Gone To Rest

Clare73 · Sep 25, 2023

Clare73 said:

I don't take my doctrine from prophetic riddles (in Rev) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8). I take it from apostolic teaching

BobRyan said:
Perhaps if you would list all the books of the Bible you reject we can be careful when responding to you so that we do not use certain portions of scripture

Is that intellectually honest?

Diamond72 · Sep 25, 2023

BobRyan said:
The Bible does not say the body survives or the carbon atoms of the body survives. It says in Matt 10:28 that the body is killed (returned to dust) and the soul is what survives

What they translate dust, Science calls star stuff. What we need to do is look at a molecular computer.

Understanding and mastering the properties and behaviors of molecules at the atomic and molecular levels are fundamental to the development and advancement of molecular computing. Researchers continue to explore innovative ways to harness molecular properties to store and process information efficiently and reliably.

If God does not store the information and all our memory on our atoms, then what or where is the information of who we are, so that God can bring us back to life and resurrect us. I have put a lot of study into this, many books could be written on this subject.

Where is the information of who we are? Where does it go when we die?

DNA and RNA Computing:
- DNA and RNA molecules can store vast amounts of information due to their base pairing properties (A-T, C-G). Sequences of these base pairs can represent digital data.
- Researchers have explored encoding and decoding digital information using DNA and RNA molecules, creating the potential for highly dense and stable data storage.
Molecular Memory:
- Certain molecules or molecular structures can retain specific states, representing memory units.
- Multistate molecules can encode multiple bits of information based on their unique combinations of states.
Molecular Spintronics:
- Spintronics involves utilizing the spin of electrons for information storage and processing.
- Molecules with specific spin properties can be used for magnetic storage, allowing for information to be stored in the spin state of individual molecules.

BobRyan · Sep 25, 2023

Diamond7 said:
What they translate dust, Science calls star stuff.

many professors in science have this idea of stars engaging in nucleosynthesis to make planets and other starts out of their own explosion.

In the end it is still just the same elements in the periodic chart no matter the source.

Diamond7 said:
What we need to do is look at a molecular computer.

I don't think that would help at all since there is no such thing as a beach on the ocean that is in fact a molecular computer. One is very basic while the other is highly organized and massively obvious to detect the difference.

Diamond7 said:
If God does not store the information and all our memory on our atoms, then what or where is the information of who we are, so that God can bring us back to life and resurrect us.

I don't think you understand the problem.

Computers have for decades worked in binary code but that does not mean you can take a pile of 0's and 1's dumped on your kitchen table and expect them to be a functioning operating system. That's not how it works.

Nor can you look at the atoms that make up a transistor or a Qubit and try to turn them into an operating system. That does not work either.

BobRyan · Sep 25, 2023

Diamond7 said:
Where is the information of who we are? Where does it go when we die?

DNA and RNA Computing:

DNA and RNA molecules can store vast amounts of information due to their base pairing properties (A-T, C-G). Sequences of these base pairs can represent digital data.

Researchers have explored encoding and decoding digital information using DNA and RNA molecules, creating the potential for highly dense and stable data storage.

Neither DNA nor RNA determine who you are.

Identical twins have the same DNA but are two different people

"The latest phases for twinning can occur around day 9 and beyond. In a 9-day split, these twins are still considered mirror image babies. Compared with 3- and 5-day twin splits, this group is most likely to have the least genetic mutations."

They don't think the same thoughts or have the same ideas. Each twin is their own person. Their own soul, their own individual. Fully and completely a distinct person.
.

Diamond72 · Sep 26, 2023

BobRyan said:
Neither DNA nor RNA determine who you are.

A lot of our gifts, talents and abilities are inherited in our DNA. There are 7 doctors in my Immedient family. How would you explain that if there were not something that was inherited? I remember a urologist in Utah. All 4 of his sons were urologists. All five of them had a practice together although they mostly did surgery and worked out of the hospital.

Diamond72 · Sep 26, 2023

BobRyan said:
In the end it is still just the same elements in the periodic chart no matter the source.

The point is that we were there in the beginning. This is all a part of what we represent today. Even here on earth we started out as pond scum. This was actually when sex or male and female began. Over time we evolved into what we are today. God declares the end from the beginning. When the universe was smaller than a mustard seed, that seed still contained all of the information to create a universe. Even the argument can be made that every atom in our body contains the information for all of creation.

BobRyan · Sep 26, 2023

Diamond7 said:
The point is that we were there in the beginning.

