Grace vs obedience

[da525382]

This is still a stickler for me. I am told by those more in the Arminian camp is that God is pleased only with those who work righteousness, that the entire New Testament is the Law of Christ, that we are to obey it, that is our purpose, I guess.

I clealy see how unscriptural this is, yet even in discussing grace with these people, they bring up the numerous scriptures warning us to watch out, that if God's wrath was poured out on such and such for sinning, how much more it will be poured out on us, how we are to watch out concerning falling away, etc.

Where do grace and obedience meet? Where is the righful place of obedience in our theologic thinking?

 

[Beoga]

Grace meets obedience in Christ.

Having said that, I will leave the duties of providing an answer to someone more learned and wise than myself.

 

[wnwall]

This is still a stickler for me. I am told by those more in the Arminian camp is that God is pleased only with those who work righteousness,

This is true. And Jesus is the only one righteous. The only way God can be pleased with us is if we have Jesus' imputed righteousness, which is received through faith as a free gift of grace.

Where do grace and obedience meet?

I can't beat Beoga's answer.

they bring up the numerous scriptures warning us to watch out, that if God's wrath was poured out on such and such for sinning, how much more it will be poured out on us, how we are to watch out concerning falling away, etc.

We are supposed to watch out and be sure we do not fall away. Jesus said, "The one who endures to the end will be saved" (Matthew 24:13). If someone does not endure to the end, it doesn't mean God's promise to preserve his elect has failed, it means that person wasn't one of the elect. God will preserve his elect, but the saints must persevere or it's evidence they were never saved.

If someone is elect, God will regenerate them, and what it means to be regenerate is to be a new person, to be set free from the bondage of sin, to long after the things of God. That's why Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). It doesn't take a supernatural regeneration to say, "Jesus is Lord." The natural man can make a profession. But the natural man does not want to live like Jesus is Lord. For that it takes a supernatural work of God.

The clearest example of Biblical saving faith to me is the thief who was crucified next to Jesus and was saved on that cross. He didn't do one thing to merit his salvation. He believed and then a few hours later he died. His salvation relied completely on the work of another. But he was regenerated. God created in him a new person, he died to his old self, and if he had been brought down off that cross and given another year of life, he would have lived it.

So it is true when John says, "If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth" (1 John 1:6). But not because our walking in the light is what earns us the favor of God. Instead, it's because walking in the light will happen if we have been regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit. If we do not walk in the light, God has not made us new.

Saving faith isn't merely an intellectual understanding of the gospel. James said, "Even the demons believe—and shudder!" (James 2:19). The type of belief James is talking about here is not saving faith, but an intellectual understanding. They know Jesus is Lord, but they reject his lordship. Similarly, there are many people who say "Lord, Lord," but they don't put their trust in Jesus' promises and obey him, and they will not be saved. If you truly believed Jesus' promises, you would obey him. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

It's really as simple as putting it in terms of any other person. For some reason when we're talking about believing Jesus we've allowed ourselves to think it only has to do with an intellectual understanding. But if I walked up to you and said, "I've got a really great investment deal for you, if you give me $5,000 and in five years I'll give you $5,000,000." And then you say, "I believe you," but don't sell your car gladly so you can pay me, you don't really believe me. So when Jesus says, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth ... but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal," (Matthew 6:19-20) and you don't live in such a way as to store up treasure for yourself in heaven instead of earth, you call him a liar.

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field (Matthew 13:44).

 

[UMP]

This is still a stickler for me. I am told by those more in the Arminian camp is that God is pleased only with those who work righteousness, that the entire New Testament is the Law of Christ, that we are to obey it, that is our purpose, I guess.

I clealy see how unscriptural this is, yet even in discussing grace with these people, they bring up the numerous scriptures warning us to watch out, that if God's wrath was poured out on such and such for sinning, how much more it will be poured out on us, how we are to watch out concerning falling away, etc.

