Good 'OL LCMS

[RadMan]

Scott It still amazes me how some people here can criticize and attack me personally and be condesending towards me........and nothing else. No matter what sources, articles documented information I post I STILL get nothing but opinion. Opinion doesn't mean anything when confronted with facts, whether you agree with them or not. I'm not asking for anyones agreement. I am stating facts that are know to be prevalent with the LCMS and some of our seminaries.

All I hear is Cascione, Otten----Cascione, Otten. Over and over again. Most of my info does NOT come from them even though you insist that it does. Evidently facts are beneath you and opinion and hearsay mean more. You haven't given me an iota of evidence that what you say is true or even that you know what you are talking about.

You have stated that LCMS has problems or is in flux because of heterodox ideas and you done nothing to refute what I say with anything but what your ideas are. Nothing concrete.

Talk is cheap.

 

[DaRev]

I am stating facts that are know to be prevalent with the LCMS and some of our seminaries.

I can't speak for Scott, but if I may respond...

The probem though is that most of your "facts" come from Otten and that bias, and only portray one tiny aspect of the bigger picture.

Could I suggest that you make a point to indicate your sources. If you have done that, I must have missed some of them, and for that I apologize.

 

[DaSeminarian]

Scott It still amazes me how some people here can criticize and attack me personally and be condesending towards me........and nothing else. No matter what sources, articles documented information I post I STILL get nothing but opinion. Opinion doesn't mean anything when confronted with facts, whether you agree with them or not. I'm not asking for anyones agreement. I am stating facts that are know to be prevalent with the LCMS and some of our seminaries.

All I hear is Cascione, Otten----Cascione, Otten. Over and over again. Most of my info does NOT come from them even though you insist that it does. Evidently facts are beneath you and opinion and hearsay mean more. You haven't given me an iota of evidence that what you say is true or even that you know what you are talking about.

You have stated that LCMS has problems or is in flux because of heterodox ideas and you done nothing to refute what I say with anything but what your ideas are. Nothing concrete.

Talk is cheap.

You are right. Talk is cheap. I remember about a month or two ago you were all fed up with the LCMS. You said you were going to check out Herman Otten's church. He and Cascione work together on CN. I made the assumption that since you wanted to go to his church that you pretty much agree with his line of thought. My bad. I should never have made assumption and for that I apologize to you.

Does our Synod have some problems? Yes. But so does every other synod in the Lutheran Church. The ELS and WELS are no exception. I will tell you that Fort Wayne is not teaching EO beliefs. I know it is only my word against everyone on LQ or CN or Cascione. But hey I am there and most of them are not. They make rash decisions based on hearsay and break the 8th commandment several times daily. I went to lurk at LQ last night and found literally 6 or 7 cases of bearing false witness just in one thread. I haven't posted there for over 7 months now and quite frankly I will never go there again.

I reckon we will always have our differences of opinion. I am a Confessional Lutheran. I hold quia subscription to the Lutheran Confessions as stated in the Book of Concord.

This seminary gets no help from synod for tuition or other and when we get slammed by the Christian News or Jack Cascione's Reclaim News it harbors bad feelings for both sides. It seems to me that they don't try to find out what it really is about. They only want to get their digs in. I happen to know that Jack Cascione's son went to Fort Wayne a number of years ago and for reasons I am not privy to, he was asked to leave. This is why I suspect Rev. Cascione's motives are not exactly pure.

I ask one favor from you and that is if you have questions about what is going on at Fort Wayne to please IM me and ask. If I don't know the answer right away I will find out in as short a time as possible. If you don't hear from me don't assume that I have forgotten because I likely have not but need time to get the best info possible to satisfy your query.

I would appreciate respect just as much as I am sure you would like me to respect you. Again my apologies for my attitude in this whole debacle.

BTW... The student whose paper was criticized will not make a rebuttal. He doesn't feel that he should have to defend it. I agree with him as I said, from reading the papers and then re-reading Rev. Cascione's review of said article I believe that Rev. Cascione was out of line and completely took the paper out of context not to mention broke a copyright law in order to post it online.

 

[RadMan]

Even as an unlearned laymen with no seminary experience I see the fallacy of the "incarnation" of Christ to the church the false elevation of the ministry. That's it in a nut shell. No great theological mystery. I didn't get my opinion from someone else's explanation but from just reading the 2 sems students articles. I made my assumptions before I even saw a rebuttal. The rebuttal just clarified what I though.............and supported it.

This is a copy of an email I sent to a professor at one of the seminaries and he agreed in essence on my assessment.

