grafted in...

[Frogster]

Redemption is by translation to spirit ... Jesus did need to be translated to spirit eventually... he never died a second death after resurrection to the [mortal] flesh...

I have no idea why you think one has to break the law in order to keep it ... that Jesus kept the law does not in any way indicate that he must have broken it at any time...

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

That is a real misuse of 2:13. Paul was just showing the hypocrisy of the Jews there. They heard the law every Sab, but did not keep it, as you see when reading down in 2. Why would he totally contradict the whole argument, that none are justified by law, the way it culminated at 3:20?

I really am bemused that folks who remain sinners, breaking Jesus' and God's law of love , hear about Jesus and think they do not have to do the law, but can remain sinners and Jesus will just 'rapture' them away from the wages of their continuing sin...
Jesus indeed takes away the sin of the world, but he never said he excuses it unless one stops sinning and becomes a saint... all the 144,000 are saints, not sinners , those who keep God's law of love... the old covenant was not unloving , just not very effective in numbers of folks who kept it [just as God said would be the case]

And sure God rejected Israel because they broke the covenant, but the new covenant states it is with those whose fathers broke the old one, a replacement covenant for the House fo Israel and the House of Judah... so there is nothing unloving about the old covenant , and indeed Jesus repeats and verifies all the ten commandments and keeps holy sabbaths because they are memorials to the future of God's plan of salvation of all creation ... passover he fulfils as the sacrificed Lamb of God, but still keeps it as his annual memorial with any that are worthy of him [the saints, not sinners]

Truly the law of God hasn't changed, but God does require a few of the children of Israel to be the priests and kings who minister to billions in the kingdom , so He shows that love has the power to overwhelm the desire to sin [be unloving] with His unconditional covenant with the few saints of this world , simply fulgfilling His promise that the Messiah [Christ, anointed king] will unite the children of Israel , descendants of the House of Judah and the lost House of Israel into a nation of priests :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

The scripture is not wisely re-interpretted ... the meaning of the Messiah is clear in the OT and NT, and the new covenant is simply God restating that His prophecy will come true depite that Israel was rejected , and now they are forgiven for His sake [not theirs] , so God's prophecy will come true despite Israel [and despite anti-Semitic twisting of scripture and despite apostasy of Judaism... even despite Satan getting the whole world apart from the few saints to worship him in eventually united mass religion , the corruption of which is already more than apparent in today's mass religions , just compare them to scripture and note their division -Rev 13:3-10]

If one listens to sinners one will never see this... if one studies the words of the saints and prophets and Jesus and ignores religion, then it is obvious...

so perhaps start by reading the new covannat, and then looking at who the House fo Israel were, why they disappeared, why they never accepted Judaism, never became Jews, and yet God forgives them unconditionally in their new covanant with Him FOR HIS SAKE ... because of His promise that cannot be broken ...

then you will see why FEW find the narrow way in this life and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] , and yet although Jesus only takes the few , countless MANY who were destroyed with this earth's destruction are resurrected to the new earth and saved later [Rev 7:9-10] , all are resurrected from hell [hades] [Revelation 20:13] and know nothing of death [Ecclesiastes 9:5] but some are trialled until the 'age of the ages' [end of time, not 'ever and ever' , for there is a beginning and an end] for not accepting God's word about love... some have to find out for themselves the hard way that unlovingness, sin, is an unworkable way to live .. some do not find that until God has removed all the easy prey that sinners live off in this world... God's mercy though extends for all time as He states, it does not end in this life as sinners [paradoxically] teach in religion ...condemning themselves not to be taken by Jesus by their own beliefs :-

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy,
that hath shewed no mercy;
and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Sinners will never believe it yet, but judgment is only God's way of deciding who is ready, as tried and tested saints, for translation, and who needs further persuasion ... bizarrely most sinneres think folks are pre-judged in this earth, even before God says he will judge the many [at judgement day, not now] ... more bizarrely religious sinners think others who may sin even less than them , will be somehow tormented beyond the end of time for sin, whereas their divided religion contrary to scripture will save them without them even stopping sinning in life... something scripture says explicitly many times is not going to happen , sin is unloving, God requires one to learn to love in life and have one's love of all tried in life , that is the trial of faith , not the test sinners make of whether one can believe their diverse lies about God and love...

 

[stranger]

That is a real misuse of 2:13. Paul was just showing the hypocrisy of the Jews there. They heard the law every Sab, but did not keep it, as you see when reading down in 2. Why would he totally contradict the whole argument, that none are justified by law, the way it culminated at 3:20?

rather, you are misunderstanding the point, made more explicitly perhaps by James :-

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
...
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
...
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The thing is that if one has faith in Jesus then one obeys him as lord and loves everyone to show one's love of the God of love...

if one does not DO love, but is unloving and sins, then one's claim to faith in Jesus is false, because one is disobeying him... Jesus is not the lord of sinners, Satan is :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

thus it is not just a matter of SAYING one believes in Jesus, it is a matter of PROVING one believes Jesus by obeying him and not being unloving to folks any more, not sinning against folks any more...

True faith then GENERATES works which show it is true faith, not faith in what sinners preach worldwide for Satan [Rev 13:3-4] ... world religion in teh name of peace is prophesied by Jesus for this world, but although it is final unity of faith [bar a few saints left alive by then] , it is NOT faith in Jesus , but in the one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in Greek, Vicarius Filii Dei in Latin]

Jesus said it MUST happen before his return, so why have faith in sinners in preference to believing the words of all the saints and prophets of God who gave us the scriptures ?

