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Good 'OL LCMS

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PreachersWife2004

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I can critique the LCMS all I want since I still belong to it.

I don't think the rule comes with an exception that it's okay to do so as long as you're still a member. You're treading on thin ice here, and while I understand your frustration, I think there's probably better ways of dealing with the problem.
 
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RadMan

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Kieschnick Stops Special Convention

After days of debate; politicking by the LCMS District Presidents; and
parliamentary ramrodding by President Kieschnick; uniformed and confused
2007 Convention delegates voted for a special convention in 2009 to save the
Synod from an unknown constitutional and financial crisis.

Doctor Robert Kuhn, Chairman of the Board of Directors also told the
Convention how important the Board of Directors thought the special
convention was to the Synod, even though the Board never voted for it. The
Synodical Treasurer also told the Convention that the Synod is in a
financial crisis and needs the special convention.

After the 2007 Convention, attorney and LCMS Director, Christian Preus,
wrote to Kieschnick that:

1. the delegates were not informed that they were approving the words
"urgent necessity" for a special convention as stated in the LCMS
Constitution, Article VIII B.2.

2. the delegates didn't know what the "urgent necessity" was that they were
voting for.

In his reply to Preus, Kieschnick wrote: "Be assured that, even if all the
delegates were not then or are not now aware of the referenced
constitutional requirement, the district presidents are certainly well
acquainted with it."

After the 2007 Convention spent nearly half a week of wrangling about the
urgent necessity for a special convention to address the Synod's fiscal and
administrative crisis, suddenly, President Kieschnick says he changed his
mind. He told the Council of District Presidents (COP) the Synod doesn't
need a special convention.

On September 11, 2007, the LCMS Reporter issued the following news release,
"Kieschnick: No special convention to consider restructuring."
http://www.lcms.org/pages/rpage.asp?NavID=12501

Kieschnick has given the LCMS a lesson on how to blow three million dollars
on a useless 2007 LCMS Convention. The real Synodical crisis is the
administrative collapse in the Synodical Headquarters and the COP.

Reclaim News has been told by a number of sources that when Kieschnick
discovered he didn't have the two-thirds majority required for a Special
Convention in 2009 from the COP, he suddenly decided that it was a bad idea.

What about the crisis, the urgent necessity for a special convention to save
the Synod? According to the news release from the "Reporter" there is no
mention of any particular crisis in the LCMS. All need for a special
convention can be handled in 2010. Then why couldn't it have been handled
in 2007?

Why did a Thursday morning, misguided, 2007 lamebrain Convention give a
two-thirds vote for (Res. 8-07S) a special 2009 Convention when they didn't
even know what kind of changes the LCMS Constitution needed? That's right!
They voted that Kieschnick would tell them what the changes should be in
2009.

The answer is that many of Kieschnick's cronies on the COP lied to the
delegates.

Why didn't the COP give Kieschnick the support for a special convention, he
was sure he had during the 2007 Convention?

Perhaps the COP didn't appreciate the way Res. 8-07S was worded, making the
decision for a special convention based on their vote, thus exposing them as
the masters of the Synod that they really are.

Perhaps they found out some particulars of Kieschnick's grand design to
reorganize the Synod and that certain Districts were going to have their
wings clipped. After all the COP support at the 2007 Convention, a
unanimous cancellation vote by the COP covered up all the Synodical fault
lines.

If Kieschnick would cut out all the useless, time wasting farce, he used to
clutter the LCMS 2007 Convention schedule; the delegates wouldn't need 2 or
3 extra days at the 2010 Convention. But of course, how could the 2007
Convention vote for any constitutional changes when they were not presented
the urgent changes Kieschnick says the Synod so desperately needs?

Kieschnick has said, "This is not your grandfather's Synod." How right he
is. Kieschnick is just as bad at administration and finance as he at
doctrine and practice. We can hardly think of any group that is more evenly
matched than Kieschnick and the COP. We have a unanimous vote to prove it.

Deception should not be confused with skillful administration.


--------------------------------------------
. LCMS Reporter writes, "Kieschnick: No special convention to consider
restructuring"


"Kieschnick: No special convention to consider restructuring"

Citing the need for sufficient time, clear communication, proper feedback,
and clear consensus in the Synod, President Gerald B. Kieschnick has
announced that he will not call a special convention in 2009 to consider
recommendations of a task force on structure and governance.

In a presentation to the Council of Presidents (COP) Sept. 9 in St. Louis,
the president instead urged a well-planned process of communicating the task
force recommendations, gathering feedback, revising the recommendations, and
bringing them to the Synod's regular convention in 2010.