The Empire state building was built in 1931. Your statement is like saying "Adam and Eve had the Empire state building" because the raw materials in the earth existed in Eden. I think that skips over a lot of details.

Diamond72 · Sep 26, 2023

BobRyan said:
The Empire state building was built in 1931. Your statement is like saying "Adam and Eve had the Empire state building" because the raw materials in the earth existed in Eden. I think that skips over a lot of details.

I am talking about the big bang theory. I think it is very interesting, even though I know people disagree with it.

The big bang theory, or the scientific theory of the creation, suggests that all things are interconnected and made of the same substance. According to the big bang theory, the entire universe and all its contents were contained within a single point of infinite density and zero volume.

This is the basis of Einsteins formula E=MC2.

BobRyan · Sep 26, 2023

Diamond7 said:
I am talking about the big bang theory. I think it is very interesting, even though I know people disagree with it.

The big bang theory was called "big bang" as a derogatory term against scientists who affirmed it - claiming that they were speaking Gen 1:1 terms "in the beginning God created" - so then "a big bang" and all of the universe appeared.

Diamond7 said:
The big bang theory, or the scientific theory of the creation, suggests that all things are interconnected

Indeed - but elements came about at some point and then tried to use nucleosynthesis to make more elements according to those scientists.

Diamond72 · Sep 27, 2023

BobRyan said:
The big bang theory was called "big bang" as a derogatory term against scientists who affirmed it

The Big Bang theory was the first time that the scientific community entertained the notion that the universe had a beginning. Which of course is the first word in the Bible.

The philosopher and writer (and later saint) Augustine posed the question in his ''Confessions'' in the fourth century, and then came up with a strikingly modern answer: before God created the world there was no time and thus no ''before.

Maimonides also talked about this around 1,000 years ago.

CoreyD · Sep 28, 2023

BobRyan said:
Paul is using the term as we would use it today "I can't be at that event with you tomorrow - but I am with you in spirit". We do not mean that we die and our spirit goes to someone's house etc.

Right. So I'm wondering why you used that scripture.
You said

IN that context it is because the body is only dust at that point.
2 Cor 5:1-4 calls it the "unclothed" state of the spirit/soul "WE do not want to be unclothed" as Paul says.

However, I thought you were about to back it with scripture.
You left the statement hanging then, as just something you believe, but is there an actual reference that I can look at, to show that "2 Cor 5:1-4 calls it the "unclothed" state of the spirit/soul"?

CoreyD · Sep 28, 2023

Clare73 said:
Well done, Corey.

"Their bodies know not anything" is irrelevant when the immortal spirit of a person does not die at physical death, but is with Jesus, and is not in ignorance.

Angels are green men with green hair.

You did it again.

Clare73 said:
How are the dead raised (how can the dead even be raised)? (v.35)
You fool! The same power that raises the dead seed to new life raises the dead body to new life--the power of God. (v.36)
With what kind of body will they come? (v.35)

Which translation are you using? can you post a link please?

Clare73 said:
Paul compares it to plant life in vv. 37-38.

What did Paul compare to a plant?

Clare73 said:
When you sow, you do not plant the finished plant that will be, but a seed. (v.37)
And as the seed in the ground must die (cease to exist as a seed) in order to become a new plant, so
the natural earth body must die ("be planted") in order to become a new resurrection body ("new plant," v. 38)

You are saying then that the dead body is the seed?

Let's use your angle, and see how that looks.
1 Corinthians 15:
35 But someone will say, “How are the ~~dead~~ dead bodies raised up? And with what body do ~~they~~ the dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it the dead body dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain — perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body a body as He pleases, and to each ~~seed~~ dead body its own body.

Is that what you believe?

Clare73 said:
Plant organisms, while organized similarly in their own order, are different;
the seed sown is related to the new plant that sprouts,
but the new sprout has a different and genuinely new body that God has given it.
Likewise with our resurrection body.
It is sown perishable, it is raised (comes out of the ground) imperishable.
It is sown in dishonor (sin), it is raised in glory (sinless).
It is sown in (sinful human) weakness, it is raised in sinless immortal power.
It is sown a natural (sinful, perishable, dishonorable) physical body, it is raised a spiritual (sinless, imperishable, honorable) physical body (1 Co 15:42-44).

As far as I know, the seed is not the plant.
However, you said, "the new sprout has a different and genuinely new body that God has given it".
What is God giving a body to? You said, God has given it.
The Bible says, God gives it a body.
What is it?