I mean I know why from scripture - as scripture explains that Satan can only be killed justly by coming to have this world worship him for his power gained by his lying ways [which men now emulate who control our world already] , confessing his blasphemy [2Thess 2:4] , death as a man [Ezek 28,Isaih 14] , just as Logos became the man Jesus and died ... and the few saints of this world need their love perfected in trial [mostly to death] of their love ... but I think you too need to read about this in your own bible before you come to believe it and reject the teachings of sinners in apostate religion which Jesus said MUST become apostate before his return else Satan is not taken out of the way of readying the kingdom for the resurrection of the masses in the new earth...

 

[Frogster]

rather, you are misunderstanding the point, made more explicitly perhaps by James :-

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
...
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
...
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The thing is that if one has faith in Jesus then one obeys him as lord and loves everyone to show one's love of the God of love...

if one does not DO love, but is unloving and sins, then one's claim to faith in Jesus is false, because one is disobeying him... Jesus is not the lord of sinners, Satan is :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

thus it is not just a matter of SAYING one believes in Jesus, it is a matter of PROVING one believes Jesus by obeying him and not being unloving to folks any more, not sinning against folks any more...

True faith then GENERATES works which show it is true faith, not faith in what sinners preach worldwide for Satan [Rev 13:3-4] ... world religion in teh name of peace is prophesied by Jesus for this world, but although it is final unity of faith [bar a few saints left alive by then] , it is NOT faith in Jesus , but in the one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in Greek, Vicarius Filii Dei in Latin]

Jesus said it MUST happen before his return, so why have faith in sinners in preference to believing the words of all the saints and prophets of God who gave us the scriptures ?

I mean I know why from scripture - as scripture explains that Satan can only be killed justly by coming to have this world worship him for his power gained by his lying ways [which men now emulate who control our world already] , confessing his blasphemy [2Thess 2:4] , death as a man [Ezek 28,Isaih 14] , just as Logos became the man Jesus and died ... and the few saints of this world need their love perfected in trial [mostly to death] of their love ... but I think you too need to read about this in your own bible before you come to believe it and reject the teachings of sinners in apostate religion which Jesus said MUST become apostate before his return else Satan is not taken out of the way of readying the kingdom for the resurrection of the masses in the new earth...

Do you admit I was correct about your incorrect usage?

 

[stranger]

rather it seems , you are misunderstanding the point, made more explicitly perhaps by James

 

[bugkiller]

Redemption is by translation to spirit ... Jesus did need to be translated to spirit eventually... he never died a second death after resurrection to the [mortal] flesh...

Where oh where do you get this idea? Those who are born again don't die a second death either - John 5:24 I assure you, those who listen to My message and believe in God who sent Me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. (NLT) Or my standard KJV says Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Thus the Christian never dies the second and passes the judgement to boot.

I have no idea why you think one has to break the law in order to keep it ... that Jesus kept the law does not in any way indicate that he must have broken it at any time...

I said what? Where is this? I don't advocate breaking the law. The law (OC) has no jusrisdiction having been superceded as Jesus testified in Mat 26:28. Which covenant is in effect? I can not break a law that is not in force. When one becomes a Christian the law has no value I Tim 1:9, 10. The law is not made for the righteous. A Christian is righteous by declaration Rom 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Notice it says the doers of the law. This does not include those who have sinned. Rom 3:23 says that all have sinned. Therefore no one will ever be justified, because all have sinned. The only exception to this is Jesus Who is God.

I really am bemused that folks who remain sinners, breaking Jesus' and God's law of love , hear about Jesus and think they do not have to do the law, but can remain sinners and Jesus will just 'rapture' them away from the wages of their continuing sin...
Jesus indeed takes away the sin of the world, but he never said he excuses it unless one stops sinning and becomes a saint... all the 144,000 are saints, not sinners , those who keep God's law of love... the old covenant was not unloving , just not very effective in numbers of folks who kept it [just as God said would be the case]

It is clear that you have no concept or understanding about the NC. You sound like an unbelieving Jew to me trying to pull off a deception. A great example of what Jer 31:31-34 means is found in John 8:1-11.

And sure God rejected Israel because they broke the covenant, but the new covenant states it is with those whose fathers broke the old one, a replacement covenant for the House fo Israel and the House of Judah... so there is nothing unloving about the old covenant , and indeed Jesus repeats and verifies all the ten commandments and keeps holy sabbaths because they are memorials to the future of God's plan of salvation of all creation ... passover he fulfils as the sacrificed Lamb of God, but still keeps it as his annual memorial with any that are worthy of him [the saints, not sinners]

I pointed out Acts 15 and Peter's testimony to you before. Acts is full of evidence that the NC is to more than Israel. Acts 15 makes it very clear that the Christian is not obligated to the OC law. Gal 4:30 says we are to throw the law out. Gal 3:19 makes it clear that the law is for a limited time having a begining and an ending.

Truly the law of God hasn't changed, but God does require a few of the children of Israel to be the priests and kings who minister to billions in the kingdom , so He shows that love has the power to overwhelm the desire to sin [be unloving] with His unconditional covenant with the few saints of this world , simply fulgfilling His promise that the Messiah [Christ, anointed king] will unite the children of Israel , descendants of the House of Judah and the lost House of Israel into a nation of priests :-
:-

You haven't read or accepted Hebrews 7:12 and James 2:10, Gal 3:10; 5:3.

