus then one obeys him as lord and loves everyone to show one's love of the God of love...

if one does not DO love, but is unloving and sins, then one's claim to faith in Jesus is false, because one is disobeying him... Jesus is not the lord of sinners, Satan is :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

thus it is not just a matter of SAYING one believes in Jesus, it is a matter of PROVING one believes Jesus by obeying him and not being unloving to folks any more, not sinning against folks any more...

True faith then GENERATES works which show it is true faith, not faith in what sinners preach worldwide for Satan [Rev 13:3-4] ... world religion in teh name of peace is prophesied by Jesus for this world, but although it is final unity of faith [bar a few saints left alive by then] , it is NOT faith in Jesus , but in the one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in Greek, Vicarius Filii Dei in Latin]

Jesus said it MUST happen before his return, so why have faith in sinners in preference to believing the words of all the saints and prophets of God who gave us the scriptures ?

I mean I know why from scripture - as scripture explains that Satan can only be killed justly by coming to have this world worship him for his power gained by his lying ways [which men now emulate who control our world already] , confessing his blasphemy [2Thess 2:4] , death as a man [Ezek 28,Isaih 14] , just as Logos became the man Jesus and died ... and the few saints of this world need their love perfected in trial [mostly to death] of their love ... but I think you too need to read about this in your own bible before you come to believe it and reject the teachings of sinners in apostate religion which Jesus said MUST become apostate before his return else Satan is not taken out of the way of readying the kingdom for the resurrection of the masses in the new earth...

Might I suggest a change in your posting style. One that is clear and concise. Usually posts like this are compensatory in nature, style over substance. Please forgive me, no offense intended, but I have been trying to follow the conversation. God bless you.