Good News Indeed, but then... WHAT IS IT!?

[expos4ever]

On this matter of whether Jesus is a presently enthroned sovereign over this material world:

Through a cryptic statement made to Caiaphus, Jesus declares He will very shortly become King over the real world. Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus when the latter ask if He is “Christ” (this means “king”, although readers may dispute this):

"Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

The reference to sitting at the right hand of power comes from Psalm 110:

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand…”

The “coming with the clouds of heaven” statement is an allusion to this material from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the (O)hair of His head like pure wool

His (P)throne was ablaze with flames,
………
"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

From both these references, it is clear that Jesus intends Caiaphus to see Him (Jesus) in the role of the Son of Man figure who gets presented to the Ancient of Days (YHWH) and takes the other of the two thrones (note the multiplicity of thrones in the Daniel material).

Among the many rich implications of this passage we have this: In this scenario, YHWH gets seated (apart from what happens to the Son of Man figure). This is a clear allusion to the enthronement of YHWH, fulfilling the deeply held, and scripturally sustained, Jewish expectation that YHWH will, at some point, become King of all the world.

Is Jesus king over the earth? Yes - we have clear allusions to Jesus as one who, having already been seated, is now ruling over all nations and peoples.

 

[Arsenios]

ridiculous. even Christ says 'my kingdom is not of this world' Jn18:36.
this world is NOT heaven, thus the Kingdom of heaven is NOT here and now.

what you probably meant is that those who are of the kingdom of heaven are here and now.

Came John the Forerunner of the Lord,
the greatest of the Prophets,
the Voice of one crying out in the wilderness:

"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

THAT is the Good News...

And of course you are right, the Kingdom of Heaven is not OF this world...

But you can rely on the fact that it is IN this world...

"From the time of John the Baptist until now,
the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence,
And the violent are taking it by force."

That is an action unheard of prior to John... An action IN the world...

And Christ proclaims this force of the violent:

IF any is willing after Me to be following,
Let him first deny himself...
Then take up his own cross...
And be following Me...

This is an action that sinners NOW and HERE have open to them...
It is IN the world...
And it is NOT OF the world...
VOLUNTARY denial of self...
And voluntary suffering...
Is for the SAKE OF the Kingdom of Heaven...

Step ONE of the Ladder of St. John Climacus is:

"Renounce the world."

Christians have been doing this for 2000 years now...
Ever since Christ overcame the world...
And then overcame Death...
By His Resurrection.

Arsenios

 

[Jan001]

In another thread some discussion going on (trying to go on) about what the gospel IS
and isn't.
Please share your thoughts on what IS the Gospel.

The gospel is the good news that if we obey Jesus' commands while we are living here on earth, we will then live forever with Him after His second coming.

Jesus' commands:

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”​

 

[Geralt]

no issue there. the kingdom of God is represented here on earth by God's people and the gospel is preach.

but the kingdom of 'heaven' (which what was written) is another thing. totally different.

we don't make this world 'heaven' even if the gospel is preach to all corners of the earth. we 'longed' for heaven, not make it.

It is not "ridiculous", it is clearly Biblical that the kingdom is here now. There is a translation problem with John 18:36. Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom does include this present material world of space, time, and matter".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from” (above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)”

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world” reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

 

[expos4ever]

no issue there. the kingdom of God is represented here on earth by God's people and the gospel is preach.

I disagree in that I believe the Scriptures teach that Jesus is presently enthroned over all this present world. And I say this fully aware that it may not "seem" like this is the case. Jesus is fully king and his dominion is all of creation. Granted, His kingship is neither obvious nor respected, but that does not change the fact that He is King.

but the kingdom of 'heaven' (which what was written) is another thing. totally different.

It is easy to get tripped up on the term "kingdom of heaven". It is a term that only Matthew uses whereas the other gospel writers use "Kingdom of God" in the same teachings. And it is really quite clear what the "Kingdom of God" is - it is the rule of God over this present world. Consider what I wrote in post 61. How does the argument there not make it clear that Jesus is claiming to be a full king over all nations?