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

The reason you use these two quotes makes it very clear to me that you are a Jew (or at best an MJ) not accepting the NC. Gal 5:4 states that you can have both the OC and the NC as one negates the other. So if you don't forsake the law of Moses which no longer has any jusridiction you can not have eternal life. The young man of Mat 19 found out that the keeping of the law could not secure eternal life.

The scripture is not wisely re-interpretted ... the meaning of the Messiah is clear in the OT and NT, and the new covenant is simply God restating that His prophecy will come true depite that Israel was rejected , and now they are forgiven for His sake [not theirs] , so God's prophecy will come true despite Israel [and despite anti-Semitic twisting of scripture and despite apostasy of Judaism... even despite Satan getting the whole world apart from the few saints to worship him in eventually united mass religion , the corruption of which is already more than apparent in today's mass religions , just compare them to scripture and note their division -Rev 13:3-10]

Negatory - you pass right over the very plain words of Jer 31:31, 32. The word is chadash pronounced khä·däsh'. It specifically means new as in not before. The coresponding quote in Hebrews uses the word kainos which can not be confused like chadash. There is another pronounciation of chadash which is khä·dash' and means renew as the coresponding word in the NT neos does.

If one listens to sinners one will never see this... if one studies the words of the saints and prophets and Jesus and ignores religion, then it is obvious...

You are right. Do I qualify as my study has proved I don't listen to sinners?

so perhaps start by reading the new covannat, and then looking at who the House fo Israel were, why they disappeared, why they never accepted Judaism, never became Jews, and yet God forgives them unconditionally in their new covanant with Him FOR HIS SAKE ... because of His promise that cannot be broken ...

You have so accused me of not reading the NC before. You have no foundation for such a remark.And it violates the rules here at CF.

then you will see why FEW find the narrow way in this life and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] , and yet although Jesus only takes the few , countless MANY who were destroyed with this earth's destruction are resurrected to the new earth and saved later [Rev 7:9-10] , all are resurrected from hell [hades] [Revelation 20:13] and know nothing of death [Ecclesiastes 9:5] but some are trialled until the 'age of the ages' [end of time, not 'ever and ever' , for there is a beginning and an end] for not accepting God's word about love... some have to find out for themselves the hard way that unlovingness, sin, is an unworkable way to live .. some do not find that until God has removed all the easy prey that sinners live off in this world... God's mercy though extends for all time as He states, it does not end in this life as sinners [paradoxically] teach in religion ...condemning themselves not to be taken by Jesus by their own beliefs :-

The Christian is not raised from hell as you contend and I demonstrated with John 5:24 above.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy,
that hath shewed no mercy;
and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Sinners will never believe it yet, but judgment is only God's way of deciding who is ready, as tried and tested saints, for translation, and who needs further persuasion ... bizarrely most sinneres think folks are pre-judged in this earth, even before God says he will judge the many [at judgement day, not now] ... more bizarrely religious sinners think others who may sin even less than them , will be somehow tormented beyond the end of time for sin, whereas their divided religion contrary to scripture will save them without them even stopping sinning in life... something scripture says explicitly many times is not going to happen , sin is unloving, God requires one to learn to love in life and have one's love of all tried in life , that is the trial of faith , not the test sinners make of whether one can believe their diverse lies about God and love...

I point you again to Rom 7:15-25 concerning this very subject.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

rather it seems , you are misunderstanding the point, made more explicitly perhaps by James

wait a minute, lets have thread order here. Did you use it in proper context?


Then we can go on to James.

 

[bugkiller]

rather it seems , you are misunderstanding the point, made more explicitly perhaps by James

And just what point is this that Frogster misunderstands as you did not say? James does not intend to mean that one must follow the law of Moses. That is what was hashed out in Acts 15 with James agreeing with the conclusion thereof.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

rather, you are misunderstanding the point, made more explicitly perhaps by James :-

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
...
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
...
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The thing is that if one has faith in Jesus then one obeys him as lord and loves everyone to show one's love of the God of love...

if one does not DO love, but is unloving and sins, then one's claim to faith in Jesus is false, because one is disobeying him... Jesus is not the lord of sinners, Satan is :-

So do you include yourself in this statement?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Are you not speaking of yourself here in your intended misapplication of scripture?

thus it is not just a matter of SAYING one believes in Jesus, it is a matter of PROVING one believes Jesus by obeying him and not being unloving to folks any more, not sinning against folks any more...

True faith then GENERATES works which show it is true faith, not faith in what sinners preach worldwide for Satan [Rev 13:3-4] ... world religion in teh name of peace is prophesied by Jesus for this world, but although it is final unity of faith [bar a few saints left alive by then] , it is NOT faith in Jesus , but in the one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in Greek, Vicarius Filii Dei in Latin]

What you are really saying is that anyone who believes obligates themselves to the law of Moses (Torah). This is simply not so as Jer 31:31-34 indicates and Jesus (God) so testifies in Mat 26:28. Unless of course Jesus is talking about some other NC spoken of in the prophets. So are there two NCs? I only read about one NC.

Jesus said it MUST happen before his return, so why have faith in sinners in preference to believing the words of all the saints and prophets of God who gave us the scriptures ?

To me this is evidence that you do not accept Jesus and His stint on the cross as Messiah/Saviour/Redeemer.

