Grace

[Xeno.of.athens]

Catholic teaching on grace and salvation emphasises that grace is a free and unmerited gift from God, enabling individuals to share in His divine life and achieve salvation. This grace is primarily received through the sacraments, such as Baptism and the Eucharist, which are seen as channels of sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace transforms the soul, making it holy and pleasing to God, while actual grace helps individuals act according to God's will in specific situations.

Salvation, according to Catholic doctrine, is a process that begins with God's grace and requires a response of faith and good works. The Church rejects the idea that salvation can be earned solely through human effort (a heresy known as Pelagianism) and teaches that it is through God's grace, faith in Jesus Christ, and cooperation with that grace through good works that one attains salvation.

This understanding highlights the balance between God's initiative and human response, emphasising that salvation is both a gift and a journey

 

[Clare73]

Catholic teaching on grace and salvation emphasises that grace is a free and unmerited gift from God, enabling individuals to share in His divine life and achieve salvation.

According to the NT, we don't "achieve" salvation.
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) through which the Holy Spirit applies salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

According to the NT, we don't "achieve" salvation.

I suspect that Christians do, but you say that you don't.

 

[Clare73]

I suspect that Christians do, but you say that you don't.

And your suspicion is incorrect.
Christians don't "achieve" salvation, any more than they "achieve" faith or justification.

All are from God (Eph 2:8-9, Php 2:19, Ro 3:28), not from anyone's "achievement."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Christians don't "achieve" salvation, any more than they "achieve" faith or justification.

Christians do achieve salvation, it is given to them, which is quite an achievement. Your trouble is that you quibble over words endlessly. It make discussions with you very tiresome.

 

[Clare73]

Christians do achieve salvation, it is given to them, which is quite an achievement. Your trouble is that you quibble over words endlessly.
It make discussions with you very tiresome.

< sigh >

Yes, Biblical truth takes work, particularly in light of so much contra-Biblical teaching claiming to be truth.
What is "tiresome" is sloppy word use which serves only to confuse Biblical truth.
You have only to read epistles such as Galatians to see how hard Paul worked to clarify the wording of the truth.

Words are the substance of definition. . .sorry you find adherence to Biblical meaning to be tiresome.
Incorrect words = incorrect definitions. . .which is why adherence to salvation "through the gift of faith (Php 1:29) only" (Eph 2:8-9) is important.

"Achievement," by definition, is accomplished by human effort.
The Biblical faith which "achieves" salvation is a gift excluding the "achievement" of human effort (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[fhansen]

Faith is a gift (Ph 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) through which the Holy Spirit applies salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

Eph 2:8-9 doesn't say anything about the HS applying salvation through faith. Faith is a gift of grace, as are hope and love, all of which gifts can be accepted, expressed, and acted upon, or not; they can also be rejected. To the extent that we're daily picking up our cross and following Jesus, to the extent that we're walking by the Spirit, we're accepting, expressing, and acting upon those gifts-and growing in them and the holiness that are intrinsic to them. That's the life of grace. And salvation will be the result:

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[Clare73]

Eph 2:8-9 doesn't say anything about the HS applying salvation through faith. Faith is a gift of grace, as are hope and love, all of which gifts can be accepted, expressed, and acted upon, or not; they can also be rejected. To the extent that we're daily picking up our cross and following Jesus, to the extent that we're walking by the Spirit, we're accepting, expressing, and acting upon those gifts-and growing in them and the holiness that are intrinsic to them. That's the life of grace. And salvation will be the result:

There is no life of grace apart from salvation.
Salvation is the remission of sin and condemnation by (as the result of) faith (Eph 2:8-9).
Eternal life is the result of salvation, which is the result of faith.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Only the redeemed do such.

"But now that you have been set free from sin

Set free through salvation (remission of sin) by faith.

and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[fhansen]

There is no life of grace apart from salvation.
Salvation is the remission of sin and condemnation by (as the result of) faith (Eph 2:8-9).
Eternal life is the result of salvation which is the result of faith.

The life of grace is offered to all-and it leads to salvation if we persist in it, if we remain in Him. It leads to salvation because it leads to holiness, which overcomes the sin that leads to death.

Only the redeemed do such.

If they persist, if they persevere. That's why such verses as Rom 2;7 were written, to instruct us of that need.
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

Set free through salvation (remission of sin) by faith.

And totally optional-that's why Rom 6 and other related passages were written- to warn us not to be slaves of sin, not to return to the flesh that results in death.

 

[Clare73]

The life of grace is offered to all-and it leads to salvation if we persist in it,

Not according to the NT.

Salvation is only by faith (Eph 2:8-9), which is a gift (Php 1:29). No one is saved because of persisting in grace, rather we persist in grace because we are saved. . .which is only by the gift of faith.

if we remain in Him. It leads to salvation because it leads to holiness, which overcomes the sin that leads to death.