"The issue has to be the recommendations of the task force," Kieschnick told
the council. "I don't want the calling of a special convention to be the
issue."

While affirming the urgency of the matters being addressed by the task
force, Kieschnick said, "It is the president's belief, hope, and prayer that
this process would avoid any appearance that recommendations of the task
force are thoughtlessly created, hastily recommended, or in any way forced
upon the Synod."

He said he wanted the result to be "greater understanding, agreement,
consensus, harmony, trust, and lasting peace among us in our beloved Synod
as we continue to fulfill our mission" and added words from the Synod's
mission statement, "vigorously to make known the love of Christ, by word and
deed, within our churches, communities and the world."

The COP responded by unanimously adopting a motion to support the
president's recommendation. Adoption of the motion was followed by extended
applause.

Kieschnick shared his decision in a presentation that described both "pros
and cons" of a special convention.

In its preliminary report to the LCMS convention last July, the Blue Ribbon
Task Force on Synod Structure and Governance said it had identified areas of
overlap, duplication of responsibilities, declining resources, inequitable
representation on elected boards and commissions, and other issues. A
special convention was proposed to deal specifically with Synod Constitution
and Bylaw amendments to deal with structure and governance.

The LCMS convention adopted a resolution noting that the Constitution allows
the Synod president to call a special session with consent of two-thirds of
the district presidents and directed the president to meet with the Council
of Presidents within 90 days to discuss such a session. The resolution also
stated that if a special convention were to be called, the delegates "stand
ready to serve."

The resolution also called on the president to consult with the two seminary
presidents, the Commission on Theology and Church Relations, the Board of
Directors, the vice president--finance/treasurer, other officers, and the
Commission on Constitutional Matters prior to meeting with the Council of
Presidents.

In comments to the Board of Directors a day earlier, Sept. 8, Kieschnick
described feedback from those sources as "frank and varied." There was no
clear-cut support, he said, either for or against the calling of a special
convention, and the general consensus was to leave the decision up to the
president and the COP. He said the primary counsel expressed by those
participating in these consultations was that the work of the task force be
"carefully, completely, and collaboratively conducted."

Kieschnick said the task force on structure and governance will have its
initial report and recommendations prepared for LCMS district conventions,
which begin in January 2009. He suggested ways to gather responses to the
recommendations, including a DVD of the task force report to show at all 35
district conventions, feedback from the district conventions, and regional
caucuses for 2010 convention delegates and district leaders.

Those activities would provide input for the task force in shaping its final
recommendations for the 2010 convention. The task force already has met with
district boards of directors and intends to conduct interviews with district
presidents and meet again with district boards of directors in 2008.

"Every time we get feedback, the task force wrestles with that feedback,"
Kieschnick said. "In my judgment, that give-and-take makes it much more
probable that the sense of ownership and acceptance will be widespread
throughout the Synod." He also repeated his encouragement that pastors,
congregations, seminary and university faculties, and other members of the
Synod thoroughly study and provide feedback to the theological principles
document already produced by the task force, titled
"Congregation-Synod-Church," so that any proposed structural changes are
consistent with what the LCMS believes, teaches, and confesses.

Kieschnick suggested that the 2010 convention will be extended by two to
three days to allow careful consideration of the structure and governance
proposals. He said the convention should consider the task force
recommendations first, since convention decisions on those recommendations
could affect the number and types of officers, boards, and commissions to be
elected, as well as other convention business and decisions.
 
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DaRev

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I can critique the LCMS all I want since I still belong to it.

Instead of defending your precious LCMS you just resort to quoting forum rules and don't defend it with facts.

That does not give you license to slam an entrire group of people. You may still be on a congregation roster somewhere, but you have publically removed yourself from the synod.

If you wish to ask questions and participate in civil debate, that's one thing. To post quotes from an extreme viewpoint and then take personal jabs at those of us still in the LCMS (which you have done repeatedly in this forum as long as I've been here) is something else entirely.
 
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DaRev

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Rad, it's one thing to post articles that show where the LCMS is faltering.

It should be pointed out that the articles that he posts come from ultra-conservative viewpoints, some of which are not even associated with the LCMS. Much of what they write is very misleading and not all that accurate.
 
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porterross

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I can critique the LCMS all I want since I still belong to it.

Instead of defending your precious LCMS you just resort to quoting forum rules and don't defend it with facts.


