bekkilyn

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Of course we are talking about the normal, not the exception. Why are most men fixers?
Why are most women more naturally nurturing? Now, my mom could fix stuff. But she had to, really. She had to learn to be practical because that was what her life demanded. I can be nurturing when I need to, but my wife is so much better at it naturally. If something wasn't generally true, it would not be an issue that constantly needs addressed in relationships.
Why do men behave the way they do? They're wired to be 'emotional fixers'

I do not agree that what you consider to be exceptions ARE exceptions. For example, there are numerous cases where women continue a relationship with someone who is incompatible (or abusive) because they believe that they have the ability to "fix" him. It's extremely common, and that's just one example.

Not to mention that if any of these things were actually biological, there would be *no* exceptions barring disability or brain damage because men would *have* to be a certain way and women would *have* to be a certain way (like with physical body parts), but that's just not the case. Many men behave the way they do because they are *conditioned* to do so, and the same with women. Remove all of the conditioning and you'll simply have a person inside without all of the cultural baggage.

Once you can break free of the baggage to some degree, a whole new world opens up and you can really start seeing people as unique *people* without the false assumptions and stereotypes.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Interesting question. Do you believe there are average psychological differences between the genders?

I think there's probably some very generalized ones that resulted from evolution. Things like "unafraid of conflict with strangers" or "willingness to face rejection" might, on average, show up more often in men than women. This is, however, part of a wide spectrum of characteristics that any man or woman can have to varying degrees at various times in their lives.


Are there moments in your life, no matter how brief where you feel "manly"?

Well sure...I suppose...but the only ones I can think of are related to the act of sex. When one is using one's equipment in a way consistent with one's gender....I can understand the connection to "manliness". It's probably also related directly to the feeling of being desirable "as a man" too.

I don't think it's what you mean though.

Perhaps using your dominate strength to defend a lady?

I really only have one instance of using violence in that way and at the time...I can't say it felt any different from using violence in other circumstances.

As far as being a disembodied brain in a vat. Depends on the circumstances. Are you able to communicate with others?

Sure.

I would guess you would still act like your masculine self, but your brain would have no way of contextualizing it.

That's the thing....what would possibly be "masculine" about it? Can you think of an example?

I would wager a guess that if we were all disembodied brains floating in a vat with no prior memory yet able to communicate with one another that we'd quickly come up with "male" and "female" categories and we'd identify with one or the other. Or both or none, depending on where you are in the gender spectrum.

Do you really? Without the body associated with "masculinity" or "femininity"....why would we come up with those categories and how?

I don't know if I'd be able to directly connect my thoughts, feelings, or desires to those concepts without the associated body parts and the context they lend.

I believe our physical bodies and psychology are heavily intertwined. The way we look dictates how we're treated by others. Masculinity and femininity in my opinion can be summed down to neoteny. Women on average are more neotenous than men. They retain more childlike traits until adulthood. Including a higher pitched voice and tear ducts that enable for more crying. While men tend to have harsher more authoritative voices, wider shoulders, greater height and more muscle. Gender roles can largely be summed up at as women having a childlike role and men have a more parental role.

I think you're using that word in a way I don't understand. That's partly why I took so long to respond.

I mean, is a higher pitched voice really a neotenous characteristic if adult females have, on average, a higher pitched voice? Simply sharing a characteristic with children doesn't automatically make it neotenous. Babies and very young children have a tendency towards exploration and risk taking....but it's due to a lack of experience. I wouldn't necessarily say a man or woman who has a tendency towards those things is "childlike".

We've been historically expected to be financially and physically responsible with women. While women have generally been the role of the damsel and victim (something feminism really seems to want to fight.. lol)

Do you think that's social or a product of genetics?

Growing up I have been called confusing when it comes to gender expression. Many people saying I act feminine yet other times hyper masculine. Strangely I have not been really bullied for this, I owe this due to being highly noetenous for a man with European origin. Something that really opened my eyes was when I read a post from a man who looked hyper masculine. Over six feet tall, with huge muscles. He said despite liking the attention he received from women he wished he was shorter with less muscle mass. I thought to myself, hmm.. while I hate how my height and low muscle mass hurts my chances in the dating market I am not sure if I would like having his physique in my overall life. I would certainly be treated differently for it, and not in a way that my mind would probably be content with.

