Good 'OL LCMS

[RadMan]

I think it's time to grow up now.

You're right. I think it's time for the people in LCMS to grow up.

I would stay if I could find a handful of people that even cared what is going on. But obviously according to what I hear in this forum there isn't many at all. All I hear is what a great guy Kieshnick is and if any body says anything against him they are defaming his character. Hope you guys are happy with your monarchy.

 

[DaRev]

Then you obviously have never read anything
I have ever posted. You go on and live in your little bubble while the rest of us work on the synod.

 

[RadMan]

I've read everything you've posted and all I've seen is you defend your position on what "you" do. You've made ovations on certain problems but have never posted what you've done about them.

Enlighten us. Tell us how pro-active you are.

 

[DaRev]

I've read everything you've posted and all I've seen is you defend your position on what "you" do. You've made ovations on certain problems but have never posted what you've done about them.

Enlighten us. Tell us how pro-active you are.

For starters, I didn't run away.

 

[RadMan]

You sound like a broken record and have answered just like I thought you would. You dodge the issues and questions. You are predictable.

Enlighten us with how many articles you have written in periodicals about your concerns about LCMS. Tell us how many speeches you have given on the polity of LCMS. How many conventions have you attended and voiced your concern? Or is it the "render unto Caesar the things that are Ceasar" attitude that gives ministers the reason not to get involved in politics of the LCMS. No matter how far afield they wander.

 

[DaRev]

You sound like a broken record.

Pot, meet kettle.

Enlighten us with how many articles you have written in periodicals about your concerns about LCMS. Tell us how many speeches you have given on the polity of LCMS. How many conventions have you attended and voiced your concern? Or is it the "render unto Caesar the things that are Ceasar" attitude that gives ministers the reason not to get involved in politics of the LCMS. No matter how far afield they wander.

You mean like Otten and Cascione and the other cry babies? No thanks. I prefer to work with pastors through the circuit and district to effect change in policy. That's how it needs to be done, from within.

 

[RadMan]

OK Joe. I'll lighten up on you. I know you think you do the best that you can do and you probably do. I did say that "some" people on here don't really care. Not all.

If you could take the "cry baby" connotation out of the attributes you think people have then you might find that they really care for what's happening.

 

[LilLamb219]

You're right. I think it's time for the people in LCMS to grow up.

I would stay if I could find a handful of people that even cared what is going on. But obviously according to what I hear in this forum there isn't many at all. All I hear is what a great guy Kieshnick is and if any body says anything against him they are defaming his character. Hope you guys are happy with your monarchy.

Oh, C'mon. WHO has said anything on this forum about what a "great guy Kieshnick is"???? Kieshnick isn't King. He won't be in his position forever. I hold out for a small glimmer of hope.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

`

 

[RadMan]

Go back and read the posts again and you'll find a cheerleader for him.

Nobody here has yet to point out any inequities of his monarchy. Kieshnick will consolidate his monarch so well with the support of the COP that any descension won't make it past his censors and into the media. He's already excersising his control over the congregations with them not being able to fire their pastors. That way he has total control through the COP and only has to promote one of his lackeys in the next convention and they are sure of a shoo-in.

Are people afraid? No--they don't care because they don't know.

 

[Confess]

Go back and read the posts again and you'll find a cheerleader for him.

Nobody here has yet to point out any inequities of his monarchy. Kieshnick will consolidate his monarch so well with the support of the COP that any descension won't make it past his censors and into the media. He's already excersising his control over the congregations with them not being able to fire their pastors. That way he has total control through the COP and only has to promote one of his lackeys in the next convention and they are sure of a shoo-in.

Are people afraid? No--they don't care because they don't know.

People are not afraid only because pastors are not practicing their doctrine.

Pastors. Teach, teach, teach. Don't worry about teaching the laity what the Synod is doing wrong, teach them the faith so that their eyes might see things clearly.

The laity has all the power, but if the pastors do not equip them with the true teachings, then the wrong people will remain in power.

This whole issue is no different then what Luther himself dealt with.

Luther argued with those responcible for the error and taught the laity.

 

[DaRev]

If you could take the "cry baby" connotation out of the attributes you think people have then you might find that they really care for what's happening.

If they truly cared, they wouldn't have left. They'd have stayed and used their energy and voice in a much more constructive manner. All people like that do is stir contention, which is exactly why Keischnick is still in St. Louis.

Go back and read the posts again and you'll find a cheerleader for him.

Nobody here has yet to point out any inequities of his monarchy. Kieshnick will consolidate his monarch so well with the support of the COP that any descension won't make it past his censors and into the media. He's already excersising his control over the congregations with them not being able to fire their pastors. That way he has total control through the COP and only has to promote one of his lackeys in the next convention and they are sure of a shoo-in.

Are people afraid? No--they don't care because they don't know.

