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Good 'OL LCMS

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DaSeminarian

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You and I both know that altar/pulpit fellowship between the LCMS and the ELCA will never happen until the ELCA gives up women's ordination, homosexual tolerance, support of abortion on demand, and a number of other things that we all know they aren't going to do. And the LCMS will never compromise on any of these things.

I think it is an appeal for show. Show that there are some things that the two synods can work together. It gives the ELCA hope. I don't know either Nafzger or Kieschnick though I have met them and I must say that the press one gets in certain circles is not always flattering. I heard Nafzger once last fall and felt like he was just appeasing the crowd at FW with his talk. Matt Harrison though is one of the most confessional people and used to be Pastor at Zion Lutheran in downtown FW before taking his current post.

Kieschnick is a real people pleaser and baby kisser.

I hope that you are correct Rev. Otherwise I am going to seminary in the LCMS for nothing.
 
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RadMan

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You and I both know that altar/pulpit fellowship between the LCMS and the ELCA will never happen until the ELCA gives up women's ordination, homosexual tolerance, support of abortion on demand, and a number of other things that we all know they aren't going to do. And the LCMS will never compromise on any of these things.
I agree but what prompts ongoing dialog with ELCA who are at the extreem edge of their interpretation of Lutheranism? The synods that are closes to us in confessional belief are not as willing to talk or even talk at all as ELCA. If they are so heterodox then why does LCMS even bother? How do you think this looks like to the average layperson? All it does is give more credibility to the ELCA stance and makes their aberrant behavior more tolerable because of association with LCMS. Just joining in with their ministries makes ELCA's stance more plausible.This is just another hint that LCMS is more open to unionistic direction that has been generated by Behnke and supported by Kieshnick.

It makes it easier for the congregations and pastors to slid into complacency if the synods sets an example.

Another example is the situation that happened at FT Wayne in August where The Society of Holy Trinity (a unionistic organization for any Lutheran denom) held a seminar at Kremer Chapel on campus with ELCA and LCMS in joint divine service with communion. Seems there were also WELS pastors present but don't know if they participated. Eveyone that was involved in the incident is using plausible deniability that it was the other person's over site on the incident and that neither one of them was fully informed on what the conference entailed.
http://www.societyholytrinity.org/2007generalretreat.htm
 
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DaRev

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I hope that you are correct Rev. Otherwise I am going to seminary in the LCMS for nothing.

No, it isn't for nothing. If the Synod ever did decide to go that route it would fracture and we would see a new confessional synod rise from the ashes. There are enough of us that would leave that would cause the LCMS to basically cease to exist as it's currently known.

I, for one, am leary of this restructuring that they are considering. It would mean the end for the English and SELC districts, which would be a shame. The SELC could void the merger agreement if they wanted, but I don't know if that would indeed happen. There are murmurs of it from time to time.
 
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DaSeminarian

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No, it isn't for nothing. If the Synod ever did decide to go that route it would fracture and we would see a new confessional synod rise from the ashes. There are enough of us that would leave that would cause the LCMS to basically cease to exist as it's currently known.

I, for one, am leary of this restructuring that they are considering. It would mean the end for the English and SELC districts, which would be a shame. The SELC could void the merger agreement if they wanted, but I don't know if that would indeed happen. There are murmurs of it from time to time.


The problem is that you have so much vested in your retirement that if you would leave that you would lose everything and the new synod would have to establish new benefits for the pastors so they have Health insurance available. My faith is definitely more important than those things, but they are a consideration.
 
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RadMan

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007
Congress wants to see records from six flashy televangelists
Jenny Jarvie / Los Angeles Times

ATLANTA -- In the Rev. Dollar's chapel last week, a man in jeans and a
baseball jersey bowed his head and opened his wallet. In front of him, a
woman in nursing scrubs leaned on her Bible to write a check. And when the
congregation stood up in prayer, some -- speaking in tongues -- waved
collection envelopes in the air.

Creflo A. Dollar, senior pastor of World Changers Church International,
preaches that God will reward the faithful with material riches. It is a
gospel that has won the flamboyant preacher a 25,000-strong congregation --
and a Rolls-Royce, a multimillion-dollar mansion and a private Gulfstream
III jet.

Now a Senate committee is investigating whether Dollar and leaders of
several other mega-churches have illegally used donations to fund opulent
lifestyles.

In a controversial move, which some contend could violate the separation of
church and state, Sen. Charles E. Grassley, R-Iowa, ranking member of the
Senate Finance Committee, has sent letters to six mega-churches, including
Dollar's in College Park, requesting that they hand over records of
salaries, expense accounts, credit cards, cars and airplanes.

"Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem on a donkey," Grassley said. "Do
these ministers really need Bentleys and Rolls-Royces to spread the gospel?"

Grassley has some specific concerns. For example, he wants Paula and Randy
White, pastors of the Without Walls International Church in Tampa, Fla., to
document any tax-exempt cosmetic surgery. And he wants Joyce Meyer, who runs
Joyce Meyer Ministries from Fenton, Mo., to explain the tax-exempt purpose
of a $23,000 "commode with marble top."

Some of the ministers, who are not legally required to respond, have agreed
to submit their tax records by Dec. 6. Dollar, however, has taken a stand,
announcing that he will consult with lawyers to determine if the request
infringes on constitutional protections of religious liberty.

"It could affect the privacy of every community church in America," he said.

Scholars have long raised ethical and religious concerns about televangelist
ministers who preach the prosperity gospel -- the idea that material riches
are an expression of God's favor.

Part of the difficulty, observers say, is that tax rules have not caught up
with the fact that many ministries across the U.S. now operate as
corporations. Mega-church pastors run multimillion-dollar enterprises,
selling not just Bibles, DVDs and paintings, but banquet facilities, gym
memberships and nutrition classes. Some refer to themselves not just as
pastors, but as CEOs.


"They are taking market principles, setting themselves up as corporations
and yet they don't want to be taxed, they don't want to have
accountability," said Fredrick Harris, a professor of political science at
Columbia University.

"They are blurring the line between profit and nonprofit."

While most nonprofits have to file IRS 990 forms detailing salary and
expenses, religious organizations are exempt. Mega-church followers say
those who criticize their pastors' perks do not understand their symbolic
value.

"Yes, a minister turns heads when he drives a Bentley," said Rep. Gerald
Mangham, D-Ga., a member of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia,
one of the ministries being investigated. "But that's good. It's important
for kids to see you don't have to sell drugs to drive a nice car."

Connie Cotton, 41, a longtime member of World Changers, said, "We give to
our pastor because he's a true man of God. He needs a jet to go around the
world and preach the gospel."
 
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RadMan

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The problem is that you have so much vested in your retirement that if you would leave that you would lose everything and the new synod would have to establish new benefits for the pastors so they have Health insurance available. My faith is definitely more important than those things, but they are a consideration.
hummmm........I've heard that a few times before from pastors that didn't want to "rock the boat". I don't know if that's good enough reason to stay in a heterodox environment. Of course I've also heard that from ministers that wanted to stay and fight.
 
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DaRev

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The problem is that you have so much vested in your retirement that if you would leave that you would lose everything and the new synod would have to establish new benefits for the pastors so they have Health insurance available. My faith is definitely more important than those things, but they are a consideration.

That's neither a fair or accurate statement.
First, I have only been in the ministry for three years, so there is little vested in retirement through Concordia. Besides, in lieu of housing equity, the church pays quarterly into a 403B account, which is another retirement fund that goes with me wherever I go. There's not a lot in it right now, but it's not tied to the Synod.
Second, if the LCMS were to undergo a major split as would be the case if it were to compromise that much to enter altar/pulpit fellowship with the ELCA, all those things would need to be resolved. The synod would basically cease to exist at that point.
 
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DaSeminarian

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That's neither a fair or accurate statement.
First, I have only been in the ministry for three years, so there is little vested in retirement through Concordia. Besides, in lieu of housing equity, the church pays quarterly into a 403B account, which is another retirement fund that goes with me wherever I go. There's not a lot in it right now, but it's not tied to the Synod.
Second, if the LCMS were to undergo a major split as would be the case if it were to compromise that much to enter altar/pulpit fellowship with the ELCA, all those things would need to be resolved. The synod would basically cease to exist at that point.

I wasn't meaning to be unfair, but it was probably an inaccurate statement.
 
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LutheranChick

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007
Congress wants to see records from six flashy televangelists
Jenny Jarvie / Los Angeles Times

ATLANTA -- In the Rev. Dollar's chapel last week, a man in jeans and a
baseball jersey bowed his head and opened his wallet. In front of him, a
woman in nursing scrubs leaned on her Bible to write a check. And when the
congregation stood up in prayer, some -- speaking in tongues -- waved
collection envelopes in the air.

Creflo A. Dollar, senior pastor of World Changers Church International,
preaches that God will reward the faithful with material riches. It is a
gospel that has won the flamboyant preacher a 25,000-strong congregation --
and a Rolls-Royce, a multimillion-dollar mansion and a private Gulfstream
III jet.

Now a Senate committee is investigating whether Dollar and leaders of
several other mega-churches have illegally used donations to fund opulent
lifestyles.