I mean I know why from scripture - as scripture explains that Satan can only be killed justly by coming to have this world worship him for his power gained by his lying ways [which men now emulate who control our world already] , confessing his blasphemy [2Thess 2:4] , death as a man [Ezek 28,Isaih 14] , just as Logos became the man Jesus and died ... and the few saints of this world need their love perfected in trial [mostly to death] of their love ... but I think you too need to read about this in your own bible before you come to believe it and reject the teachings of sinners in apostate religion which Jesus said MUST become apostate before his return else Satan is not taken out of the way of readying the kingdom for the resurrection of the masses in the new earth...

So unless you claim to be one of the 144,000 you have no hope either. I think your purpose is to take that hope away from the weak.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

And just what point is this that Frogster misunderstands as you did not say? James does not intend to mean that one must follow the law of Moses. That is what was hashed out in Acts 15 with James agreeing with the conclusion thereof.

bugkiller

 

[stranger]

So do you include yourself in this statement? Are you not speaking of yourself here in your intended misapplication of scripture?What you are really saying is that anyone who believes obligates themselves to the law of Moses (Torah). This is simply not so as Jer 31:31-34 indicates and Jesus (God) so testifies in Mat 26:28. Unless of course Jesus is talking about some other NC spoken of in the prophets. So are there two NCs? I only read about one NC.To me this is evidence that you do not accept Jesus and His stint on the cross as Messiah/Saviour/Redeemer.So unless you claim to be one of the 144,000 you have no hope either. I think your purpose is to take that hope away from the weak.

bugkiller

Who knows yet who are the 144.000 ?

I only pointed out what scripture said, I have no concern as to who is saved first, who second, who third ...

 

[stranger]

Where oh where do you get this idea? Those who are born again don't die a second death either - John 5:24 I assure you, those who listen to My message and believe in God who sent Me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. (NLT) Or my standard KJV says Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Thus the Christian never dies the second and passes the judgement to boot.I said what? Where is this? I don't advocate breaking the law. The law (OC) has no jusrisdiction having been superceded as Jesus testified in Mat 26:28. Which covenant is in effect? I can not break a law that is not in force. When one becomes a Christian the law has no value I Tim 1:9, 10. The law is not made for the righteous. A Christian is righteous by declaration Rom 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Notice it says the doers of the law. This does not include those who have sinned. Rom 3:23 says that all have sinned. Therefore no one will ever be justified, because all have sinned. The only exception to this is Jesus Who is God.It is clear that you have no concept or understanding about the NC. You sound like an unbelieving Jew to me trying to pull off a deception. A great example of what Jer 31:31-34 means is found in John 8:1-11.I pointed out Acts 15 and Peter's testimony to you before. Acts is full of evidence that the NC is to more than Israel. Acts 15 makes it very clear that the Christian is not obligated to the OC law. Gal 4:30 says we are to throw the law out. Gal 3:19 makes it clear that the law is for a limited time having a begining and an ending. You haven't read or accepted Hebrews 7:12 and James 2:10, Gal 3:10; 5:3. The reason you use these two quotes makes it very clear to me that you are a Jew (or at best an MJ) not accepting the NC. Gal 5:4 states that you can have both the OC and the NC as one negates the other. So if you don't forsake the law of Moses which no longer has any jusridiction you can not have eternal life. The young man of Mat 19 found out that the keeping of the law could not secure eternal life.Negatory - you pass right over the very plain words of Jer 31:31, 32. The word is chadash pronounced khä·däsh'. It specifically means new as in not before. The coresponding quote in Hebrews uses the word kainos which can not be confused like chadash. There is another pronounciation of chadash which is khä·dash' and means renew as the coresponding word in the NT neos does.You are right. Do I qualify as my study has proved I don't listen to sinners? You have so accused me of not reading the NC before. You have no foundation for such a remark.And it violates the rules here at CF.The Christian is not raised from hell as you contend and I demonstrated with John 5:24 above.
I point you again to Rom 7:15-25 concerning this very subject.

bugkiller

I don't think there is any contention here about the weakness of the flesh and the strength of the spirit ...

but the spirit cannot sin, only the flesh can, and it is the sin of the flesh that brings the wages of sin, death ... only death, no more [apart from that sinners suffer 'fire' of their consciences ,thanks to Adam, none sin innocently, all know that they sin against God ,following Satan in preference to God]

 

[bugkiller]

Who knows yet who are the 144.000 ?

I only pointed out what scripture said, I have no concern as to who is saved first, who second, who third ...

How about addressing the rest of my statements in the post you quoted.

bugkiller

 

[stranger]

wait a minute, lets have thread order here. Did you use it in proper context?


Then we can go on to James.

As I said, James resolves the question... it makes no difference then that we disagree about the other scripture

 

[bugkiller]

I don't think there is any contention here about the weakness of the flesh and the strength of the spirit ...

but the spirit cannot sin, only the flesh can, and it is the sin of the flesh that brings the wages of sin, death ... only death, no more [apart from that sinners suffer 'fire' of their consciences ,thanks to Adam, none sin innocently, all know that they sin against God ,following Satan in preference to God]

So who or rather substance is the is the sinne rmade of? The soul that sinneth it shall die (be severed from God -the second death). The flesh is not redeemed. It has recieved its unrevokable sentence. It will not be raised up. We will be likd Jesus and He passed through locked doors or walls when He appeared to the disciples in the room where they were hiding. And a ghost can not eat solid food.

bugkiller

 

[stranger]

Where oh where do you get this idea? Those who are born again don't die a second death either - John 5:24 I assure you, those who listen to My message and believe in God who sent Me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life. (NLT) Or my standard KJV says Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those 'born again' of baptism of the spirit all stop sinning, become saints , obey Jesus, stop obeying Satan.