Where do grace and obedience meet? Where is the righful place of obedience in our theologic thinking?

This is one incredibly difficult subject, for me. My problem in understanding this is the fact that the elect child of God is essentially two natures in one. One nature CANNOT stop sinning and the other nature CANNOT sin.

Romans 7:
[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


So, I'm left with the understanding that I have TWO separate natures. How does grace and obedience meet? Obviously, Christ is the center of the new nature, for without him there would be nothing, literally. However, we must go further to find out where the rubber meets the road, if you will. I believe Grace and obedience meet in prayer. Ordained prayer from deep within our soul. A prayer of total absolute helplessness in doing the things of God. When I start to think I can follow his commandments, I fall and fall hard. Only when I give up on myself and trust FULLY in Christ even to perform in me what I cannot do myself, can I (Christ in me) obey. Here is Paul acting out what I'm trying to say:

1 Cortinthians 15:
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[Iosias]

Where do grace and obedience meet? Where is the righful place of obedience in our theologic thinking?

When in doubt get the Confessions and Catechisms out

The Heidelberg Catechism:

Question 88​

Q. What is the true repentance or conversion of man?
A. It is the dying of the old nature and the coming to life of the new.[1]
[1] Rom_6:1-11; 1Co_5:7; 2Co_5:17; Eph_4:22-24; Col_3:5-10.

Question 89​

Q. What is the dying of the old nature?
A. It is to grieve with heartfelt sorrow that we have offended God by our sin, and more and more to hate it and flee from it.[1]
[1] Psa_51:3-4, Psa_51:17; Joe_2:12-13; Rom_8:12-13; 2Co_7:10.

Question 90​

Q. What is the coming to life of the new nature?
A. It is a heartfelt joy in God through Christ,[1] and a love and delight to live according to the will of God in all good works.[2]
[1] Psa_51:8-12; Isa_57:15; Rom_5:1; Rom_14:17. [2] Rom_6:10-11; Gal_2:20.

Question 91​

Q. But what are good works?
A. Only those which are done out of true faith,[1] in accordance with the law of God,[2] and to His glory,[3] and not those based on our own opinion or on precepts of men.[4]
[1] Joh_15:5; Rom_14:23; Heb_11:6. [2] Lev_18:4; 1Sa_15:22; Eph_2:10. [3] 1Co_10:31. [4] Deu_12:32; Isa_29:13; Eze_20:18-19; Mat_15:7-9.

The Belgic Confession:

Article 24 - Man’s Sanctification and Good Works​

We believe that this true faith, worked in man by the hearing of God’s Word and by the operation of the Holy Spirit, regenerates him and makes him a new man. It makes him live a new life and frees him from the slavery of sin. Therefore it is not true that this justifying faith makes man indifferent to living a good and holy life. On the contrary, without it no one would ever do anything out of love for God, but only out of self-love or fear of being condemned. It is therefore impossible for this holy faith to be inactive in man, for we do not speak of an empty faith but of what Scripture calls faith working through love. This faith induces man to apply himself to those works which God has commanded in His Word. These works, proceeding from the good root of faith, are good and acceptable in the sight of God, since they are all sanctified by His grace. Nevertheless, they do not count toward our justification. For through faith in Christ we are justified, even before we do any good works. Otherwise they could not be good any more than the fruit of a tree can be good unless the tree itself is good.

Therefore we do good works, but not for merit. For what could we merit? We are indebted to God, rather than He to us, for the good works we do, since it is He who is at work in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Let us keep in mind what is written: So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, "We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty." Meanwhile we do not deny that God rewards good works, but it is by His grace that He crowns His gifts.

Furthermore, although we do good works, we do not base our salvation on them. We cannot do a single work that is not defiled by our flesh and does not deserve punishment. Even if we could show one good work, the remembrance of one sin is enough to make God reject it. We would then always be in doubt, tossed to and fro without any certainty, and our poor consciences would be constantly tormented, if they did not rely on the merit of the death and passion of our Saviour.