In a controversial move, which some contend could violate the separation of
church and state, Sen. Charles E. Grassley, R-Iowa, ranking member of the
Senate Finance Committee, has sent letters to six mega-churches, including
Dollar's in College Park, requesting that they hand over records of
salaries, expense accounts, credit cards, cars and airplanes.

"Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem on a donkey," Grassley said. "Do
these ministers really need Bentleys and Rolls-Royces to spread the gospel?"

Grassley has some specific concerns. For example, he wants Paula and Randy
White, pastors of the Without Walls International Church in Tampa, Fla., to
document any tax-exempt cosmetic surgery. And he wants Joyce Meyer, who runs
Joyce Meyer Ministries from Fenton, Mo., to explain the tax-exempt purpose
of a $23,000 "commode with marble top."

Some of the ministers, who are not legally required to respond, have agreed
to submit their tax records by Dec. 6. Dollar, however, has taken a stand,
announcing that he will consult with lawyers to determine if the request
infringes on constitutional protections of religious liberty.

"It could affect the privacy of every community church in America," he said.

Scholars have long raised ethical and religious concerns about televangelist
ministers who preach the prosperity gospel -- the idea that material riches
are an expression of God's favor.

Part of the difficulty, observers say, is that tax rules have not caught up
with the fact that many ministries across the U.S. now operate as
corporations. Mega-church pastors run multimillion-dollar enterprises,
selling not just Bibles, DVDs and paintings, but banquet facilities, gym
memberships and nutrition classes. Some refer to themselves not just as
pastors, but as CEOs.

"They are taking market principles, setting themselves up as corporations
and yet they don't want to be taxed, they don't want to have
accountability," said Fredrick Harris, a professor of political science at
Columbia University.

"They are blurring the line between profit and nonprofit."

While most nonprofits have to file IRS 990 forms detailing salary and
expenses, religious organizations are exempt. Mega-church followers say
those who criticize their pastors' perks do not understand their symbolic
value.

"Yes, a minister turns heads when he drives a Bentley," said Rep. Gerald
Mangham, D-Ga., a member of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia,
one of the ministries being investigated. "But that's good. It's important
for kids to see you don't have to sell drugs to drive a nice car."

Connie Cotton, 41, a longtime member of World Changers, said, "We give to
our pastor because he's a true man of God. He needs a jet to go around the
world and preach the gospel."

Did you mean to post this in this thread?
 
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LutheranChick

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More so for the ELCA than for LCMS but they do have some in the LCMS. There not as big as the televangelist's but they're trying.

Ahh, I see. I don't think anyone even in ELCA is driving around Rolls Royces or sitting on $28,000 commodes - yet, but then again, you never know....
 
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RadMan

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Ahh, I see. I don't think anyone even in ELCA is driving around Rolls Royces or sitting on $28,000 commodes - yet, but then again, you never know....
The idea of the post was that these mega churches are setting up themselves as a corporation but still under the not-for-profit status. Not for profit means just that. Someone is profiting off the donations. I just don't think that the ELCA and possibly some LCMS have been in it long enough to generate that much money so as of now they are probably not under scrutiny. It's fairly new concept with Lutherans.
 
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RadMan

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The CEO concept has it's beginnings in the PLI institute and was influenced by Willowcreek. Looking at the site makes anyone think that program is beneficial for any church growth. Ever though they don't mention it they promote a hierarchy within the congregation that starts with the pastor as the "head" of the church, BOD and supporting boards and the laity only gets input twice a year on church matters. Like a corporation.
http://www.pli-leader.org/

I don't know what the LCMS Constitution says on the church organization matter but traditionally each church writes it's own. The standard constitution of most Lutheran churches has been that the pastor is given a call to administer the sacraments baptism and the spiritual health of the congregation. The elders also have the obligation of:
The Board of Elders shall have authority and responsibility for the spiritual welfare and activities of the congregational members, individually and corporately.
The Board of Elders shall serve as special assistants to the pastor(s), supporting them with prayer, helping them with special problems in his ministry; and concerning itself with the spiritual, emotional and physical health and welfare of the pastor(s) and their families.
The Board of Elders shall help the pastor(s) cultivate a spirit of harmony among the congregation members.
The Board of Elders shall be responsible for the proper conduct of public congregational worship services.

There are actually many more responsibilities accorded the elders in the LCMS.

The voters meeting takes care of the rest of the church functions as far as finances, upkeep , missions, setting up comities etc. The pastor can attend the meeting but has not voting privileges.

Congregation polity has done this since the inception of the LOCMS and even before that because it's origin is the Bible.