When Matthew refers to the Kingdom of Heaven, he is referring to the rule of God here on earth according to heavenly principles. There are many Biblical arguments as to why we should understand Jesus as presently ruling over all nations even though, of course, it may not look that way. But, to make an analogy, I know that Justin Trudeau "rules" over my nation (I am a Canadian) even though I have never seen the man and the impact of his being in charge is indiscernible to me.

 

[Geralt]

in a general sense, God is sovereign over all the earth, even satan asks permission from Him.
who ever did not sing 'He's got the whole world in His hands'?

but our world is NOT heaven on earth. we are at war here against the RULER of this world (Ep6:12)

if God 'rules' this earth absolutely, His glory will be the sole interest of every person on the planet.
this is true in heaven, but NOT true on earth today.

and so we pray ' may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven', not 'your will is done both here in earth and in heaven'.

the consequences of dominion theology and the victorious living movement in our time (which i assume you are leaning into) is to devalue the work of the devil, persistent sinful nature, and diminish the hope and aspiration for life after death.

I disagree in that I believe the Scriptures teach that Jesus is presently enthroned over all this present world. And I say this fully aware that it may not "seem" like this is the case. Jesus is fully king and his dominion is all of creation. Granted, His kingship is neither obvious nor respected, but that does not change the fact that He is King.

It is easy to get tripped up on the term "kingdom of heaven". It is a term that only Matthew uses whereas the other gospel writers use "Kingdom of God" in the same teachings. And it is really quite clear what the "Kingdom of God" is - it is the rule of God over this present world. Consider what I wrote in post 61. How does the argument there not make it clear that Jesus is claiming to be a full king over all nations?

When Matthew refers to the Kingdom of Heaven, he is referring to the rule of God here on earth according to heavenly principles. There are many Biblical arguments as to why we should understand Jesus as presently ruling over all nations even though, of course, it may not look that way. But, to make an analogy, I know that Justin Trudeau "rules" over my nation (I am a Canadian) even though I have never seen the man and the impact of his being in charge is indiscernible to me.

 

[newhopeinHim]

I believe the gospel is doing what Jesus did during His life as a man. He was our example in how to live and love others. I believe the gospel was also the precious blood that Jesus by His own choice, shed for us. Jesus is the gospel all wrapped up in one. We are to follow Him as He also walked in the earth. To humble ourselves before the Lord and all those He created. Our walk with the Lord is not easy, and the life Jesus lived was not easy. He was cast away and rejected, a Man of suffering and sorrows. And so we pick up our cross and put our trust in Him no matter the road ahead. And while we walk with Him... we lead others to the kingdom of God..

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Heaven begins, for those who follow Christ taking up their own cross and dying to this life, right here on earth, here and now... The Kingdom of Heaven is here and now... For those who are willing to follow after our Lord...

Arsenios

You bring up a good point. Too many people speak of eternal life as a distant and future experience; however, it's not.

Here's how I would reword your statement, and if you ever need an editor, just call.

Eternal life begins here and now, for those who place their trust in our Lord.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)

 

[newhopeinHim]

You bring up a good point. Too many people speak of eternal life as a distant and future experience; however, it's not.

Here's how I would reword your statement, and if you ever need an editor, just call.

Eternal life begins here and now, for those who place their trust in our Lord.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)

yes thatbrian... we bring heaven down to earth. Heaven lives in us as the Holy Spirit does His will. It is not far off or distant, but lives in every believer.

 

[Arsenios]

You bring up a good point. Too many people speak of eternal life as a distant and future experience; however, it's not.

Here's how I would reword your statement, and if you ever need an editor, just call.

Eternal life begins here and now, for those who place their trust in our Lord.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)

Thank-you...

As to your last, the word 'hears' means 'obeys'...

To hear is to heed [have heard and obeyed]...

What a joy to be in harmony with you...

HEAR O ISRAEL...

Way more than sound in the ears, yes?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

we bring heaven down to earth.

How did you receive this teaching?

You may PM me if you wish...

