Grace vs obedience

wnwall

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God unchangeably decreed when you would respond and exactly what you would say. You did that as you had no choice to do otherwise. What accounting is due?
The only objection I'm reading from you is, If no one can resist God's will, why does he still find fault? That's exactly the same question Paul was asked.

If you are asking the same questions Paul was asked in response to the same teaching Paul taught, I think it's fair to say the teaching is biblical.

Man is responsible and God is sovereign. It may be a paradox, but it's not a contradiction; it's a mystery, and we do not understand it all, but it's what the Bible teaches.
 
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Beoga

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That is not what you said. You Said:

[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]You are not the cause of anything. The only accounting you give is what exactly. God unchangeably decreed when you would respond and exactly what you would say. You did that as you had no choice to do otherwise. What accounting is due?

I am the direct cause of lots of things, God is the direct cause of all things for it is He that works all things after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1:11).
In same way, the Jews and Romans were responsible for the death of Christ. It is they that carried out the unlawful trial of Christ and it is they that drove the nails through His body. These people directly caused the murder of Christ. Yet it is still said that God is the ultimate cause of Christ's death because they put Christ to death in accordance with God's predetermine plan and foreknowledge.
Acts 2:
23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
 
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Boxmaker

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I am the direct cause of lots of things, God is the direct cause of all things for it is He that works all things after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1:11).
In same way, the Jews and Romans were responsible for the death of Christ. It is they that carried out the unlawful trial of Christ and it is they that drove the nails through His body. These people directly caused the murder of Christ. Yet it is still said that God is the ultimate cause of Christ's death because they put Christ to death in accordance with God's predetermine plan and foreknowledge.
Acts 2:
23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Did they have a choice int he matter or were they just doing what God had ordained they would do?
 
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Boxmaker

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The only objection I'm reading from you is, If no one can resist God's will, why does he still find fault? That's exactly the same question Paul was asked.

If you are asking the same questions Paul was asked in response to the same teaching Paul taught, I think it's fair to say the teaching is biblical.

Man is responsible and God is sovereign. It may be a paradox, but it's not a contradiction; it's a mystery, and we do not understand it all, but it's what the Bible teaches.
God allows man to resist His will. Its called sin.
 
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wnwall

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God allows man to resist His will. Its called sin.
Yes, his will in his law. But the Bible does not teach man can resist what God wills to come to pass. And the Bible teaches that everything that comes to pass, comes to pass because God wills it.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.
 
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Beoga

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Did they have a choice int he matter or were they just doing what God had ordained they would do?

This is not an either/or situation, it is a both/and. So to answer your question, the Scriptures are very clear that this was ordained by God. The Scriptures are also clear that these men willingly engaged in the sin.
 
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Boxmaker

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Yes, his will in his law. But the Bible does not teach man can resist what God wills to come to pass. And the Bible teaches that everything that comes to pass, comes to pass because God wills it.
Paul was speaking of nations when he made the statement about the potter and the clay, not individuals.

That having been said, I agree that man cannot thwart God will for what He has determined must happen. God raises people up for His purpose Pharaoh, Moses, David and all the other profits but still He gives us free will. For without free will, there is no meaningful obedience.
 
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wnwall

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but still He gives us [libertarian] free will. For without [libertarian] free will, there is no meaningful obedience.
That's mere human wisdom. You cannot find that any place in scripture.

Not only that, it flies in the face of the biblical evidence.

Truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place (Acts 4:27).
 
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edie19

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A gentle reminder to those who are not members of SR, this particular forum is "Ask a Calvinist." The purpose of this forum is to ask friendly questions, not challenge the doctrinal tenets.

There is a forum "Debate a Calvinist." If you want to debate - take it there.

edie
 
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Boxmaker

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A gentle reminder to those who are not members of SR, this particular forum is "Ask a Calvinist." The purpose of this forum is to ask friendly questions, not challenge the doctrinal tenets.

There is a forum "Debate a Calvinist." If you want to debate - take it there.

edie
I'm not debating, I have asked a question about the Westminster Confession and a conflict that is in Chapter 3. I have tried to explain it a number of different ways and I have asked how the Calvinist reconciles the inconstancy. So far the only answers I have received are links to other pages and implications that I am not able to understand it. I was hoping that somebody here, in there own words, would provide an explanation.
 