There is another example of an extremely one sided opinion that is lacking much in the way of accuracy. The synod has no more control over congregations than what the congregations allow. It's still a congregational polity in the LCMS.
Do you not believe that called and ordained pastors, who's call comes from God, should be protected from renegade congregations? Pastors are more than mere employees who can be hired and fired at the whim of a church council. There is a proper procedure for the removal of a pastor who teaches false doctrine or leads a scandalous life. But pastors need to be protected from congregations who want to "fire" him because they don't like the way he distributes communion or something idiotic like that (and churches have tried to have their pastors removed for such silliness).

 

[porterross]

Go back and read the posts again and you'll find a cheerleader for him.

Nobody here has yet to point out any inequities of his monarchy. Kieshnick will consolidate his monarch so well with the support of the COP that any descension won't make it past his censors and into the media. He's already excersising his control over the congregations with them not being able to fire their pastors. That way he has total control through the COP and only has to promote one of his lackeys in the next convention and they are sure of a shoo-in.

Are people afraid? No--they don't care because they don't know.

If you're referring to me, you are mistaken and obviously didn't read my entire post or worse, you read into what you wanted it to say, which is still 100% inaccurate. Who do you think you're kidding?

You don't do your credibility any favors by attributing opinions to others' posts that clearly are not presented. That's exactly why most of us take these threads and your comments about the LCMS with a mountain of salt.

Just because we won't join you in following an organized lynch mob doesn't mean we are tickled pink with all of the current leadership of the synod. There are for more gentle and uplifiting, Christian ways to approach things and they begin with prayer.

Watching the convention online and seeing the conduct of those in the same camp of dissension you would align yourself with, I can say without any hesitation that I've never seen such despicable, hateful and malicious behavior at a governance meeting of any large association and I've attended quite a few. If anything, those rogues did more to show themselves as wolves in very thin woolen veils and there was nothing Christian about their statements and their attacks on other delegates and the leadership. They aren't smart enough to figure out that they alone have positioned themselves on the outside looking in and I'm OK with that.

 

[Zecryphon]

If you're referring to me, you are mistaken and obviously didn't read my entire post or worse, you read into what you wanted it to say, which is still 100% inaccurate. Who do you think you're kidding?

You don't do your credibility any favors by attributing opinions to others' posts that clearly are not presented. That's exactly why most of us take these threads and your comments about the LCMS with a mountain of salt.

Just because we won't join you in following an organized lynch mob doesn't mean we are tickled pink with all of the current leadership of the synod. There are for more gentle and uplifiting, Christian ways to approach things and they begin with prayer.

Watching the convention online and seeing the conduct of those in the same camp of dissension you would align yourself with, I can say without any hesitation that I've never seen such despicable, hateful and malicious behavior at a governance meeting of any large association and I've attended quite a few. If anything, those rogues did more to show themselves as wolves in very thing woolen veils and there was nothing Christian about their statements and their attacks on other delegates and the leadership. They aren't smart enough to figure out that they alone have positioned themselves on the outside looking in and I'm OK with that.

If someone were to try and get a handle on all this stuff, the problems in the synod, where would you recommend they start? I think I'm asking for a monumental headache here, but what can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment. I sell piano parts for a living, so I am fairly good with tedious subjects. LOL

 

[RadMan]

Not fully documented excerpts from article in CN.

 

[DaRev]

While I do find the LCMS' association with this organization troubling, I find it rather odd that it's only now that there is an uproar over this, while Keischnick is in office, given that the LCMS has been associated with ACPE since it's formation 40 years ago. I guess it wasn't an issue while Al Barry was president?

 

[Confess]

No one and no organization will be perfect this side of heaven so lets focus on getting the people educated in the doctrines of the church so that they will vote with their feet.

This problem the LCMS is having is about 50 or more years old. Pastors need to be united in one teaching in order for their to be a change. Today the pastors do not appear to be united, the nit pick each other to death as well as the laity. Pastors are positioned inbetween the Synodical headship and the laity, they are the most influential people in the Synod, they have the power to protect much of the laity from the false teachings of the Synod which means that the laity doesn't have to be effected by the poor leadership. This also means that the laity CAN be taught the truth which, when exposed to the Synod's false teaching, will end up making them disgusted. When the laity is disgusted, they tend to get more active in speaking the truth and teaching it to their children.

When generations are effected, then the needed change will begin.

 

[RadMan]

.

 

[RadMan]

Laity - Do We Need To Know Any Theology?

The laity (sheep) of the church consists of sinful people who have been brought to faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit, Eph 2:8-10 “For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, … For we are God’s Workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” The sheep judge the teaching they receive from their shepherd. But what is the standard used for this discernment? The Bereans used the Scriptures. Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures everyday to see if what Paul said was true.” Today many laity judge with a worldly view versus Biblical truths. There are those who quote Luke 6:37a “Do not judge and you will not be judged …” Scripture is clear here. Kretzmann’s Popular Commentary of the Bible makes it doubly clear that we are to refrain from judging our neighbor’s sin, but to pray for him. The measure we use to judge our neighbor will be used to judge us. If I know how God deals with me (mercifully while I don’t deserve it) then I must treat my neighbor that way, or I have no mercy. The wrong thinking laity believes this verse relieves them of the responsibility to discern and judge inside the church. 1Corinthians 5:12-13 “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside; Expel the wicked man from among you.” It is our responsibility to judge those inside the church with the standard given by God, His Truth, not the worldly view.