Arsenios

 

[expos4ever]

but our world is NOT heaven on earth. we are at war here against the RULER of this world (Ep6:12)

Well, the gospels are clear: the kingdom of God has come to earth:

“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

And consider this, if the "kingdom of heaven" is not the rule of heavenly principles here on earth and is instead "heaven" in the Sunday school sense of the place were redeemed people go when they die, how can Jesus say this:

From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

How can violent men be disrupting the kingdom of heaven unless it is indeed here on earth?

As for Ephesians 6:12: what translation has "the ruler of this world"? Here is the Young's literal translation:

because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places

This does not contradict the claim that Jesus is king over all creation; it merely shows that human leaders are disobedient members of that kingdom.

 

[expos4ever]

if God 'rules' this earth absolutely, His glory will be the sole interest of every person on the planet.

Well, let's be careful here. I never said that Jesus's kingdom has achieved its full expression yet. But that certainly does not mean Jesus is not King. Paul explains all this in 1 Corinthians where he clearly characterizes Christ's reign as progressive:

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

This could not possibly be more clear: it is over the course of Christ's reign as King that problems are solved, the last being death. And it is only at the end of Christ's kingship when He hands the kingdom over to the Father - see verse 28 - that the state of affairs you describe will exist. But the text is really quite clear: Christ's kingship entails the progressive transformation of the world: He must reign UNTIL He has put all His enemies under his feet.

 

[expos4ever]

and so we pray ' may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven', not 'your will is done both here in earth and in heaven'.

This text is consistent with the view that Jesus is King. You seem to think that if Jesus is King, all problems will be instantly solved. If that were true then, yes, you would have a point - it would make no sense to pray for God's will to be done in a perfect world.

But not only is there no Biblical support at all for the notion that things have to perfect throughout the reign of Jesus, we have Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 explicitly stating that this will not be the case (see previous post).

 

[expos4ever]

the consequences of dominion theology and the victorious living movement in our time (which i assume you are leaning into) is to devalue the work of the devil, persistent sinful nature, and diminish the hope and aspiration for life after death.

I am not sure what you mean by "dominion theology"; I am simply asserting what I believe the Bible teaches quite clearly, that Jesus is already enthroned as King over this present world.

How, and please be precise, does that belief devalue the work of the devil?

How, and please be precise, does that devalue the sinfulness of humanity?

How, and please be precise, does such a belief diminish hope and aspiration for life after death?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Thank-you...

As to your last, the word 'hears' means 'obeys'...

To hear is to heed [have heard and obeyed]...

What a joy to be in harmony with you...

HEAR O ISRAEL...

Way more than sound in the ears, yes?

Arsenios

How about "heeds" in place of obey? Can we meet in the middle on that?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

How did you receive this teaching?

You may PM me if you wish...

Arsenios

If you skip to the end of the book, you will see the City of God coming down to the new Earth.

 

[sunlover1]

How did you receive this teaching?

You may PM me if you wish...

Arsenios

Cool way to say that as carriers of God, we do kind of bring Heaven to earth.
We're actually foreigners and aliens of this place, seated in the heavenlies
with Christ.
I'm hoping that's what she meant, looking forward to the response.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

How did you receive this teaching?

You may PM me if you wish...

Arsenios

In your understanding, is there any other way to receive a teaching other than through the reading, preaching, or teaching of God's Word?

 

[expos4ever]

On this matter of a "spiritual kingdom". As I have shown, Jesus hints to Caiaphus that He (Jesus) is the son of man figure from Daniel 7. What happens to that son of man figure? He is given dominion over all the nations. And Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will leave to see that prophecy fulfilled.

The rather obvious conclusion: Jesus sees Himself as about to be enthroned over all the earth.

Note what you need to do to deny this: you need to, without justification of course, restrict this kingship to a mysterious inner domain of spirit. This is a concept no Jew would have in their mental kit-bag. A king is a king over this present world.

Yet for some reason, many believers - perhaps even most - deny what texts like Daniel 7, as invoked by Jesus before Caiaphus, very strongly imply: Jesus is already enthroned as a king over this present world.