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wnwall

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and implications that I am not able to understand it
Perhaps the reason for that is we do not understand it either, at least not completely. It is a paradox. But we believe it is biblical, so we believe it is true, and we do not think it is a contradiction.

To refresh you a little on what you may already know, a contradiction is if a statement is both true and false at the same time. Some examples of contradictions are, "God planned our sin, and God did not plan our sin," or, "We are responsible for our sin, and we are not responsible for our sin." Both of those statements are contradictions, but neither is what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches, "God planned our sin, and we are responsible for our sin." It's paradoxical because in our normal way of thinking, if we plan something, we're the only ones responsible for it. But the only way it's a contradiction is if you make the assumption that, "The planner is the only responsible party." The Bible indicates this is a faulty assumption, therefore, "God planned our sin, and we are responsible for our sin," is not a contradiction.

Wayne Grudem compared it somewhat to Shakespeare. We would not hold Shakespeare accountable for King Duncan's death. Macbeth murdered King Duncan, but Shakespeare wrote the story. It's not a perfect comparison, of course, but it is helpful as an insight into how the responsible party can be someone other than the planner.
 
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Boxmaker

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Perhaps the reason for that is we do not understand it either, at least not completely. It is a paradox. But we believe it is biblical, so we believe it is true, and we do not think it is a contradiction.

To refresh you a little on what you may already know, a contradiction is if a statement is both true and false at the same time. Some examples of contradictions are, "God planned our sin, and God did not plan our sin," or, "We are responsible for our sin, and we are not responsible for our sin." Both of those statements are contradictions, but neither is what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches, "God planned our sin, and we are responsible for our sin." It's paradoxical because in our normal way of thinking, if we plan something, we're the only ones responsible for it. But the only way it's a contradiction is if you make the assumption that, "The planner is the only responsible party." The Bible indicates this is a faulty assumption, therefore, "God planned our sin, and we are responsible for our sin," is not a contradiction.

Wayne Grudem compared it somewhat to Shakespeare. We would not hold Shakespeare accountable for King Duncan's death. Macbeth murdered King Duncan, but Shakespeare wrote the story. It's not a perfect comparison, of course, but it is helpful as an insight into how the responsible party can be someone other than the planner.
Thank you for an honest answer. I can respect that!
 
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Beoga

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I'm not debating, I have asked a question about the Westminster Confession and a conflict that is in Chapter 3. I have tried to explain it a number of different ways and I have asked how the Calvinist reconciles the inconstancy. So far the only answers I have received are links to other pages and implications that I am not able to understand it. I was hoping that somebody here, in there own words, would provide an explanation.

Actually a number of people have explained section you say you have problems with (including my own paraphrase in response to your paraphrase). Yet you still don't seem to grasp what is being said in the Confession, hence the charge that you seem unable to understand this Confessional section.
Yet you still have many able and patient posters here willing to dialog with you in an attempt to help you understand what the confession says and what we believe.
 
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xapis

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Box,
I'd like to apologize for being so short with you earlier. I never meant to imply that you're stupid or ignorant. I just recognized that your conception of the Reformed view was flawed. I think wnwall summed it up quite well there in post #73... much better than I could have.

Grace & Peace.
 
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Boxmaker

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Box,
I'd like to apologize for being so short with you earlier. I never meant to imply that you're stupid or ignorant. I just recognized that your conception of the Reformed view was flawed. I think wnwall summed it up quite well there in post #73... much better than I could have.

Grace & Peace.
Thank you. I know that my view of the Reformed position does not match your understanding. I have been struggling with chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession for awhile. I cannot resolve it in my own mind so I ask people to who hold to the view to explain how they resolve chapter 3.

I fully understand accepting something on faith and I respect that. Our entire foundation as Christians is based on faith in things the rest of the world sees as folly. Staying true to our faith can be a very difficult thing to do.

People will ask me questions about why I believe and I always to my best to answer their questions from scripture. Sometimes my beliefs need a little explanation that goes beyond scripture such as my view on evolution. God created everything and as part of that creation He gave animals the ability to adapt to their environments. That does not mean a monkey became a man. Men and monkeys are separate acts of creation. Saying that species can adapt to their environment is not in the scripture but it is observable and true. It is science pointing to God's glory.

Anyway, have a blessed day.
 