Don't you think guys who act "stereotypically male" are generally insecure/putting up a front? I tend to see it as an act that attempts to hide insecurities.

I would say that generally speaking, the overwhelming majority of men have several characteristics that go against the stereotype. I don't really care about team sports....at all. It's one of those things that other guys tend to find odd in me. I have other examples as well.

Perhaps you would start developing psychological problems if you were to wake up as a woman and start interacting with the world? And have more of a yearning to express yourself as a man?

What does that mean though? Express yourself as a man?
 
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renniks

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I do not agree that what you consider to be exceptions ARE exceptions. For example, there are numerous cases where women continue a relationship with someone who is incompatible (or abusive) because they believe that they have the ability to "fix" him. It's extremely common, and that's just one example.

Not to mention that if any of these things were actually biological, there would be *no* exceptions barring disability or brain damage because men would *have* to be a certain way and women would *have* to be a certain way (like with physical body parts), but that's just not the case. Many men behave the way they do because they are *conditioned* to do so, and the same with women. Remove all of the conditioning and you'll simply have a person inside without all of the cultural baggage.

Once you can break free of the baggage to some degree, a whole new world opens up and you can really start seeing people as unique *people* without the false assumptions and stereotypes.
Again, science has proven our brains and DNA are very different. The differences are not illusions.
 
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bekkilyn

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Again, science has proven our brains and DNA are very different. The differences are not illusions.

Untrue. There have been no significant differences proven to be the case. Though there are some minor differences, typically related to reproduction and body/muscle size, our brains and DNA are not VERY different. People are people with all the same needs and emotions, despite those of you who keep claiming that men and women are entirely different species. Men are not from Mars and Women are not from Venus.

Furthermore, our brains are not fixed and continue to develop in many ways throughout our lives.
 
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Tom 1

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Untrue. There have been no significant differences proven to be the case. Though there are some minor differences, typically related to reproduction and body/muscle size, our brains and DNA are not VERY different. People are people with all the same needs and emotions, despite those of you who keep claiming that men and women are entirely different species. Men are not from Mars and Women are not from Venus.

Yes, but that is the converse assumption, because little is known then we must be the same.
 
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bekkilyn

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Yes, but that is the converse assumption, because little is known then we must be the same.

I have never once claimed that we are all the same, but our differences are not because we are "a gender" but because we are unique human beings. Our differences are on the individual level.
 
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renniks

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Untrue. There have been no significant differences proven to be the case. Though there are some minor differences, typically related to reproduction and body/muscle size, our brains and DNA are not VERY different. People are people with all the same needs and emotions, despite those of you who keep claiming that men and women are entirely different species. Men are not from Mars and Women are not from Venus.

Furthermore, our brains are not fixed and continue to develop in many ways throughout our lives.
Nobody says we are different species. Male and female animals act very differently too.

But a recent paper claims that beyond just genes on X and Y, a full third of our genome is behaving very differently in men and women. It's not just that we have a few different genes.
 
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bekkilyn

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Nobody says we are different species. Male and female animals act very differently too.

But a recent paper claims that beyond just genes on X and Y, a full third of our genome is behaving very differently in men and women. It's not just that we have a few different genes.

Per the article:
Finally, the vast majority of sex-specific genes we found are associated with the reproductive system.

Nothing whatsoever about the person on the inside, the spirit or soul of a human being. Or are you really arguing that who we are is determined and driven entirely by our physical biology, particularly the parts involved with reproduction? (Once our body stops working, we no longer exist as if we never existed?) Because it is those parts that are the deciding factor as to whether we are considered male or female. Our essential selves are no different regardless of the physical bodies we are currently wearing. They are only temporary just like the clothing we may wear each day.
 
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renniks

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Per the article:


Nothing whatsoever about the person on the inside, the spirit or soul of a human being. Or are you really arguing that who we are is determined and driven entirely by our physical biology, particularly the parts involved with reproduction? (Once our body stops working, we no longer exist as if we never existed?) Because it is those parts that are the deciding factor as to whether we are considered male or female. Our essential selves are no different regardless of the physical bodies we are currently wearing. They are only temporary just like the clothing we may wear each day.
You think our DNA doesn't affect our behavior or thought life? Everything about us is connected.
 
