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grafted in...

stranger

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the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....
What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.
Steve

Are not the only ones that can be grafted into Israel only exactly just those Jesus was sent to find first... ? :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

After all the Messiah[Christ] is sent to reunite the House of Judah ['Jews'] with this holy nation that ceased to be a people [unlike the Jews] ,yet alongside the House of Judah are the only ones forgiven by grace in the new covenant [Heb 8:8-12] [Note that it says very clearly that it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant]

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
 
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Frogster

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This verse is often used out of context.,or should I say when read alone it does not represent the whole conversation.We see that when the woman had faith and insight to know,that he also came to the gentile "dogs" her faith was rewarded.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly

I think this passage also shows Jesus knew that he was not just for the jews.

Matt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

An old thread,but indeed a good one.
 
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Hismessenger

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The genealogies explains it very well. All who live after the flood are the offspring of Noah. All the nations from Which Abraham was taken were, including His nation, were gentiles. This is confirmed by Gen 11 & 12.

But Abraham fond grace..............

Just as we have thank you Jesus.

hismessenger
 
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Frogster

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The genealogies explains it very well. All who live after the flood are the offspring of Noah. All the nations from Which Abraham was taken were, including His nation, were gentiles. This is confirmed by Gen 11 & 12.

But Abraham fond grace..............

Just as we have thank you Jesus.

hismessenger

hmmm,very interesting.
Welp,,ok,I now we are the seed of abe,and inherit the promised spirit,as per gal 3:14,and what happened in Acts 2,that it was also for us,who were far off.Yet,I guess it seems wierd to think we have land rights in israel,as far as the 'natural blessings" go.If you know what i mean?

Rom 9:8 indicates- that it is not about the natural lineage..lol,the cov issue really can get crazy,once we try to either connect,or for that matter separate natual,from spiritual only.

love the subject though.look foward to your thoughts.
 
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Hismessenger

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It goes back to the corruptable seed into which we were lied into which Paul was teaching about. We must put off this corruptable and put back on the incorruptable and this is what Christ did for us and Abraham is a foretelling of the grace to which we have been afforded by Christ's sacrifice.

hismessenger
 
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Norbert L

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the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....


What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Steve

Morally a lot of people agree, the you shalt not murder or steal. Plenty of advanced nations have similar crimnal law that is clearing understood by its' community. Yet somehow the jailhouses are full of innocent inhabitants.

The biblical testimony of actually having an entire nation, ancient Israel, under God in front of their eyes day and night, and still many people just didn't get it. Now suddenly everyone is to assume that just by vocalising "Jesus is Lord" is grafted in?

Could it be that there are a lot of people who sincerely believe in God but are still gentiles in spirit but have not been spiritually circumcised yet?

"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves" (Ro 2:14)

That they are still unknowingly waiting for the day, "in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."? (Ro 2:16)

Frankly what the average man believes doesn't hold much weight, seeing sooo many stood before the Great God Himself beforehand and didn't believe.

In theoretical and practical terms, the only option is to read the scriptures and pray fearfully, tremble at His word, that God will send help in His way at the time He chooses and clear up the blasphemy and transgressions a person may have.

After all cannot God send prophets like Nathen to point things out?

"Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." (Psa 51:4)
 
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Hismessenger

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God can send prophets but He sent someone better, The Spirit of truth which is The Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus. To look outside yourself is to be deceived for The Holy Spirit is indwelling and if you seek Him diligently, He will show you His truth. The word of God is powerful, believe it and all things become possible in Him.

hismessenger
 
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stranger

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Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly

I think this passage also shows Jesus knew that he was not just for the jews.

Matt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

An old thread,but indeed a good one.

The solution to this discussion is , sas always to read EVERY word of God and stop relying on scraps here and there :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Go back to the beginning then, God's word simply has to be ONE truth beginning to end else you have not read it the way it was written originally... [big help if one is Jewish then, except for the traditions which deny the scriptures , but o help if one is trying to fit the scriptures to modern divided religious myths and doctrines instead of finding the doctrines of Christ in the WHOLE word of God ]

Clearly i can only give examples here, you must read it for yoursef ad not give in to short-cuts if you want the truth...

So look at the questions these few quotes ask that require to be answered :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

There is only one holy nation in all scripture which is not a people ... note that the Jews [House of Judah mostly] are a people and united as a people by Judaism

BUT the larger part of Israel NEVER accepted Judaism, were and ARE idol-worshippers :-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

The House of Israel were and largely still are REJECTED by the Jews , formed a SEPARATE nation with their own kings, and were LOST, scattered amongst the gentiles , long before the infamous scattering of the Jews [but for the same reason, not listening to and doing what God had them agree to doing]

the [amazing to most!] truth in scripture is that most of Israel were NEVER Jews and still worship idols even today, living as gentiles amongst the gentiles , but true descendants of Jacob [Israel]

Peter makes the point in the NT that is repeated over and over in the OT, that the remnant descendants of the House of Israel will be united with a few Jews too as the nation of Israel UNDER CHRIST, under one ling, teh Messiah :-

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

It should be clear that Israel is not re-united under one king YET and that Israel is not yet a holy nation of priests as promised by God through Moses, so the righteous kingdom on earth under Christ is still only something , an idea in the hearts of the few saints of this earth as yet...