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bradfordl

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Well.... been out of town and off line for two weeks, and come back here only to find my dear friend Boxy up to his old game of pounding his head against the bricks again. The reality is that ol' Box is just adamantly determined to resist simple truth, and the following statement he made earlier is strongest evidence of why:

as interpreted by the Holy Spirit in your life

He steadfastly confines God to the same limitations under which he operates, and is incapable of conceiving anything other than an essential equivalance between the mind of God and his own. Which is why he insists that he is the only true font of interpretation of scripture for himself.... it is a subjective, pluralistic mindset that vaunts itself up at the expense of God's sovereignty.

But the scripture says:

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(2Pe 1:19-21)

So if scripture is not of private interpretation, then it must be that we are to share and record the interpretations of fellow saints, discern those that are biblically correct, and use them as aids in the study of the Word. All in the provision of our God and His Spirit.
 
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da525382

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Well.... been out of town and off line for two weeks, and come back here only to find my dear friend Boxy up to his old game of pounding his head against the bricks again. The reality is that ol' Box is just adamantly determined to resist simple truth, and the following statement he made earlier is strongest evidence of why:



He steadfastly confines God to the same limitations under which he operates, and is incapable of conceiving anything other than an essential equivalance between the mind of God and his own. Which is why he insists that he is the only true font of interpretation of scripture for himself.... it is a subjective, pluralistic mindset that vaunts itself up at the expense of God's sovereignty.

But the scripture says:



So if scripture is not of private interpretation, then it must be that we are to share and record the interpretations of fellow saints, discern those that are biblically correct, and use them as aids in the study of the Word. All in the provision of our God and His Spirit.
Bradford,

Isn't this scripture on private interpretation saying that the scripture itself that was written by the inspired author was not of his own private interpretation?

Don
 
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bradfordl

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Bradford,

Isn't this scripture on private interpretation saying that the scripture itself that was written by the inspired author was not of his own private interpretation?

Don
Yes, it is saying that, Don, and thereby implies that if the very human authors of the scriptures are not inspired by their own private interpretation, neither should the readers in their understanding of it. Box's statement "as interpreted by the Holy Spirit in your life" infers a private, subjective mode of understanding scripture that is not biblical, and is his rational for rejecting the recorded observations and exegesis of saints past in the forms of creeds and confessions.

From Box's point of view, we must all determine the meaning of scripture on our own with no input from any other source or it is invalid. This would exclude not only creeds and confessions, but also preaching, study helps, discussions between fellow believers, and any written or spoken form of exegesis other than the scriptures themselves. That is ludicrous. As was stated earlier, even "no creed but Christ" is a creed; just left unwritten out of a superstitious idea that to write down what we believe is somehow sacreligious.

Blessings,

Brad
 
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da525382

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Yes, it is saying that, Don, and thereby implies that if the very human authors of the scriptures are not inspired by their own private interpretation, neither should the readers in their understanding of it. Box's statement "as interpreted by the Holy Spirit in your life" infers a private, subjective mode of understanding scripture that is not biblical, and is his rational for rejecting the recorded observations and exegesis of saints past in the forms of creeds and confessions.

From Box's point of view, we must all determine the meaning of scripture on our own with no input from any other source or it is invalid. This would exclude not only creeds and confessions, but also preaching, study helps, discussions between fellow believers, and any written or spoken form of exegesis other than the scriptures themselves. That is ludicrous. As was stated earlier, even "no creed but Christ" is a creed; just left unwritten out of a superstitious idea that to write down what we believe is somehow sacreligious.

Blessings,

Brad
That's great, Brad, I hadn't really thought of it like that exactly, but you explain yourself so well and I understand now. What are your thoughts when two Christians butt heads on one scripture and in fact have diametrically opposite interpretations of them? That is what sort of depresses me. I speak with baptismal regenerationists from my old fellowship and absolutely nothing dissuades them (maybe I'm just not gifted enough mentally to engage them, but I come at them with guns ablazing poring through salvation by grace through faith scriptures with them, and almost without exception the diametrically opposite interpretive lines are drawn).

Of course, one of the most obscure of all scriptures if where they find one of the best places to hang their hats: 1 Peter 3:21. I have read tons of interpretions of this verse by scholars on both sides, and my oh my, it is as diametrically opposite as you can get. It is really quite astonishing, I guess is what I'm saying, how such bifurcation can occur and last for generations.

Blessings to you,
Don
 
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