There is no holiness apart from salvation by faith.
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29) given only to the born again by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) Holy Spirit in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5).

If they persist, if they persevere. That's why such verses as Rom 2;7 were written, to instruct us of that need.
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

And totally optional-that's why Rom 6 and other related passages were written- to warn us not to be slaves of sin, not to return to the flesh that results in death.

Warnings are one of the means by which God preserves the elect.

 

[Lukaris]

I tend to think that any sense of achievement of salvation is just a description for our being saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10)in a life lived out in faith. We are saved by hope not by assuming we got it already “in the bag”. ( Romans 8:15-25, especially verses 24 & 25).

Hebrews 11:1-40 and Hebrews 12:1 teaches us the how faith and hope are defined and work in a living way by the examples of the Old Testament saints. They did not have the promise ( Hebrews 11:39) we have because they had no way of knowing the fulfillment of God’s plan but they trusted God all the same. Even with the promise, St. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 of only know in part ( verse 9) and see through a glass darkly ( verse 12) etc.

 

[fhansen]

Not according to the NT.

Salvation is only by faith (Eph 2:8-9), which is a gift (Php 1:29). No one is saved because of persisting in grace, rather we persist in grace because we are saved. . .which is only by the gift of faith.

There is no holiness apart from salvation by faith.
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29) given only to the born again by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) Holy Spirit in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5).

Warnings are one of the means by which God preserves the elect.

Warnings are simply the means by which God warns...all. The whole bible from beginning to end is instruction, information, warning, admonishment, beckoning, encouragement, etc for man to come to God and remain in Him, to make his calling and election sure. Those who do so will be the elect. He already knows who will persevere, of course. This life is a race, a battlefield between good and evil. Our choice will be judged by how we live our lives with the grace given us. Either way there’d be no need for revelation, let alone all the sin, ugliness and victimization ending in death afforded by this world, if God's only purpose is to predetermine for us who will go to heaven and who to hell. From Eden until now He’s worked to steer man to right use of his freedom.

"Whoever heeds instruction is on the path to life, but he who rejects reproof goes astray." Prov 10:17

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.” Matt 7:24

 

[ARBITER01]

I tend to think that any sense of achievement of salvation is just a description for our being saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10)in a life lived out in faith. We are saved by hope not by assuming we got it already “in the bag”.

Trying to live out a life of faith based solely upon your own actions and personal belief is not good enough my friend.

We must be born from above. It is a work of heaven that is initiated by faith that has a tangible experience in our lives.

 

[Clare73]

I tend to think that any sense of achievement of salvation is just a description for our being saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10)
in a life lived out in faith.

That reads, "it is by grace you have been saved through faith,". . .which faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

We are saved by hope not by assuming we got it already “in the bag”. ( Romans 8:15-25, especially verses 24 & 25).

The NT disagrees. Hope is not enough.
There is no saving grace apart from faith.

Hebrews 11:1-40 and Hebrews 12:1 teaches us the how faith and hope are defined and work in a living way by the examples of the Old Testament saints. They did not have the promise ( Hebrews 11:39)

They were saved by faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

we have because they had no way of knowing the fulfillment of God’s plan but they trusted God all the same. Even with the promise, St. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 of only know in part ( verse 9) and see through a glass darkly ( verse 12) etc.

 

[Lukaris]

Trying to live out a life of faith based solely upon your own actions and personal belief is not good enough my friend.

We must be born from above. It is a work of heaven that is initiated by faith that has a tangible experience in our lives.

When I read John 3 in light of John 3:3, the Lord clearly tells us to put our faith and trust in Him and by Him that we are to do what is right ( John 3:16-21). Whatever good we might do is given to us from heaven according to John the Baptist ( John 3:27). Belief requires obedience ( John 3:36); God wants us to do good stuff and we conform to Him with the abilities we got ( John 14:15-18); living by His commandments ( Romans 13:8-10).

 

[Lukaris]

The New Testament says hope is part of faith ( Hebrews 11:1).

 

[Clare73]

Warnings are simply the means by which God warns...all.

Agreed. . .but only the elect have spiritual benefit from them, most of mankind ignores them.

The whole bible from beginning to end is instruction, information, warning, admonishment, beckoning, encouragement, etc for man to
come to God and remain in Him,

Which no one can do apart from the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:8-6) will of the Holy Spirit in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) and his gift of faith (Php 1:29).

to make his calling and election sure. Those who do so will be the elect.

So we can guarantee God will elect us?

Was Paul God's elect before or after his Damascus road experience?
He was God's elect before when he was murdering Christians.
He didn't come to saving faith until after that road experience, but he was God's elect to saving faith all along.

And when the elect comes to saving faith, God's election will show in a life of obedience, so that those living in disobedience have no assurance they are the elect.