The Westminster Confession:

Chapter 13:
Of Sanctification​

13:1 They, who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection (Act_20:32; Rom_6:5, Rom_6:6; 1Co_6:11; Phi_3:10), by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them (Joh_17:17; Eph_5:26; 2Th_2:13): the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed (Rom_6:6, Rom_6:14), and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified (Rom_8:13; Gal_5:24); and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces (Eph_3:16-19; Col_1:11), to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord (2Co_7:1; Heb_12:14).

13:2 This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man (1Th_5:23); yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part (Rom_7:18, Rom_7:23; Phi_3:12; 1Jo_1:10): whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh (Gal_5:17; 1Pe_2:11).

13:3 In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail (Rom_7:23); yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome(Rom_6:14; Eph_4:15, Eph_4:16; 1Jo_5:4); and so, the saints grow in grace(2Co_3:18; 2Pe_3:18), perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2Co_7:1).

 

[Boxmaker]

This is one incredibly difficult subject, for me. My problem in understanding this is the fact that the elect child of God is essentially two natures in one. One nature CANNOT stop sinning and the other nature CANNOT sin.

I'm Surprised. Your statement of faith says

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass

There is no room for two natures in this statement of faith. What ever you do, think, say or feel was unchangeably ordained long before you were born.

Do you believe that or not?

 

[Boxmaker]

When in doubt get the Confessions and Catechisms out

Doh! Bad advice, some of the worst I've seen. When in doubt, get out your Bible and get on your knees.

 

[Beoga]

Doh! Bad advice, some of the worst I've seen. When in doubt, get out your Bible and get on your knees.

Have you ever read a book on a theological issue or consulted a brother in Christ when you had a question pertaining to the faith?

 

[Iosias]

Doh! Bad advice, some of the worst I've seen. When in doubt, get out your Bible and get on your knees.

The Confessions and Catechisms explain the Scriptures hence their importance.

 

[Boxmaker]

The Confessions and Catechisms explain the Scriptures hence their importance.

No, the Holy Spirit explains the scriptures hence His importance in your life. The catechisms and confessions are mens attempts to put believers back under the law hence their irrelevance.

If you hold your confessions and catechisms in higher regard than the Holy Spirit, and you do because they are the first things you turned to, then it might be worth your time to deeply and prayerfully consider your relationship with Jesus. Honestly, I do not mean any offense. I am concerned that the teachings of men would seem to out-weigh the teachings of God in your life.

May the Peace and Blessings of Christ be with you.

 

[Boxmaker]

Have you ever read a book on a theological issue or consulted a brother in Christ when you had a question pertaining to the faith?

At the urgings of GrinningDwarf, I read Pink's book Chosen by God. I found it less than helpful and contradictory to the Bible. When questions about faith arise that I discuss with a brother, that discussion ALWAYS takes place with open Bibles. The use of confessions and catechisms to explain scripture is sill at best and dangerous at worst. We find that scripture explains itself.

It has also been my experience (ex catholic) that confessions and catechisms are used to force scripture to fit within the pre-defined bounds of a particular religion (like Catholics) or point of view (like Calvinists).

 

[wnwall]

We do not put the teachings of the confessions and catechisms above the inspired Scriptures. However, this is a Reformed room and the original poster asked for some help in understanding some things from the perspective of the Reformed interpretation of Scripture. It can be assumed that the original poster has already agreed that the teachings of the Reformed confessions and catechisms line up with that of Scripture, and thus are useful and trustworthy as guides to understanding the Scriptures. It, therefore, makes perfect sense to suggest to the original poster to look in the confessions and catechisms and see what they say about the inspired Scriptures in the hopes that they can shed some light on a particularly hard to understand subject.

Or do you think that you are the only person who the Holy Spirit has helped interpret the Scriptures? No, there have been many saints before you who the Holy Spirit helped, and their input, while not infallible, is very valuable as a reference.