That is consistent with scripture , Jesus says his kingdom is not of THIS earth, and yet that his saints will rule on earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Peter [and Isaiah for that matter] resolves the point :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Jesus confirms the point which most folks ignore :-

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

So do you believe Christ or not ?...

the simple truth consistent with scripture as a WHOLE is that God had to name his priesthood for sake of being able to prophesy... to show His power is above time... that He knows the end from the beginning... He named Israel, so that is who they are to be ... Jesus confirms the descendency of ALL firstfruit saints sealed by spirit baptism, ALL are descendants of Jacob, named by Jesus according to the sons of Jacob they are descended from [Rev 9:3-8] ... one can hardly be more explicit than that , named by tribe of Israel... but you see the scripture proves that they are not all Jews, in fact most are likely not Jews since the House of Israel was far lager than the House of Judah, most of Israel never accepted judaism, but worshipped and still worship idols, as the scripture of God states [above quote for instance]

Now one may see why Jesus came to find the lost sheep of the House of Israel and sent his disciples AMONGST the gentiles to find them... read it, jesus is very explicit about the task he sets ALL who follow him truly... then look at how FEW who call themselves 'christians'who have never even trobled to find out who the nation who are not a people are , let alone their relevance to teh futiure as the priests of god ordaisned by god for his kingdom... consider too then tose who usurp the priesthood in this earth, who are as far from being saints as one can get, teaching many false beliefs about Christ, servants of teh antichrist :-

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Yhere are deep truths about the role of the deceived and the deceiver in scripture, but so few read them taht i guess few will even bother to read and understand this far... so i will stop there , for now...
 
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stranger

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Rmans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


NOTES :
ALL Israel is to be saved ... ONLY the House of Israel and Th house of Judah are under grace, those whose fathers broke the OLD covenant , now unconditionally FORGIVEN ...
 
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graceforlife

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the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....


What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Steve

It would be more accurate to say that we were grafted into the New Covenant which was originally promised to Israel, but is now available to Gentiles as well, indeed the entire Church.
 
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stranger

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It would be more accurate to say that we were grafted into the New Covenant which was originally promised to Israel, but is now available to Gentiles as well, indeed the entire Church.

Jesus and the saints witness shows repeatedly that this cannot be true :

only FEW are redeemed at Jesus' return [matt 7:14] and they are those who have CEASED from all sinning, obey Jesus command to love and stop sinning :-

Psalms 6:8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God made the rule, men tried to change it with religion... who will prove correct in the end ?

It is simple really, Jesus COMMANDED the few saints to love and sin is NOT love ... only the saints then obey Jesus as lord, a lord is one whom one OBEYS ... Jesus is NOT then the lord of sinners, but rather sinners obey Satan as lord... simple truth few now wish to acknowledge because religion pretends it is OK to continue sinning all one's life ... Jesus simply states that he will take none who have not stopped sinning by his return ... again who is right, sinners in frocks or Christ ?... read it yourself and weap for those deceived by Satan's divided religio, rejoice in God's truth of scripture ...
 
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Rainie

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Rmans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


NOTES : ALL Israel is to be saved ... ONLY the House of Israel and Th house of Judah are under grace, those whose fathers broke the OLD covenant , now unconditionally FORGIVEN ...


:clap::clap::clap::clap: Well done
 
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stranger

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Read the new covenant, what GOD actually says He agrees to - Heb 8:8-13

Note that the new covenant of grace states in God's own words that it is with those whose fathers [ancestors] broke the old covenant ...

Note that MOST people do not have ancestors who broke the old covenant, but that the Jews are NOT the only ones who did, according to God in scripture , and that Jesus himself sent his disciples out to find the House of Israel who NEVER accepted Judaism and worshipped idols even after they were scattered amongst the getiles all over the world by God ...

In short, if one wants to believe in God, read the WHOLE scripture, every word of God, do not accept any of the countless creeds of the traditions of men which simply, logically, CANNOT be ONE truth of God ... check out the scripture yourself, it is amazing, and amazingly different to traditions of men in religion... and you KNOW why traditions never get put straight , they would lose their false credibility, their empty authority in place of God ...
 
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the particular baptist

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Jesus Christ is Israel. The narrative of the Gospels presents Jesus as the true Israel.

Matthew 2:13-15 "Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him." And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Later we find Jesus temptation in the wilderness of 40 days. He is faced with the same series of temptations that Israel faced when they were in the wilderness.

The narrative is presenting Jesus as the faithful Israel.


The OT passage that states Christ is Israel is found in Hosea


Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.


Therefore, if ye be Christ's you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29
 
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stranger

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1 Kings 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

Psalms 77:15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

There is no ambiguity in scripture if you read it ALL before deciding what it means ... there is no doubt about these PLURALS ... this is NOT talking about one person
 
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stranger

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It would be more accurate to say that we were grafted into the New Covenant which was originally promised to Israel, but is now available to Gentiles as well, indeed the entire Church.

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

The new covenant STATES from God that it is Israel's two kingdoms whih are under grace, no-one else, only those whose fathers broke the old covenant... why not READ what God says Hid agreement is , instea of listening to sinners who just want your money and support for their distortions against what scripture actually says ... soothsaying that you WANT to hear, but god shows the TRUTH in scripture :-

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

... Try to READ what God says in YOUR bible and ignore what sinners have taught you to believe in churches...
 
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Cribstyl

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the new testament indicates that by faith we are grafted into Isra'el....


What does this mean to you in theoretical and practical terms.

Steve
Steve, it seem clear that your statement is in error. Here is a look at Paul's dialog again.1


13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [fn3] of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Steve, Israel are considered a branch that was broken off and the Gentiles are considered as a branch that are being grafted into the root not into Israel.

The Jews are broken off because of unbelief in Jesus Christ.
The Gentiles are grafted in because of faith in Jesus Christ.


Until you recognize and admit that error there will be no common ground on this issue.
Other are confusing the facts in this argument by importing other text and arguments.
Frogster is on point for the most part.:thumbsup:
Stranger is confusing the facts of this issue with long commentaries and making unrelated arguments.:doh:
 
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