Thus the Christian never dies the second and passes the judgement to boot.I said what? Where is this? I don't advocate breaking the law. The law (OC) has no jusrisdiction having been superceded as Jesus testified in Mat 26:28. Which covenant is in effect? I can not break a law that is not in force. When one becomes a Christian the law has no value I Tim 1:9, 10. The law is not made for the righteous. A Christian is righteous by declaration Rom 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Christians are those who depart from iniquity in obedience to Jesus' command to love, saints .not sinners ... here is God's definition of Christians :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I don't see why you cannot see it says they depart from sinning, become loving , obey Jesus as lord, not Satan

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Notice it says the doers of the law. This does not include those who have sinned. Rom 3:23 says that all have sinned. Therefore no one will ever be justified, because all have sinned.

At last I see your mistake... all HAVE sinned [excepting Jesus] , but the saints STOP sinning , sinners continue to sin

Read Ezek 18:19-21 ... past sin is forgotten when one stops sinning, becomes righteous to God's law of love ...
sin again and one's righteousness counts for nothing until one stops ... thus there is baptism of fire, trial to perfect love, to make sure one cannot be tempted by any means to sin again, not even to save one's life ...

You sound like an unbelieving Jew to me trying to pull off a deception.

Your are being very persumptuous through your own mistake... I am neither a Jew nor trying to convince anyone of anything, but simply discussing the scripture ... I will ask you to do the same please and stop irrelevant personal comments which are simply not allowed here and truly are inane presumption and unedifying... please waste no more time with them

. So if you don't forsake the law of Moses which no longer has any jusridiction you can not have eternal life.

The law of God is to love everyone , thus showing one's love of the God of love ... that means stopping sinning, because sin hurts people, it is not loving to sin against folks ... so I'm afraid you are very confused , and making wild untrue assumptions about others won't help you out of your confusion ... the NC states it is with those whose fathers broke the OC , so why not read it ...

the OC was not unloving , and thus is not incompatible with the NC, it's just that the NC is unconditional upon the few God requires as priest-kings of the kingdom because almost all Israel failed to keep the OC , but God has said they will be His nation of priests [Exodus 19:6, 1Peter 2:9-10 , etc]

The mass of the gentiles are saved [Rev 7:9-10] ,but we know from Matt 7:13 that they are destroyed first when the few find the way of love [Matt 7:14] ,saved at Jesus' return for they BECOME righteous despite being sinners before, and have their works of love tried in baptism of fire, proving [as James highlights] that their faith is not vain, but they are doers of love, not just folks who go around saying they believe in Jesus whilst not doing what he says ... again sin is NOT love , sin is disobedience and a lord is one who is obeyed... sinners ALL disobey Jesus' command to love ... matters not what they say, what they do shows who they truly believe and follow

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

The young man of Mat 19 found out that the keeping of the law could not secure eternal life.

Jesus simply pointed out that his love of his riches was being unloving to the poor with whom he needed to share ... his response showed Jesus was right , he was not ready to love everyone... love of money was displacing love of God...

Negatory - you pass right over the very plain words of Jer 31:31, 32. The word is chadash pronounced khä·däsh'. It specifically means new as in not before.

I see no problem with that, there was an old covenant made explicit , to prove to Israel that almost all of them could not keep a covenant in words even to save ther own souls... so God announced a new covenant for His sake , which is unconditional, simply takes the remnant children of Israel as His people , forgives them without them meriting it [grace] ... why not read what it actually says ... those whose fathers broke the OC are now forgiven and taken as God's people under the NC

Clearly a NEW covenant although one could work out that it would be necessary for God said Israel will not keep the OC and the NC is thus required for God's promises to Israel to be kept, and prophecy of God to be fulfilled...

The Christian is not raised from hell as you contend and I demonstrated with John 5:24 above.
I point you again to Rom 7:15-25 concerning this very subject.

Jesus was raised from hell :-
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,...

it is no different for anyone who dies , hell is simply the 'unseen' state of the dead , awaiting resurrection, and all sinners are raised from the dead according to Jesus' own revelation :-

Revelation 20:13 ...death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Those who are no longer sinners , but become saints by following Christ after spirit baptism seals them to that predestianted fate under the NC [Rev 7:3-8] , chosen, elect, of God because of His promise to Jacob are resurrected from hell at Jesus return if they died in Christ and immediately translated to spirit ...

truly no-one knows anything in death , so 'hell' [hades] is a non-event for anyone :-

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is
forgotten.