He already knows who will persevere, of course. This life is a race, a battlefield between good and evil. Our choice will be judged by how we live our lives with the grace given us. Either way there’d be no need for revelation, let alone all the sin, ugliness and victimization ending in death afforded by this world, if God's only purpose is to predetermine for us who will go to heaven and who to hell. From Eden until now He’s worked to steer man to right use of his freedom.

Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.
Can man choose to live a sinless life?

 

[fhansen]

Agreed. . .but only the elect have spiritual benefit from them, most of mankind ignores them.

And the ones who don't ignore, to the end, are the elect. That's the most we can know with absolute certainty.

Which no one can do apart from the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:8-6) will of the Holy Spirit in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) and his gift of faith (Php 1:29).

Yes, the bible is a call first of all to not be apart from Him-which man ignored right from the beginning. And gifts can still be ignored as well-or thrown out later on.

So we can guarantee God will elect us?

Was Paul God's elect before or after his Damascus road experience?
He was God's elect before when he was murdering Christians.
He didn't come to saving faith until after that road experience, but he was God's elect to saving faith all along.

And when the elect comes to saving faith, God's election will show in a life of obedience, so that those living in disobedience have no assurance they are the elect.

The elect are guaranteed to enter heaven- God, alone, knows with perfect certainty just who they are. Picking up our cross daily and following is always optonal. Those who persevere in doing so will have evidence of good fruit and therefore deservedly a stronger level of assurance than others who don't do so.

Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.
Can man choose to live a sinless life?

Man can choose to remain in Christ, in a relationship with God that ensures good fruit. As with any relationship he can also fail to continue to value it, and so fail to remain Him. But, as you know, "Apart from Me you can do nothing". That's what we're here in this crazy world to learn, and to confirm, so that we'll draw and stay near.
"Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded." James 4:8

Seems like we have a little work to do, a little effort to make, but not according to the law which accomplishes no righteousness in us. Fortunately Jesus' burden is light and, 'we can do all things through Him who strengthens us'.

Salvation is all about that relationship or communion, not about some one-time rebirth event or act of faith.

 

[Clare73]

And the ones who don't ignore, to the end, are the elect. That's the most we can know with absolute certainty.

A counterfeit faith where salvation is based on one's works can also not ignore them, but that does not mean they are saved.

Yes, the bible is a call first of all to not be apart from Him-which man ignored right from the beginning. And gifts can still be ignored as well-or thrown out later on.

No, the gift of saving faith by the power of the Holy Spirit is never thrown out, for that gift of faith included you in Christ, where you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13-14).

The elect are guaranteed to enter heaven- God, alone, knows with perfect certainty just who they are.

Paul disagrees: "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. . .heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" in his inheritance from the Father. (Ro 8:16-17)

Picking up our cross daily and following is always optonal. Those who persevere in doing so will have evidence of good fruit and therefore deservedly a stronger level of assurance than others who don't do so.
Man can choose to remain in Christ, in a relationship with God that ensures good fruit. As with any relationship he can also fail to continue to value it, and so fail to remain Him. But, as you know, "Apart from Me you can do nothing". That's what we're here in this crazy world to learn, and to confirm, so that we'll draw and stay near.
"Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded." James 4:8
Seems like we have a little work to do, a little effort to make, but not according to the law which accomplishes no righteousness in us. Fortunately Jesus' burden is light and, 'we can do all things through Him who strengthens us'.

Salvation is all about that relationship or communion, not about some one-time rebirth event or act of faith.

Salvation is about that one-time sovereign rebirth (based on nothing but the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind Jn 3:6-8), and by which rebirth the Holy Spirit brings the elect into that relationship, enabling them to walk in obedience, and by which apart from that rebirth no such relationship is even possible.

 

[fhansen]

A counterfeit faith where salvation is based on one's works can also not ignore them, but that does not mean they are saved.

Yes, either way we can't know with absolute certainy.

No, the gift of saving faith by the power of the Holy Spirit is never thrown out, for that gift of faith included you in Christ, where you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13-14).

No, it can be thrown out by us, just as Adam threw it out in Eden with God right there with him. There was much to learn, wisdom to be gained now by experience in this relatively godless, sin-laced world. That's one aspect of His grace.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2 20-22

Paul disagrees: "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. . .heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" in his inheritance from the Father. (Ro 8:16-17)

Sure, and people are wrong and self-deceived all day long about subjective experiences. I'm sure Paul knew that as well. There are two sides to the coin.

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

Salvation is about that one-time sovereign rebirth (based on nothing but the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind Jn 3:6-8), and by which rebirth the Holy Spirit brings the elect into that relationship, enabling them to walk in obedience, and by which apart from that rebirth no such relationship is even possible.

Salvation is about coming to know and so believe in, hope in, and, most importantl;y, to love the true God as revealed by His Son.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3