Perhaps your experience as an ex-Catholic has led you to believe we think the catechisms and confessions are authoritative? I do not know if that's what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about their catechisms, but the Reformed churches do not teach their catechisms are authoritative, inerrant, or any such thing. Sola Scriptura was one of the mottos of the Reformation, and the Reformed churches have not forgotten it.

 

[Boxmaker]

We do not put the teachings of the confessions and catechisms above the inspired Scriptures. However, this is a Reformed room and the original poster asked for some help in understanding some things from the perspective of the Reformed interpretation of Scripture. It can be assumed that the original poster has already agreed that the teachings of the Reformed confessions and catechisms line up with that of Scripture, and thus are useful and trustworthy as guides to understanding the Scriptures. It, therefore, makes perfect sense to suggest to the original poster to look in the confessions and catechisms and see what they say about the inspired Scriptures in the hopes that they can shed some light on a particularly hard to understand subject.

Or do you think that you are the only person who the Holy Spirit has helped interpret the Scriptures? No, there have been many saints before you who the Holy Spirit helped, and their input, while not infallible, is very valuable as a reference.

Perhaps your experience as an ex-Catholic has led you to believe we think the catechisms and confessions are authoritative? I do not know if that's what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about their catechisms, but the Reformed churches do not teach their catechisms are authoritative, inerrant, or any such thing. Sola Scriptura was one of the mottos of the Reformation, and the Reformed churches have not forgotten it.

If you do not consider these documents to be authoritative, inerrant or any such thing, why bother to look at them when you have inspired scripture that you can turn to? If they are not authoritative, inerrant or any such thing, then why limit yourself to just the documents embraced by the reformed church? Is it not possible that the catechisms and confessions of other traditions are equally informed? You said it yourself, there have been theologians that have been inspired and helped by the Holy Spirit and many of those theologians do not hold a reformed view?

 

[Iosias]

No, the Holy Spirit explains the scriptures hence His importance in your life. The catechisms and confessions are mens attempts to put believers back under the law hence their irrelevance.

The Holy Ghost has revealled the truth to the Church through her Creeds, Confessions and Catechisms. These are the collected wisdom of the Church through the centuries and we neglect them at our peril.

1 Timothy 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

 

[Boxmaker]

The Holy Ghost has revealled the truth to the Church through her Creeds, Confessions and Catechisms. These are the collected wisdom of the Church through the centuries and we neglect them at our peril.

1 Timothy 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Jesus revealed the truth to His Church by coming to us as a human and teaching us. We warned about adding to or taking away from God's Word. We must be extremely careful that the creeds, confessions and catechisms we hold so dear do not contradict what Jesus and His Apostles have given us. They frequently do.

 

[da525382]

I am the original poster and yes, my presumption was that the reformed catechisms are authoritative, but not scripture.

 

[xapis]

At the urgings of GrinningDwarf, I read Pink's book Chosen by God. I found it less than helpful and contradictory to the Bible.

You mean Sproul's book? Perhaps you weren't paying very much attention.

 

[Boxmaker]

You mean Sproul's book? Perhaps you weren't paying very much attention.

Sorry, it was Sproul's book. I paid close attention and discussed it with GrinningDwarf. I still find the book to be full of contradictions both with itself and with the Bible.

I have started two threads within this sub-forum in an attempt to understand the Calvinist point of view. To date, i have been utterly unable to get past the contradictions in the Westminster confession (specifically part 3) to even begin to understand the rest of the Calvinist theology.

 

[xapis]

Try reading God of Promise by Michael Horton. There's much more to Reformed theology than just TULIP.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Doh! Bad advice, some of the worst I've seen. When in doubt, get out your Bible and get on your knees.

The only problem with that is that we usually approach the Bible with our mindset already influenced by Enlightenment philosophies on human autonomy...which are wrong and will strongly affect our theology.