Only the living can suffer ... the spirit is of God and is not subject to ending, death, suffering as it is not physical, not bound in time [but creator of time and space and matter , much like perhaps a virtual reality is created by a computer programmer , a completely separate reality under total control from 'beyond' it]

It is inevitable, but delusional, that sinners invent stories about the spirit :-

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

but again we know the many are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] although they were destroyed in this earth's end [Matt 7:13] ... obviously it is their spirit alone that can be used to resurrect all from death and 'hell'

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

... proving what you pointed out that Paul said, that the reality of a man is not the flesh, but the spirit ...

the spirit of saints is free of death [so no second death possible as they are translated to spirit , not subject to death any longer] but the spirit of those who die sinners [whether religious or not] is returned to life after death [not left in hell] so that it can try again to learn to love , not be unloving by sinning ... else a second death for sin in the new earth, but after that death is denied :-

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

So it is an oxymoron to speak of 'spiritual death', the scripture never suggests such a thing is possible and indeed the spirit is of God and God cannot die , cannot end...
all are resurrected who die the second death , and death itself ends in the lake of fire, there is no third death for any man ... note also there is no more 'hell' either, so there is nowhere for the mistranslation 'eternal torment' to occur , hell ends when death ends:-

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

the lake of fire is then simply the last baptism of fire for mankind , and as we know only teh most evil fo men, including Satan and his cohorts are left to suffer trying to live together by then... as scripture says, they are caught in their own devices , make each other miserable ecause they have no easy prey any longer, but prey equally on each other ... God has shown them evil does not pay unless it is at the expense of others ...

So all will sue for God's enduring mercy , the torment of teh wicked lasts until the 'ages of the ages' as scripture literally says , not for infinity of time as there simply is no infinity of time... as scripture states there is a beginning and an end [of physicality, the spirit cannot end and has no beginning]

A simply translation error has spawned a whole false religion which Jesus says is worship of Satan as God [Rev 13:3-4] and only the few [Matt 7:14] saints [Rev 7:3-8, Jude 1:14] saints will not worship the one in place of Christ ...'antichristos' in Greek
Matters not as the many are saved later [Rev 7:9-10] by works ,not grace [Rev 20:13] at judgement day and even the evil turn to righteousness because of the lake of fire proving at last that evil doesn't pay as it seemed to many to do so in this world ... sop they stayed sinners to death and invented a religion that apparently allowed them to continue to sin and yet be saved , but they could not fool God, only themselves in the strong delusion that served God by allowing the confession of Satan [2Thess 2:4] so his death is just , the perfecton of the love of the firstfruit few saints, and the delay of salvation of the many until the kingdom is made ready for the later salvation of billions [Rev 7:9-10]

So there you have the scriptural version of God's truth, and you will get n argument then that almsot all folks will not accept it , but one can also see that almost all folks remain sinners till detah and do not know all truth of God before death [john 16:13], so again religion is obviously false, te many are not baptised of the spirit in this life , but after death... so truly most folks had little chance of defeating satan in this life, but countless many will be saved in the next as Jesus states ...

It is up to you whether to believe sinners who are of satan, or the saints of scripture , I leave you with that cjhoice, bt please read the scripture and stop pretending that i said these things, teh scripture was wrtten long before I was born and you can read it for yourselves [or not, your choice] ... I only pinted out some of it here and truly it is a whole which you need to read all of in order to have any chance of understanding beyond the strong delusion of the masses that Jesus says causes the whole world to worship Satan before his return [e.g, Rev 13:3-4]

 

[Frogster]

As I said, James resolves the question... it makes no difference then that we disagree about the other scripture

prooftexting is ok?

 

[stranger]

As I said, it would be best to read the scripture as a whole ... I cannot do that for you, so what I have done is highlight a few key texts which ask questions of your current belief [which rests on proof-testing by sinners, not I suspect your own work alone with the bible and asking God what it means...]
one can only do so much with the space available here ... i have been studying the bible for over thirty years now, debinking all the major religions and sects/denominations of 'Christianity of sinners' led by sinners [oxymoron as sinners cannot follow Christ since they follow Satan, no-one can follow two masters], blind leading the blind... so I am not proof-texting, but there is little else one can do by way of proof than quote a few key scriptures in this medium , and sadly few people study all the scripture before they decide what to believe and what church to join... with god there is no leap of faith as with religion , since God teaches all Christians Himself [Heb 8:8-12, the new covenant]
one truth , not the countless differenet versions taught by sinners [with no authority from God to reach at all, since they are not saints, not baptised of the spirit ...]

 

[bugkiller]

As I said, it would be best to read the scripture as a whole ... I cannot do that for you, so what I have done is highlight a few key texts which ask questions of your current belief [which rests on proof-testing by sinners, not I suspect your own work alone with the bible and asking God what it means...]
one can only do so much with the space available here ... i have been studying the bible for over thirty years now, debinking all the major religions and sects/denominations of 'Christianity of sinners' led by sinners [oxymoron as sinners cannot follow Christ since they follow Satan, no-one can follow two masters], blind leading the blind... so I am not proof-texting, but there is little else one can do by way of proof than quote a few key scriptures in this medium , and sadly few people study all the scripture before they decide what to believe and what church to join... with god there is no leap of faith as with religion , since God teaches all Christians Himself [Heb 8:8-12, the new covenant]
one truth , not the countless differenet versions taught by sinners [with no authority from God to reach at all, since they are not saints, not baptised of the spirit ...]

I have you beat by 18 years and so what. As a highschooler I could debate the pastor and win. He was colege educated too. Big whoop-te-do. I do not agree with the postion of the denomination I grew up in and spent 40 plus years with. So what. AllI can do is cry about it. They are worng in their theology and practice. I am still growing in knowledge. I am not following a sinner church or its theology. And I sure ain't gonna bend to your ridiculous unprovable nonsense, either.