PLE changes the whole organization and take the governance away form the laity and gives it basically to the pastor and the BODs under him. The laity have minimal say-so except twice a year when a meeting is called.

Does the LCMS acidly support this--Yes. Heres a letter form LCMS on the issue.

"Dear XXXXXXXX:
Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
President Kieschnick has been and is an outspoken proponent of PLI. PLI participants are eligible for "wrap around" credit for a Doctor of Ministry degree at both of our seminaries.
With regard to your other question, please see President Kieschnick's response to your concern under 'FAQs' at www.lcms.org/president.
May God's grace, mercy, and peace rest upon you.
Rev. Jon Braunersreuther
Senior Assistant to the President
The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
1333 S. Kirkwood Road


I know I'm goin got get some "comments" about content but in essence it is factual.
 
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RadMan

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Quotes from Walther’s “Church
and Ministry”

“This is to be understood in the sense not only that the church has the
power to excommunicate impenitent sinners but also that the congregation has
the supreme authority in all church matters such as reproof, church
discipline, divisions, judging doctrine, and appointing pastors, to mention
only these things” ("Church and Ministry." C.F.W. Walther, 1851, CPH 1987,
page 343)

“Why then should the Scriptures of the prophets and apostles be so obscure
and perplexing that ignorant people should not be able to judge doctrine
from them? Without doubt the prophets and apostles wrote nothing else than
what they proclaimed with their living voice.” ("Church and Ministry"
C.F.W. Walther, 1851, CPH 1987, Page 344)

“Indeed, ‘all the multitude’ of believers (Acts 15:12) were together and on
the basis of a common vote the resolution was adopted.” ("Church and
Ministry" C.F.W. Walther, 1851, CPH 1987, Page 346)

2001 LCMS Convention Resolution 7-17A Adopted yes: 791 no: 291)

Whereas, The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) has experienced during
its history confusion with regard to the doctrine of church and ministry:
and

Whereas, Dr. D. F. W. Walther addressed this confusion in 1851 through his
“Theses on Church and Ministry,” which were subsequently declared to be the
position of the LCMS in 1851; and

Whereas, The book “The Voice of our Church on the Question of Church and
Ministry,” by Dr. C. F. W. Walther, was published in 1852. The LCMS in
convention declared this book to be the pure doctrine (reine Lehre) of
church and ministry; therefore be it

Resolved, That the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod meeting in convention in
the year of our Lord 2001 affirm the above referenced writings of C. F. W.
Walther as the definitive statement under Holy Scripture and the Lutheran
Confessions of the Synod’s understanding on the subject of church and
ministry; and be if further

Resolved, That the LCMS in convention reaffirm the decision of the 1852
convention in recognizing C. F. W. Walther’s book, “The Voice of Our Church
on the Question of Church and Ministry,” as the official position of the
LCMS; and be it further

Resolved, That all pastors, professors, teachers of the church, and
congregations honor and uphold the resolutions of the Synod as regards the
official position of our Synod on church and ministry and teach in
accordance with them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
The CTCR overruled the above resolutuinss, usurped the Convention’s authority
to judge doctrine, and claims to correct the Synod’s founder.

In 2001 the LCMS Convention voted by more than 73% to reaffirm “Church and
Ministry,” written in 1851 by the Synod’s founder, C. F. W. Walther, and
published as the official position of the LCMS in 1852. In the folowing response Hartung never
bothers to inform the layman that there ever was or is an official position
on “Church and Ministry,” Voters’ Assemblies, or congregational structure in
the LCMS.

Instead he quotes the CTCR document about women from 2005 that suddenly
wipes out a Synodical resolution that was adopted by more than a 2/3
majority four years earlier. Hartung continues by writing: “In fact, the New Testament does not give
any mandates regarding the polity of a congregation or Synod.” Yet the
Convention voted in 2001 that Walther’s book is the doctrine of the Bible
and the Lutheran Confessions for church and ministry and that all pastors
and teachers should uphold this book as the official position of the LCMS.

Dr Bruce Hartung's response to the questions about congregations changing
their constitution in opposition to the afore mentioned resolution passed
in 2001 convention. And his support of opposing the resolution......Or
sidestepping it anyway.