In Dr. C.F.W. Walther’s The Sheep Judge Their Shepherds, he states, “…That if the sheep are to judge the shepherds, then they should also know the true doctrine and be sure of it.” So just how do we know the True Doctrine? We must study the Bible and Confessions of our church together and individually. When elected to positions of leadership in our congregations, we must work with our shepherds on the basis of True Doctrine, not out of ignorance of the truth. Are we going to be judged for these things? Yes, Christ paid the price for our sins through His vicarious atonement, but do we sin all the more so that grace abounds? No, as Romans 6:1&2 says, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” The 2004 Synodical Convention displayed the laity’s standard for judging inside the church. Many resolutions were passed in opposition to SCRIPTUAL TRUTHS, such as Resolution 8-01A “To Amend Bylaws on Ecclesiastical Supervision and Dispute Resolution” and 3-08A “To Affirm the Conclusions of the 1994 CTCR Report: The Service of Women in Congregational and Synodical Offices”.

We are a divided synod for the reasons stated above. Many of the laity have been led astray with poor teaching while giving their unspoken approval. But what are we to do about it? First, we MUST repent and then turn to the One and Only Truth, Jesus Christ, the Word. In many cases we have been taught sound doctrine and the Truth of God’s Word, but we have lost our way. We have not listened to our confessional pastors. We have sinned. We must return to the individual and corporate study of God’s inerrant Word and feed from it as our standard for judging. Remember, that we will judge. We do it everyday in the right and the left kingdoms, but we must be watchful not to mingle the two. The Holy Spirit will produce the fruits as His Word abides in us. For as Isaiah 55:11 states so beautifully “so is my word that it goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.”

This article written by Howard Pigors
Permission to reproduce is granted ONLY without changes.

 

[RadMan]

Is Ablaze Evangelism?

There appears to be considerable confusion in the LC-MS today regarding Ablaze!. LC-MS World Mission insists that Ablaze! is “not a program, it’s a movement.” Yet its stated goal is bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to 100 million people by 2017. There is even a scoreboard on the LC-MS official website that tracks “encounters.” This certainly sounds like evangelism, and indeed, most people think “evangelism program” when they hear Ablaze!.

Those who question the actual theology or methods of Ablaze! are labeled, erroneously, as being anti-evangelism. Let us look at the question “Is Ablaze! evangelism?” by first discussing what evangelism really is.

True evangelism is grounded on the Scriptural teaching that stony and unbelieving hearts are changed into hearts of faith in only one way; through the Means of Grace, Word, and Sacrament (Isaiah 55:11, Matthew 28:19-20).

Simply put, evangelism is leading people to the Means of Grace. This can be done in many ways, but one of the simplest and most effective is for a Christian to share his faith with someone in the context of an existing relationship, where trust and respect have already been established.

Ours is one of the most challenging times in the history of Christianity; for the prevailing thought in our culture today is that all things are subjective, and there is therefore no such thing as absolute truth, or sin. For someone who doesn’t believe in sin, there is no need for a Redeemer from sin. People in this culture need to hear both law and gospel; first the law, to be convicted of their sin so that they can see the need for a Redeemer, and then the good news, that Christ is that Redeemer who forgives their sins.

This is not a message that can usually be delivered once and forgotten, but for the most part requires ongoing discussion in the context of relationships found in our various vocations. However, the place where the Means of Grace is truly found, and where we want to lead our friends, is to the local congregation; where the Word is proclaimed in its truth and purity and the Sacraments practiced in accord with Christ’s institution.

Contrast this view with how Ablaze! DVD defines a “critical event,” as any one-time encounter where the Word of God is shared on a one-to-one basis, regardless of the response. In fact, it is exactly this one-time “event” that they have decided to “count” on the scoreboard as they diligently strive to attain 100 million contacts. The DVD states that Christians in India have “committed” to 25 million “critical events,” ostensibly leaving only 75 million for the rest of us. The numbers appear to be a goal unto itself. Indeed, anyone can report his own “critical events” on the website to add to the scoreboard total.

One of the glaring problems with this approach is that the one-time “critical event” becomes a goal in and of itself, and the importance of the on-going faithful proclamation of the Word, as well as the Sacraments, is tragically diminished.

While the Synod is raising funds, marketing Ablaze! Salsa, T-shirts, and sending teenagers and senior citizens to foreign countries, where they neither speak the language nor have any personal relationships; let us not forget our neighbor, and our conversations over the garden fence, or in the school cafeteria. I pray that God will continue to give us opportunities through our vocations to quietly invite our friends, family, and neighbors to hear the Word through His divinely instituted Means of Grace; and share the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ with a world that does not yet know Him.

This article written by Julie Martinez, Pagosa Springs, CO
Permission to reproduce is granted ONLY without changes.