This is a primary reason I hang out here at CF.

bugkiller

 

[stranger]

I have you beat by 18 years and so what. As a highschooler I could debate the pastor and win. He was colege educated too. Big whoop-te-do. I do not agree with the postion of the denomination I grew up in and spent 40 plus years with. So what. AllI can do is cry about it. They are worng in their theology and practice. I am still growing in knowledge. I am not following a sinner church or its theology. And I sure ain't gonna bend to your ridiculous unprovable nonsense, either.

This is a primary reason I hang out here at CF.

bugkiller

I am sorry that you think there is a contest , sorry your deceit by the world has turned against even being reprovable to scripture because you. like so many must, decided what to believe before spirit baptism ...

The scripture is not there for us to interpret , but to teach us some truth in absence of receiving all truth from God Himself as the new covenant promises [Jer 31:31-34]

I have merely pointed out what scripture states and explained some of the points it makes, so your victory is not against me ,but against the saints , as indeed Jesus says will happen for all the world bar the few saints left alive by his return [Rev 13:3-10] , rejoice then in Satan's victory over the truth of God in scripture, until you find out sin is unloving and thus disobedience to Jesus [so he is not the lord of sinners because they do not obey him]

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

I am in no sense then surprised that you cannot see the scriptures which would reprove your beliefs to the truth of God, just sad that you think the scripture I quote is of me, for it isn't ... the foundation of God is to depart from iniquity, but it is the saint which points this out to both of us ... so sorry you don't get that and are lost from hearing it because all you want is to claim victory instead of co-operating in finding out what God says from ALL his words as ONE integral truth ... you will find eventually that God breaks us all of such arrogant pride in ourselves

I have faith in love that gives me confidene in the scripture which says you will be saved despite your conviction that you will be saved first even if still a sinner by Jesus' return, so maybe you will remember the scriptures when he does exactly what he says he will do at his return and takes no sinners, but justthe 144,000 saints given him by God under the new covenant with Israel's Jews and the paganised [apparently gentile] lost House of Israel that he states he came to find on command of God...

then perhaps you will not feel so lost if you are still a sinner left behind to suffer the wrath of God with billions of other sinners [all of whom worship Satan as God ,but not Satan I guess Satan by name , they think tey worship God and Christ , but it is the image of a god created by sinners, by Satan in religion ...

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

anyway good 'luck', we cannot tell even now who will be and who will not be baptised of the spirit before Jesus' return, for we know some are Jews, but most are not,and most Jews are not yet baptised of the spirit... we know most are 'gentiles', butwe can have little way of knowing which gentiles are descendants of teh House of Israel, and indeed only a very few of these are taken first...

so Iam sorry that you life drives you to need to thik you will be first, but seriously it doesn't matter who has been chosen by god to be first ebcause countless many whom we know are destroyed in this earth [Matt 7:13-14] are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] , if one believes Jesus and the saints that is ... nothing to do with me ...I simplypoint at these scriptures and ask what you think they mean, cos' it seems to me that they show your statemnets are out of plim with what Jesus and the saints say ... I am willing to discuss though if you have any way of reproving this obvious reading of them ...but you have provided none to date...

[Also , if you have been studying scripture all your life, then likely you have been taught by sinners in your youth ... for all that you see some mistakes in modern religion, you apparently do not see the many scriptures which say love is the only way of God ... sin just isn't loving, it is unloving ... and God has said even the mostwicked will eb forgiven when they stop sinning, but any sin spoils any amount of past righteousness [e.g. Ezek 18]

hope for sinners-to-death is then after resurrection of the unjust from 'hell' [the second resurrection]and only the few firstfruit saints fo this earth [Matt 7:14, jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8] are saved under their new covenant, explicitly with those who are descended fromthose who broke the old covenant [that is the named two nations into which Israel was divided]

Salvation of sinners-to-death of this earth is thus by works after resurrection , not by the NC, and their sins are forgiven only when they are righteous as Peter says they will be :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So yo see Peter too disagrees with you about righteousness , sinners will become righteous in the new earth, in the kingdom come to all men at last , and they ALL resurrected from hel to be judged not by teh NC, but by works :-

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell
delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man
according to their works.

it is then a pagan theory that sin is permanent , men can become loving, even the most evil can change and stop being sinners... perfect love is only to stop sinning, stop being unloving ...

 

[bugkiller]

I am sorry that you think there is a contest , sorry your deceit by the world has turned against even being reprovable to scripture because you. like so many must, decided what to believe before spirit baptism ...

No contest dude. You were bragging a little and my response was to show a so what who cares attitude. You are not the only scholar or long time student in the world. Your presentation does not agree with the Bible.

The scripture is not there for us to interpret , but to teach us some truth in absence of receiving all truth from God Himself as the new covenant promises [Jer 31:31-34]

anytime you talk about something it is an interpretation unless you only quote and nothing more.

I have merely pointed out what scripture states and explained some of the points it makes, so your victory is not against me ,but against the saints , as indeed Jesus says will happen for all the world bar the few saints left alive by his return [Rev 13:3-10] , rejoice then in Satan's victory over the truth of God in scripture, until you find out sin is unloving and thus disobedience to Jesus [so he is not the lord of sinners because they do not obey him]

No you have pointed out your idea about the scripture.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

And what do you mean to say with this scripture? Are you suggesting I am not doing the things Jesus says? You have said several times that I am following the teachings of sinners while refuseing to tell meexactly what I am doing wrong. I think your are condeming me without giving any corrective derictives so that I might preform according to your ideas which you say are scripture. It also appears to me that while you so accuse you really intend to say that you do not sin and therefore are not a sinner. My Bible says all have sinned and that includes you. You can not stop sinning and proclaim that you are of the devil with I John 3:8. So name my sin and illustrate that with an example!

