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grafted in...

anthony55

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We were grafted in to the true Vine. Not the true nation. :)

Correct, but Jesus Christ is the True Israel isa 49:



1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
 
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anthony55

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crib:

The Jews are broken off because of unbelief in Jesus Christ.
The Gentiles are grafted in because of faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes and this is the Lords doing !

Matt 21:


42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
 
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stranger

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crib:



Yes and this is the Lords doing !

Matt 21:


42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Jesus is himself the head of the corner , and indeed he pointed out that the Pharisees had become sinners and were not going to be the first in the kingdom, but it is equally true that modern sinner 'christians' are NOT a nation and it states that the fruits are given to a nation...

Jesus on the other hand then says that he is sent ONLY to the lost House of Israel :-
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

and not only were they a nation and are forgiven explicitly in the new covenant [heb 8:8-12] , but are prophesied to be THE nation of priests in the kingdom of God [Exodus 19:6]

Thus you do not even bother to read all the scripture you quote, else you would see your errors and seek the truth reading the whole scripture, every word of God ...
 
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heymikey80

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You choose to ignore the far more explicit words of God about who He named 'Israel' :-
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:28-29
For they are not Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” Rom 9:6-7
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh Pp 3:3
 
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stranger

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Well, I guess only you will get in............ Sheeze, all scripture is good but you dont have to bring so much luggage to the table at once.
I dont know where to begin, so I'll just punt.

as with most things the mind tackles. begin at the beginning and make sure that you understand eah step in the discussion as you go... don't rush, take your time, pray about the scriptures you don't get and stop thinking to listen [meditate] once you have asked in prayer...

prove everything for yourself ... read every word of God and compare them with your beliefs you acquired in life from sinners... use the saints' and prophets' and Jesus' written records to straighten out the mass of lies in our world by which man controls man to destroy our home , suppressing the love of almost all men so they don't obey Christ and love one another and thrive happily together..
 
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stranger

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For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:28-29

Indeed so, but some of the children of the 'natural branches' are grafted back in very quickly toward the return of Jesus , since they know the scriptures far better than most, just are more careful about listening to sinners than most... being a Jew outwardly does NOT in any way prevent coming to be one inwardly and all descendants of Jacob do so eventually:-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

equally we know from Jesus that all the firstfruit saints are descendants of named sons of Jacob [Rev 7:3-8], so some at least are indeed Jews inwardly as well as outwardly , the rest are from the idol-worshipping House of Israel to whom alone Jesus said he was sent... so the OT and NT are not incompatible as sinners teach in churches, salvation of the gentiles later [Rev 7:9-10]is indeed of the Jews and one should pray for the remnant saints of Israel because one's later salvation depends upon their ceasing from sin now which you likely cannot do because of bands to Satan... read all the scripture before deciding what to believe from sinners , then you will see only saints and prophets know to teach ... we have their written record for sake of reproof , so read it all ,Satan has been twisting bits of it for Millennia, but can't twist it if you read it all and get understanding from seeking it in prayer to God and meditating on what you don't yet see...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

For they are not Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” Rom 9:6-7

As Jesus says only the few of Israel are taken as firstfruits -Rev 7:3-8, sealed in spirit baptism... so not all Israel wrestles with God as Israel did to get his name [yisra el ... it means one who struggles with the Mighty One]

so indeed not all fulfil the name Israel who are descended of him ,but nevertheless there are none who are not descended from his sons named by Jesus in Rev 7:3-8 as firstfruit saints ... try to read more carefully what scripture says , that some of Israel do not follow Jesus does NOT mean that all who do now do so are not of Israel, Jesus states explicitly that they are, so why don't you want to believe him in Rev 7:3-8... ?

For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh Pp 3:3

This is simply a repetition of what is said in the OT , that following God's law is of the spirit of love and truth of the law, but the flesh leads man astray with its lusts... ironially most who call themselves 'Christians' continue to sin because of lusts of the flesh , find it impossible to stop sinning as Jesus commands and is required of everyone who names Christ , so Jesus says he will indeed leave anyone behind who ha not departed from sin by the time he returns, and we know FEW will do so [Matt 7:14] , so why pretend MANY 'Christians'can follow Jesus now listening to sinmers, when both Jesus and the saints say that FEW will find the way now, and the many who are destroyed [Matt 7:13] are saved LATER [Rev 7:9-10]

It just makes no sense to listen to sinners whenone could just read and believe in Jesus' words and those of his saints and the prophets of God...
 
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stranger

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Do you think the opinions of sinners are more valuable in understanding scripture than the rest of scripture, than Jesus' own words in scripture ?

There's nothing personal about that , Jesus is the only one who hasn't sinned as far as I know
 
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bugkiller

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Do you think the opinions of sinners are more valuable in understanding scripture than the rest of scripture, than Jesus' own words in scripture ?

There's nothing personal about that , Jesus is the only one who hasn't sinned as far as I know
You keep referring to sinners? Who are you calling sinners?

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
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stranger

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A sinner is anyone who hasn't stopped being unloving ... according to Jesus' own figures, that will be all except 144.000 saints by the time of his return ...
but it is not me who calls anyone sinners, it is God who decides, and the scripture verifies that decision by God for anyone who will read it ... you can too if you like ... you don't need me , use your bible to find out ...
 
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bugkiller

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A sinner is anyone who hasn't stopped being unloving ... according to Jesus' own figures, that will be all except 144.000 saints by the time of his return ...
but it is not me who calls anyone sinners, it is God who decides, and the scripture verifies that decision by God for anyone who will read it ... you can too if you like ... you don't need me , use your bible to find out ...
What then is a sinner church? You also mentioned them.

bugkiller
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SGM4HIM

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1 john 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.