"All I can see is the one sem student equating the "church" as a physical emanation (like the tabernacle) and not the understanding that it is the invisible. Again playing into the hands of the RCC. Also his other statement seems to support that with the idea that Jesus is still fleshing the church (incarnation). I guess that would also support the belief of transubstantiation. Leap of logic but it makes sense to me. Also seems to support the "tradition" (directly connected to God through flesh) that they hold. Also I don't remember any bishops in the LCMS

The second sem student mentions that only a pastor can know the "mysteries of God". Alluding that this is only found through education. Doesn't say anything about a calling and passing of the Keys to the minister. Basically stating the laymen have no right to judge doctrine. Again---somewhat RCC in stance. Although I've seen this version somewhat in the LCMS. I'm not dismissing a seminary education. Very necessary."

As another brilliant mind on our TCL forum has mentioned before the saying "All theology is Christology" can lead to some false conclusions. And that is what is claimed in the first sentence of the sem students paper. "Since all theology is Christology".

 

[DaRev]

I hope you have permission of the alleged sem professor to copy and paste his email on a public forum without citing him for it.

 

[RadMan]

I didn't quote him. I quoted my email to him before I read the rebuttal from another source. I have not quoted anything from the professor. I just said that he agreed with me in essence.

 

[DaRev]

I didn't quote him. I quoted my email to him before I read the rebuttal from another source. I have not quoted anything from the professor. I just said that he agreed with me in essence.

I misread your post. My bad.

 

[DaSeminarian]

Even as an unlearned laymen with no seminary experience I see the fallacy of the "incarnation" of Christ to the church the false elevation of the ministry. That's it in a nut shell. No great theological mystery. I didn't get my opinion from someone else's explanation but from just reading the 2 sems students articles. I made my assumptions before I even saw a rebuttal. The rebuttal just clarified what I though.............and supported it.

This is a copy of an email I sent to a professor at one of the seminaries and he agreed in essence on my assessment.

"All I can see is the one sem student equating the "church" as a physical emanation (like the tabernacle) and not the understanding that it is the invisible. Again playing into the hands of the RCC. Also his other statement seems to support that with the idea that Jesus is still fleshing the church (incarnation). I guess that would also support the belief of transubstantiation. Leap of logic but it makes sense to me. Also seems to support the "tradition" (directly connected to God through flesh) that they hold. Also I don't remember any bishops in the LCMS

The second sem student mentions that only a pastor can know the "mysteries of God". Alluding that this is only found through education. Doesn't say anything about a calling and passing of the Keys to the minister. Basically stating the laymen have no right to judge doctrine. Again---somewhat RCC in stance. Although I've seen this version somewhat in the LCMS. I'm not dismissing a seminary education. Very necessary."

As another brilliant mind on our TCL forum has mentioned before the saying "All theology is Christology" can lead to some false conclusions. And that is what is claimed in the first sentence of the sem students paper. "Since all theology is Christology".

Well if the Paper was copied with the word "Since" then it is being wrongly copied. The first word is not "Since" but "If". So the first line reads "If all theology is indeed Christology, then it must follow that the same is true for ecclesiology." This is a conditional statement and the rest of the paper seeks to answer the first question.

If you change the word "If" to "Since" it supposes that the writer of the paper has already come to that conclusion and is pawning it off as fact. The writer is testing the query of Christology and Ecclesiology as possible synonyms or at the very least equal terms.

The Second paper is far from the RCC or the EO. It shows the Pastor as Shepherd of his flock and that the training we receive helps us to protect the flock from the evil foes who want to murder them. It does not deny you the right to judge doctrine as you claim, but shows that the Pastor is well equipped to in all areas to serve his congregation. Do you want a Pastor who is not equipped for his vocation? I think you might be reading between the lines too much.

 

[RadMan]

Sorry I was quoting form memory on the "since". That still doesn't negate his article which goes from the "If then" hypothesy to the "then this is true" conclusion. He obviously is wanting to make a point and not just hypothesizing or extrapolating.

How can you get any conclusion from this article that it isn't advocating incarnation? Why are you avoiding the issue that he is presenting. You haven't really said anything at all about the article other that that the student doesn't have to defend it and the article was taken out of context. You're just beating around he bush and totally avoiding the issues that are addressed.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Chad Bird is no longer in the LCMS? Where did he go? ChiRho thought he was GREAT and, if I recall correctly, posted an number of his sermon's in the Word of Lutheran Wisdom sticky.

 

[RadMan]

Chad Bird is no longer in the LCMS? Where did he go? ChiRho thought he was GREAT and, if I recall correctly, posted an number of his sermon's in the Word of Lutheran Wisdom sticky.

I might be wrong but I think he just is not at CTS. I think that's what DaSem said. Whether he is in the LCMS I don't know. You would have to go to the rooster site at LCMS.org and find out.

 

[DaRev]

He's not on the LCMS roster.