“Pressure Points (November)”
With Dr. Bruce Hartung
Q: Our pastor is encouraging our congregation to change its constitution so
that we can have a completely new style of governing structure.
Some of us are concerned that it is too much of a departure from our
traditional way of doing things and may even be unbiblical. We also fear
that the pastor will become a CEO instead of a shepherd, and that he will
not have time to concentrate on Word and Sacrament ministry.
Could you offer us any advice concerning this matter?
A: Let me begin with a word from the LCMS Commission on Theology and Church
Relations, which might be helpful:
“Congregational polity is an adiaphoron, neither commanded nor forbidden in
Holy Scripture. The New Testament is not an encyclopedia that answers all
possible questions. One cannot expect these ancient documents to address
the polity questions that arise 2,000 years later. In fact, the New
Testament does not give any mandates regarding the polity of a congregation
or Synod. How a congregation sets up its daily working arrangements and
organizational structure is left to the discretion of human reason and
sanctified common sense. How many committees it has and how each committee
operates are matters that belong to the area of Christian freedom.
“ ... A key question is this: What type of polity and organizational
structure will support and reinforce doctrine and practice as taught by the
Scriptures?” (“Appendix B, The Service of Women in Congregational Offices of
Executive Director/President or Assistant Director/Vice President,” The
Service of Women in Congregational and Synodical Offices, CTCR, January
2005, p. 28).
Thus, in one clear sense there is no organization of the congregation that
is scripturally commended. This could very well mean that congregations
might organize themselves in whatever way best serves their ministry.
In other words, it is a congregation's choice whether there is a president,
executive director, voters assembly, board of elders, or board of directors.

And, likely, there are organizational structures and ideas from the
so-called business community that might be helpful. In fact, I would
encourage congregations and other church organizations to consider helpful
models and suggestions from the secular world. But through it all, such
secular models must be disciplined according to the Scriptures.
We in the church all wear a theological or scriptural lens through which we
look. I believe that all organizational polity must meet the test of
spiritual discipline and proclamation of the Gospel.
Whatever your congregation is considering organizationally might very well
be a departure from tradition. However, it is difficult to see what
specific part of a governing structure is unbiblical unless it fosters a
departure from biblical doctrines.
In the end, what is your overriding concern?
It appears to me that you want to protect the Office of the Holy Ministry.
You want your pastor to remain the “shepherd” of the flock, the public
minister of Word and Sacrament.
If that is your intent, congregational polity needs to be developed to help
that happen. It should answer the question, “How will this polity help us
be more faithful proclaimers of the Gospel and evangelists to the world
around us?”
New forms and structures might very well be indicated. But they should
enable a clear proclamation of the Gospel.
To quote a colleague of mine on this issue, “No structure is perfect,
because sinners serve in it. We are free to try new structures and even to
fail, because of the Gospel which brings us forgiveness, confident that the
future of the church is ultimately in the capable hands of our Risen
Savior.”
Rev. Bruce M. Hartung, Ph.D., is dean of Ministerial Formation for Concordia
Seminary, St. Louis. He can be reached at hartungb@csl.edu.
Posted Nov. 1, 2007
http://www.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=12715


Does Doctor Dale Meyer, President of the St. Louis
Seminary, President Kieschnick, and the Council of District Presidents fully
support Hartung’s statements?

These Synodical officials endorse pastors as CEO’s and “encourage
congregations and other church organizations to consider helpful models and
suggestions from the secular world.” as Hartung writes below. They don’t
care if the church is modeled after the world instead of pure doctrine as
originally taught by the LCMS.

Meanwhile, in November of 2007, United States Senator Grassley’s committee
claims that churches run by CEO/pastors are really not-for-profit
corporations and should file 990 tax forms with the IRS.

Five men appointed by the LCMS President on the CCM meet in a closed room
and their rulings are binding on all parties: the Convention, the
congregations, and every pastor and teacher. However, when the Convention
votes by a 2/3 majority on a resolution dealing with the official doctrine
and practice of the Synod, it is as if they never wrote it.

The 22,000 members by which the Synod shrank in 2006 are counted as
acceptable losses that “position the Synod for growth” by getting rid of
dissidents and giving the hierarchy total control over Synodical assets.


__._,_.___
 
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DaRev

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He is condoning the comment the lay person's pastor made about CEOs and forming the congregation the way he wants to and not according to Walther's "Church and Ministry".

What do you call what Hartung is advocating?

Well, what you posted does not say anything about the pastor making a comment about CEO's either. The person asking the question is the one who made the CEO comment, not the pastor or Hartung. Don't put words in people's mouths that they did not say.

Hartung said nothing about the pastor being a CEO. He is commenting on the congregation's Christian freedom to set it's polity as it sees fit and not dictated by the Synod.
 
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aggiedude

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I am a member of LCMS and though i do not agree with our president of LCMS I am going to stay and fight There are people who are trying to turn LCMS into another ELCA but why don't these people go to ELCA?

LCMS does have it's faults but I am not about to leave I am going to stay and fight for what I believe in.
 
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