You have stated your intent to leave for another synod, so instead of repeatedly breaking the 8th commandment why not just shake the dust of the synod from your shoes and focus on what's so great about the synod you now wish to be a part of. I don't see what good it does to wallow in your displeasure.

You're not going to influence any of us away from the LCMS and Gerald Kieschnick is a fellow Christian, Lutheran and Aggie, so I especially don't take kindly to him being personally attacked. He's not perfect, but God has allowed him to serve our synod in the capacity he does, so we must accept it and trust His purpose.

Go with peace, but go. There is no need to keep picking at this wound. :)
 
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Confess

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Instead of focusing on a Synod, join a faithful congregation where you are being fed. The vocation of the laity is to be fed from a faithful pastor, the vocation of the pastors are to feed amidst the sinfulness surrounding him (including his Synodical affiliation). It is only when these two are achived will their be a faithful Synod.
 
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filosofer

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[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
It might help if the title of the thread were corrected "Good Ol' LCMS" otherwise, it gives a false impression.

Another quote that might be beneficial in this discussion:
[/font]
this commandment forbids all sins of the tongue whereby we may injure or approach too closely to our neighbor. For to bear false witness is nothing else than a work of the tongue. Now, whatever is done with the tongue against a fellow-man God would have prohibited, whether it be false preachers with their doctrine and blasphemy, false judges and witnesses with their verdict, or outside of court by lying and evil-speaking. Here belongs particularly the detestable, shameful vice of speaking behind a person's back and slandering, to which the devil spurs us on, and of which there would be much to be said. For it is a common evil plague that every one prefers hearing evil to hearing good of his neighbor; and although we ourselves are so bad that we cannot suffer that any one should say anything bad about us, but every one would much rather that all the world should speak of him in terms of gold, yet we cannot bear that the best is spoken about others.

Therefore, to avoid this vice we should note that no one is allowed publicly to judge and reprove his neighbor, although he may see him sin, unless he have a command to judge and to reprove. For there is a great difference between these two things, judging sin and knowing sin. You may indeed know it, but you are not to judge it. I can indeed see and hear that my neighbor sins, but I have no command to report it to others. Now, if I rush in, judging and passing sentence, I fall into a sin which is greater than his. But if you know it, do nothing else than turn your ears into a grave and cover it, until you are appointed to be judge and to punish by virtue of your office.
[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]


Oh yeah, the author's name is Martin, you might have heard of him.


In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]
 
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RadMan

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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]
It might help if the title of the thread were corrected "Good Ol' LCMS" otherwise, it gives a false impression.

Another quote that might be beneficial in this discussion:
[/FONT]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]


Oh yeah, the author's name is Martin, you might have heard of him.


In Christ's love,
filo
[/FONT]
I went in and changed the title yesterday after noticing my mistake and it changed in the post but not the title.

Now----------who are you accusing of slander and bearing false wintess?
 
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filosofer

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I went in and changed the title yesterday after noticing my mistake and it changed in the post but not the title.

Now----------who are you accusing of slander and bearing false wintess?
[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Not accusing anyone of anything. I commented that the thread title is misleading due a spelling mistake, and I don't think it was intentional on your part.


In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]
 
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RadMan

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[FONT="Book Antiqua"]
Not accusing anyone of anything. I commented that the thread title is misleading due a spelling mistake, and I don't think it was intentional on your part.


In Christ's love,
filo
[/FONT]
Oh OK sorry---It was just a typo that I tried to correct but it didn't work.
 
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RadMan

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I don't think people put the best construction on what I present. They just have these knee jerk responses instead of really thinking about the issues. Instead of taking it in the heart of constructive criticism it always turns into "me against them" and automatically puts me on the defense. It's like talking to liberals. They don't care what you say because they aren't going to listen. They have been indoctrinated in their way. 99% of the people don't know what is going on in LCMS and most don't care and the rest cover it up.

I may have a rash, unconventional way of presenting it but at least I do something, which is better than nothing and rolling over and playing dead.
 
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RadMan

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You better believe I'm leaving. And it's not so much because of the liberals it's because of wishy-washy , mealy mouthed do-nothings in the LCMS that don't care what happens to LCMS as long as it doesn't affect them. If it happens to someone else they just ignore it and go about with their comfortable little lives and say the other guy deserved it because he was rocking the boat.

As I said before, you guys are getting what you deserve by turning your backs on the problems. Good luck with you merger with ELCA and all it's affiliates in the distant future. And don't tell me it's not going to happen because it's closer than you think. The congregations don't make the decisions anymore. It's Kieshnick and the COP and they make the decision . Not you.
 
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