Clare73 said:
Well, let me point out that, in light of the fact that God in his defense of Moses told Miriam that he gave prophecy in riddles, not clearly. (Nu 12:8), I take my doctrine from NT apostolic teaching, rather than from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly (Rev 20:13).
And NT apostolic teaching (authoritative to the church) locates the coming of the Lord and the end of time together:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

At the second coming, the physically dead bodies of mankind will be resurrected to life, and the saints still living at that time, along with the saints risen from their graves, will be caught up (raptured) together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:17), and to descend with him to earth (parousia, as in Jesus' entry into Jerusalem where they went out to meet him and accomanpanied him into the city) for the final judgment.

(Con't below)

Let me see if I follow.
1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So, you believe that those who died before the coming of the Lord, will be resurrected the same time as those who are alive at the time of the coming of the Lord?
Or, do you believe that those who died before, will be raised up before those alive at the coming of the Lord.

Of course, I understand that most people do not believe in an earthly resurrection - that is, that persons are resurrected to live on earth.
Is that your belief as well?

Let me ask you this as well.
Jesus said, "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God; unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:3, 5
Paul said, " I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." Acts 24:15

Do you believe that the unrighteous are resurrected to heaven?

Clare73 said:
Con't from above:

Paul is continuing from chp 4, regarding reasons for their courage and patience under affliction; i.e., eternal happiness after death.
1. If we die (our spirit's tent, earthly body is destroyed), our spirits are with God (without their bodies).

Paul said, "we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Corinthians 5:1
I did not read "our spirits are with God (without their bodies)". Where did you read that

Clare73 said:
2. However, our spirits, unclothed by human death, groan to be clothed.
3. Because when we are clothed we will not be found naked.

Paul further said, "we who are in this tent groan, ...not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed".
Tell me please, we refers to what - the person; their life (soul), or the spirit that keeps them alive?

Clare73 said:
"We do not wish to put off (be unclothed)" (v.4) = unclothed spirit after death
The dismantling of the spirit's earthly tent--the death and separation from its body--is unnatural to man in the highest degree.
There is an earnest desire that if it were the will of God, we might not die, but just be changed, because in itself, it is not desirable that our spirit be unclothed and separated from its body.
While death, considered merely in terms of separation of spirit and body, is not to be desired but dreaded; nevertheless, when considered as a passage to glory, the believer is willing rather to die than live, to be absent from the body that he may be present with the Lord, to leave this body that he may go to Christ, and to put off these rags of mortality that he may put on the robes of glory.
So, rather than dying and his spirit being with Christ unclothed, he would rather Christ just come, that he not die but be changed. . .
in the twinkling of an eye (1 Co 15:51-52), swallowing up his mortal body with immortal life.

So you seem to believe we are spirits walking around in bodies? Is that your belief?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 reads :
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit (ruach - רוּחַ) will return to God who gave it.

Job 27:3 reads :
as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit (ruach - רוּחַ) of God is in my nostrils

Job 34:14, 15 reads :
...If He should gather to Himself His Spirit (ruach - רוּחַ) and His breath,
All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Psalm 104:29, 30
You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath (ruach - רוּחַ), they die and return to their dust.
You send forth Your Spirit (ruach - רוּחַ), they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.

The scriptures let us know that the spirit God put in man, is that which keeps him alive. It is not a living thing with a body, but rather, like the wind - breath.

Clare73 said:
Paul goes from reasons for their courage and patience under affliction to reasons for the comfort of believers in this life :
they are now willing to be at home in the body and absent from the Lord, to walk not by sight but by faith, which faith gives them good reasons for their hope after death.

We look forward to being in our heavenly dwelling at the destruction of our tents (by death) to be with God, (vv.1-2)
but, nevertheless, our spirits do not wish to be unclothed (without their tents) because it is not natural to them. (v. 3-4)
So he would rather that Christ just come, he not die, but be changed (v.4). . .in the twinkling of an eye.

Didn't you say earlier :
"And as the seed in the ground must die (cease to exist as a seed) in order to become a new plant, so
the natural earth body must die ("be planted") in order to become a new resurrection body ("new plant," v. 38)"

Do they die, as Paul said, or not?

Clare73 said:
When Paul speaks of death in 2 Co 5, he is speaking of death of the physical body, not death of the immortal spirit or soul.
That the spirit is immortal is the issue of 2 Co 5, in that it is not natural for the immortal spirit to be without its body (unclothed).