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bekkilyn

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You think our DNA doesn't affect our behavior or thought life? Everything about us is connected.

I simply do not believe it is neatly divided up between male and female, but that our major uniqueness exists on an individual level and is not therefore based on false and harmful stereotypes that are helpful to practically no one.

For example, I don't look at you as a man or a woman but as a unique individual I know currently as "renniks". If I were to know you in "real life", I'd view you as a person by the name of your name. Perhaps you have some qualities that our culture views as "masculine" and others that our culture views as "feminine" but I would see you as *you* are and not as some gender stereotype because each person is a unique and beloved creation from God that he's made like no one else alive on the earth, who has ever been alive, or who will ever be alive in the future.
 
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renniks

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I simply do not believe it is neatly divided up between male and female, but that our major uniqueness exists on an individual level and is not therefore based on false and harmful stereotypes that are helpful to practically no one.

For example, I don't look at you as a man or a woman but as a unique individual I know currently as "renniks". If I were to know you in "real life", I'd view you as a person by the name of your name. Perhaps you have some qualities that our culture views as "masculine" and others that our culture views as "feminine" but I would see you as *you* are and not as some gender stereotype because each person is a unique and beloved creation from God that he's made like no one else alive on the earth, who has ever been alive, or who will ever be alive in the future.
Yeah, right. This gender bending nonsense is so far from the Biblical narrative, I really can't believe it's being argued for on a Christian forum. God created them Male and Female. There's not third gender, not mistaking what God intended. And the only times I don't think of someone as male or female is when I can't tell which they are, which means they are probably trying to escape God's design for them. It's called sin.
 
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bekkilyn

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Yeah, right. This gender bending nonsense is so far from the Biblical narrative, I really can't believe it's being argued for on a Christian forum. God created them Male and Female. There's not third gender, not mistaking what God intended. And the only times I don't think of someone as male or female is when I can't tell which they are, which means they are probably trying to escape God's design for them. It's called sin.

God created them male and female, their biological sex, with the appropriate physical parts, for the purpose of going forth and multiplying. "Gender" is an imaginary construct made up by human beings. In fact, I would argue that we currently have as many "genders" as we do people living on the earth, since every human being is unique and unlike any other person. The only reason to be concerned about a person's biological sex is if we are desiring to create children with them. Obviously, if you are trying to create a child with someone who does not have the appropriate parts, it's probably not going to work and you would have to fall back on the stork bringing you that bundle of joy instead. (And God created storks too!)
 
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renniks

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God created them male and female, their biological sex, with the appropriate physical parts, for the purpose of going forth and multiplying. "Gender" is an imaginary construct made up by human beings. In fact, I would argue that we currently have as many "genders" as we do people living on the earth, since every human being is unique and unlike any other person. The only reason to be concerned about a person's biological sex is if we are desiring to create children with them. Obviously, if you are trying to create a child with someone who does not have the appropriate parts, it's probably not going to work and you would have to fall back on the stork bringing you that bundle of joy instead. (And God created storks too!)
The Bible says a lot more than that about the difference between men and women. It actually specifically says the woman was created as Man's helper. Which is why overly controlling women have resulted from the fall. Sin always reverses or distorts what God designed for good.
 
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bekkilyn

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The Bible says a lot more than that about the difference between men and women. It actually specifically says the woman was created as Man's helper. Which is why overly controlling women have resulted from the fall. Sin always reverses or distorts what God designed for good.

A Suitable Helper (in Hebrew) | Marg Mowczko

Also, this has nothing whatsoever to do with any differences between men and women. Women and men are both tasked to work together equally in stewardship of God's creation, and there is no breakdown of particular roles tasked to either of them as to how they do it. In a larger sense, God's message is that human beings are to be in community with one another just the same as God is community (represented by the Trinity). People are people regardless of gender, race, disability, or some other thing. We are all unique as God created us to be, and to squeeze us all into some sort of restrictive and imaginary gender box is a disservice to us and to God who created all people in his image.
 
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