Yes, one can find much in scriptures....................
 
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M

mannysee

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I was reading Romans 9-11 again this afternoon.
One thing that really struck me was that this picture of root/branches/tree, seems to present a covenantal structure.

i.e. In the covenant (and its "nourishment"?) we see "holy" branches which are "broken off" because of unbelief.
Something which I suppose wouldn't seem right, if one views the word "holy" and carries with it only the idea of being counted righteous.

There is also the "elect" presented here: Those who are chosen because of grace.

And then the Gentiles are warned that they too may be broken off.
(The cause here being -like the Jews- because of unbelief).

I may be wrong here, but to me, this seems like a covenantal type "nourishment" which the elect and non-elect share in together.
 
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stranger

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What then is a sinner church? You also mentioned them.

bugkiller
927154.gif

A 'church' is imply a congregation [group] of people ho at least notionally agree about a few things about their god [whatever they worship/respect/fear/pray to]

a sinner church is simply a churh of sinners agreeing at least somewhat the teaching of a sinner [ in place for instance of teachings of saints/Jesus/God's prophets who agree as one with scripture]

a sinner is anyone who is unloving to anyone , one who breaks God's law which is to love everyone ,so to show one's love of God, one's respect for lovingness [love as expresed by conscience , one's own need to be loved, the pleasure giving love brings, and indeed the scripture about love as free-giving to all according to need , not greed]
 
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stranger

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1 john 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.]

So don't claim it, let God judge when the time for judgement arrives... God cares nothing about past sins, only that one eventually stops being unloving, stop hurting others by one's sin... Ezek 18:20-21

Yes, one can indeed find much in scriptures....................
 
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Rainie

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So read the REAL new covenant in scripture , the same in OT [Jer 31:31-34] as in the NT [Heb 8:8-12]... the law of God NEVER changed when Jesus came

:thumbsup:
Well said.

I think everyone here can agree to this:
Jesus is without sin, without blemish... He is PERFECT, SPOTLESS.
He had to be in order to be Messiah, Our Saviour. (Heb 4:15, Heb 9:14, 1 Peter 1:19)

Sin, by it's Biblical definition is the breaking of Mt. Sinai Law.

Can anyone here reconcile Jesus' (apparent) teachings on Law abolishment, freedom from keeping the Law... with His PERFECT, SIN-FREE, SPOTLESSNESS as Our Messiah?

Deut 13 may help.

In Him-Rain
 
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Frogster

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:thumbsup:
Well said.

I think everyone here can agree to this:
Jesus is without sin, without blemish... He is PERFECT, SPOTLESS.
He had to be in order to be Messiah, Our Saviour. (Heb 4:15, Heb 9:14, 1 Peter 1:19)

Sin, by it's Biblical definition is the breaking of Mt. Sinai Law.

Can anyone here reconcile Jesus' (apparent) teachings on Law abolishment, freedom from keeping the Law... with His PERFECT, SIN-FREE, SPOTLESSNESS as Our Messiah?

Deut 13 may help.

In Him-Rain

Hi!

As far as Sinai goes, that is why it was abolished, or we would be transgressors.

Why didn't paul want what was destoryed, reinstated?

Answer::) Because if you reinstate the old system, then we are transgressors.

18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

Don't forget out little history lesson, Peter called the law a yoke, the fathers could not bear, nor Peter..he said.."nor us'. Acts 15.:wave:
 
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bugkiller

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A 'church' is imply a congregation [group] of people ho at least notionally agree about a few things about their god [whatever they worship/respect/fear/pray to]

a sinner church is simply a churh of sinners agreeing at least somewhat the teaching of a sinner [ in place for instance of teachings of saints/Jesus/God's prophets who agree as one with scripture]

a sinner is anyone who is unloving to anyone , one who breaks God's law which is to love everyone ,so to show one's love of God, one's respect for lovingness [love as expresed by conscience , one's own need to be loved, the pleasure giving love brings, and indeed the scripture about love as free-giving to all according to need , not greed]
So what are some of the teachings of sinners that you might be talking about. Seems to me that you have included everyone. Do you belong to a sinless church? Are you sinless? If not how do you justify saying anything?

bugkiller
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bugkiller

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:thumbsup:
Well said.

I think everyone here can agree to this:
Jesus is without sin, without blemish... He is PERFECT, SPOTLESS.
He had to be in order to be Messiah, Our Saviour. (Heb 4:15, Heb 9:14, 1 Peter 1:19)

Sin, by it's Biblical definition is the breaking of Mt. Sinai Law.

Can anyone here reconcile Jesus' (apparent) teachings on Law abolishment, freedom from keeping the Law... with His PERFECT, SIN-FREE, SPOTLESSNESS as Our Messiah?

Deut 13 may help.

In Him-Rain
Nice to see you back. Did you have a great summer?

bugkiller
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stranger

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You folks have been listening to sinners instaed of reading scripture:-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The law is Jesus' law of love and sin is UNLOVING ... you break Jesus' law by not departing from sinning... Jesus is not lord of sinners, Satan is :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

You cannot learn the truth from sinners, so why try , they follow Satan , master of lies...

you have what the saints say above... why do you not believe them instead of sinners' twistings of scripture ?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 
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Frogster

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You folks have been listening to sinners instaed of reading scripture:-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The law is Jesus' law of love and sin is UNLOVING ... you break Jesus' law by not departing from sinning... Jesus is not lord of sinners, Satan is :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

You cannot learn the truth from sinners, so why try , they follow Satan , master of lies...

you have what the saints say above... why do you not believe them instead of sinners' twistings of scripture ?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
 
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