I am in no sense then surprised that you cannot see the scriptures which would reprove your beliefs to the truth of God, just sad that you think the scripture I quote is of me, for it isn't ... the foundation of God is to depart from iniquity, but it is the saint which points this out to both of us ... so sorry you don't get that and are lost from hearing it because all you want is to claim victory instead of co-operating in finding out what God says from ALL his words as ONE integral truth ... you will find eventually that God breaks us all of such arrogant pride in ourselves

What iniquity are you talking about? Jesus rose from the grave victorious! Jesus purchased me and gave me His righteousness which exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees. I do not have a lifestyle of sin.

I have faith in love that gives me confidene in the scripture which says you will be saved despite your conviction that you will be saved first even if still a sinner by Jesus' return, so maybe you will remember the scriptures when he does exactly what he says he will do at his return and takes no sinners, but justthe 144,000 saints given him by God under the new covenant with Israel's Jews and the paganised [apparently gentile] lost House of Israel that he states he came to find on command of God...

I can never be one of the 144,000 because I am not an Isrealite having membership in any tribe thereof and have no plans to join throught circumcision. I am a goyim Gentile lock stock an barrel. I am also a Christian and there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus Gal 3:28.

then perhaps you will not feel so lost if you are still a sinner left behind to suffer the wrath of God with billions of other sinners [all of whom worship Satan as God ,but not Satan I guess Satan by name , they think tey worship God and Christ , but it is the image of a god created by sinners, by Satan in religion ...

I have no idea where you get the idea I worship satan. You are way out in left field.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Again what iniquity am I working? You are condemning again with no directive on how to correct this problem.

anyway good 'luck', we cannot tell even now who will be and who will not be baptised of the spirit before Jesus' return, for we know some are Jews, but most are not,and most Jews are not yet baptised of the spirit... we know most are 'gentiles', butwe can have little way of knowing which gentiles are descendants of teh House of Israel, and indeed only a very few of these are taken first...

The new covenant is open to Gentiles as evidenced in Acts. Jesus Himself said whosoever will and did not say the Jew that will.

so Iam sorry that you life drives you to need to thik you will be first, but seriously it doesn't matter who has been chosen by god to be first ebcause countless many whom we know are destroyed in this earth [Matt 7:13-14] are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] , if one believes Jesus and the saints that is ... nothing to do with me ...I simplypoint at these scriptures and ask what you think they mean, cos' it seems to me that they show your statemnets are out of plim with what Jesus and the saints say ... I am willing to discuss though if you have any way of reproving this obvious reading of them ...but you have provided none to date...

I think I detect jealousy. I never said anything about being first. I also noticed that you removed your faith icon. I think you are a jealous Jew as evidenced in your post. Indeed the scripture is correct when it says I will provoke them to jealousy. Get over it and accept Jesus as your Saviour. He will redeem you too.

[Also , if you have been studying scripture all your life, then likely you have been taught by sinners in your youth ... for all that you see some mistakes in modern religion, you apparently do not see the many scriptures which say love is the only way of God ... sin just isn't loving, it is unloving ... and God has said even the mostwicked will eb forgiven when they stop sinning, but any sin spoils any amount of past righteousness [e.g. Ezek 18]

What verse says you will be forgiven when you stop sinning? Now you are sounding like an SDA which do not accept Redemption by Jesus alone. They also proclaim that redemption isnot complete and they will never know until the verdict at judgement is pronounced if they even made it. They think the Chhristian is judged by their works for salvation. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. You can have my wages. I accept the gift, a much better deal.

hope for sinners-to-death is then after resurrection of the unjust from 'hell' [the second resurrection]and only the few firstfruit saints fo this earth [Matt 7:14, jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8] are saved under their new covenant, explicitly with those who are descended fromthose who broke the old covenant [that is the named two nations into which Israel was divided]

All sinners are unjust and have they part in hell. Salvation has nothing to do with being a descendent from Israel. If that were so you are on the wrong site/forum preaching to those who have no hope. I still think you are an unbelieving Jew who is still blinded and does not understand the NC.

Salvation of sinners-to-death of this earth is thus by works after resurrection , not by the NC, and their sins are forgiven only when they are righteous as Peter says they will be :-[/quote]What do you make of John 10:16? Jesus says He has sheep of another fold. And Gal 3:28 says there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So yo see Peter too disagrees with you about righteousness , sinners will become righteous in the new earth, in the kingdom come to all men at last , and they ALL resurrected from hel to be judged not by teh NC, but by works :-

No Peter and I agree. Peter is talking a time afte the tribulation. Jesus is my righteousness. Does your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees? Mine does because I got it from Jesus Christ. Otherwise our righteousness is like filthy rags and I bet you know exactly what those rags are.

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell
delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man
according to their works.

it is then a pagan theory that sin is permanent , men can become loving, even the most evil can change and stop being sinners... perfect love is only to stop sinning, stop being unloving ...

Only through redemption. Bet you don't much care for Paul either. Read Romans 7:15-25 on this very subject.

You can try all you like you won't steal my faith in Jesus Christ.

bugkiller