 

[RadMan]

I just found him at the CTS site. Wonder if he's still there.
http://www.ctsfw.edu/online/thykingdom/issues/14

 

[DaRev]

I just found him at the CTS site. Wonder if he's still there.
http://www.ctsfw.edu/online/thykingdom/issues/14

That's over 2 years old.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

So...does anyone know where he went? Did he go independent? He surely wasn't looking East...and I doubt Rome lured him. Did he become Presbyterian?

ChiRho loved his sermons but I didn't. The tone was so usually brutally harsh.

 

[RadMan]

So...does anyone know where he went? Did he go independent? He surely wasn't looking East...and I doubt Rome lured him. Did he become Presbyterian?

ChiRho loved his sermons but I didn't. The tone was so usually brutally harsh.

I don't see him on the CTS faculty site. They had him listed as faculty in 2005. I goggled him last night and came up with a blank other than his past history.

 

[DaSeminarian]

I might be wrong but I think he just is not at CTS. I think that's what DaSem said. Whether he is in the LCMS I don't know. You would have to go to the rooster site at LCMS.org and find out.

He left the CTS faculty after his divorce and he is not on a clergy roster to my knowledge. I don't know enough about the specifics because it was before I came here. Those are the facts. As to where he is now I am not certain.

 

[RadMan]

Dr. M. Franzmann's statement:

"Where the Christ is proclaimed, there will always be both, confessors and deniers, for . . . the Christ is the Christ who sunders and divides. . . . The Messiah is the Prince of Peace . . . But He brings no cheap peace no half peace, no peace by compromise. He can create peace only by destroying evil; and since men love evil and cling to that which excludes them from the whole peace of God, His coming forces a decision between good and evil and proves to be, for all its peaceful intent, the sundering sword. . . . The division cuts through all human connections and dissolves every nexus that human life knows. And since it is an absolute division, the decision and the renunciation which it involves are agonisingly absolute. . . . This is no soft and mellow Jesus, no pink-and-blue Christ; there is Do such Jesus Christ in our records of Him. And these apostles are not suavely robed young saints looking beatific against a bright Italian sky" (Follow Me, p. 96).
​

 

[RadMan]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]ELCA NEWS SERVICE

November 5, 2007

Committee on Lutheran Cooperation Focuses on Cooperative Ministries
07-183-JB
http://www.elca.org/news/releases.asp?a=3767


BALTIMORE (ELCA) -- Leaders of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) discussed their denominations' cooperative ministries when they met Oct. 24 here at the Lutheran Center. The ministries address domestic disaster response, immigration matters, social services, and international development and relief.
The Lutheran church leaders, meeting as the Committee on Lutheran Cooperation (CLC), normally meet twice a year to discuss their common witness and provide updates to each other about current joys and concerns within their church bodies.
The leaders spent considerable time discussing their collaborative ministry through Lutheran Disaster Response, focusing on different understandings of the ministry that have emerged in recent years. The Rev. Rebecca S. Larson, executive director, ELCA Church in Society, and the Rev. Matthew C. Harrison, executive director, LCMS Board for Human Care Ministries, agreed to continue discussions about the ministry and return to the CLC with recommendations for the future.
At this meeting, the leaders met with executives who lead Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service (LIRS), Lutheran Services in America (LSA) and Lutheran World Relief (LWR), …
The Rev. Gerald B. Kieschnick, LCMS president, presented the key actions of the 63rd LCMS Regular Convention in Houston in July. The Rev. Mark S. Hanson, ELCA presiding bishop, discussed key actions of the 10th Biennial ELCA Churchwide Assembly, held in Chicago in August.
At the conclusion of the meeting, the Lutheran church leaders agreed to keep meeting as a sign of commitment to shared ministry. Hanson said the two church bodies have a warm relationship, and it is the ELCA's intention to move toward "altar and pulpit fellowship" with the LCMS. Nafzger agreed, saying he "can't imagine how any Christian can be satisfied with division at the altar but that the Missouri Synod is committed to the Lutheran understanding that altar and pulpit fellowship must be based on agreement in doctrine and practice, and that won't happen if we don't talk to one another."
Kieschnick added that he appreciated the ELCA leaders' willingness to meet with LCMS leaders "even though some theological differences continue to exist between the two church bodies." Some in the LCMS have been critical of the meetings with ELCA leadership because of these differences, he said. Kieschnick indicated the LCMS leaders' willingness to continue meeting with ELCA leaders "because it's the right thing to do."[/FONT]

 

[DaRev]

You and I both know that altar/pulpit fellowship between the LCMS and the ELCA will never happen until the ELCA gives up women's ordination, homosexual tolerance, support of abortion on demand, and a number of other things that we all know they aren't going to do. And the LCMS will never compromise on any of these things.