It was a common euphemism (phrase) used then, as it also is now.

There is no scripture that says we have an immortal spirit, or soul. At least none that you have shown, or i have read.
For one thing, the spirit is not a living entity, but God's spirit that he gives to men, so that they live. Psalm 104:30
For another, the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28.
Therefore, the soul is not immortal, according to the Bible.

Paul is speaking of death of the person - the soul, as he does in 1 Corinthians 15:36
It's Satan who claimed we do not die. Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die." Not God, or his word, the Bible.

BobRyan · Sep 28, 2023

BobRyan said:
Paul is using the term as we would use it today "I can't be at that event with you tomorrow - but I am with you in spirit". We do not mean that we die and our spirit goes to someone's house etc.

CoreyD said:
Right. So I'm wondering why you used that scripture.
You said

I was just pointing out that we can't use Genesis 2 to define every meaning for the term no matter the context.

CoreyD said:
However, I thought you were about to back it with scripture.
You left the statement hanging then, as just something you believe, but is there an actual reference that I can look at, to show that "2 Cor 5:1-4 calls it the "unclothed" state of the spirit/soul"?

It looks like you are talking about the following post by me --
========================================

BobRyan said:
The body goes to dust - the spirit goes to God at death Eccl 12:7 --- but it is in the John 11, and 1 Thess 4:13-18 dormant state which is why you have "the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 and "God is not the God of the dead" in Matt 22, it is why seances are forbidden just as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was forbidden in Gen 2-3. The only person they were going to meet there - was a demon.

CoreyD said:
Yes, but the spirit is not the soul right?

IN that context it is because the body is only dust at that point.
2 Cor 5:1-4 calls it the "unclothed" state of the spirit/soul "WE do not want to be unclothed" as Paul says.

Context determines meaning so then in 1 Cor 5:3 Paul says - "3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed."

Paul does not mean he is dead, or that he is having an out of body experience, or that his soul/spirit travels around while his body is in location "a" , his spirit/soul is at location "b". It is an entirely different context for that same term.

In Gen 2 God forms man's body , breathes into him the breath of life and man "becomes" a "living soul" and everyone agrees with this one. But what happens at the first death? -- in that case they "kill the body but not the soul" Matt 10:28 which means you can't just use the "became a living sol" as the definition because that is the special case of bringing a soul into existence in the first place (which is always the case of both a living body and a spirit joined and a living soul as the result)..

======================================== END post quote

So then there are two bodies in 1 Cor 15. One is this one we have now - and the other one is the immortal body given at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15.

Then in 2 Cor 5 we have the same reference to two bodies. One is this current decaying tent (that will go to dust) and the other one is the immortal one -- just as in the 1 Cor 15 statement

So unless you feel you will get two immortal bodies - after you die -- we have 2 Cor 5 relying on the reader being informed by the 1 Cor 15 statements about the two bodies. One in this life and the next one at the resurrection.

1 Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written: “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly one, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15 above --
The second body is received at the resurrection from the dead at the last trumpet - the trumpet sounds and the dead are raised.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

2 Cor 5:
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Once we have put on that 1 Cor 15 --- second body we will not be found naked "A dormant soul without a body -- "

The unclothed "naked" state is the intermediate one between the decay/destruction/dust of this body and the future resurrection with its second body.

"mortal swallowed up by life" in 2 Cor 5 is called "death swallowed up by victory" in 1 Cor 15
1 Cor 15: "54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory."

CoreyD · Sep 28, 2023

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said:
Paul is using the term as we would use it today "I can't be at that event with you tomorrow - but I am with you in spirit". We do not mean that we die and our spirit goes to someone's house etc.

I was just pointing out that we can't use Genesis 2 to define every meaning for the term no matter the context.

It looks like you are talking about the following post by me --
========================================

IN that context it is because the body is only dust at that point.
2 Cor 5:1-4 calls it the "unclothed" state of the spirit/soul "WE do not want to be unclothed" as Paul says.

Context determines meaning so then in 1 Cor 5:3 Paul says - "3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed."

Paul does not mean he is dead, or that he is having an out of body experience, or that his soul/spirit travels around while his body is in location "a" , his spirit/soul is at location "b". It is an entirely different context for that same term.

In Gen 2 God forms man's body , breathes into him the breath of life and man "becomes" a "living soul" and everyone agrees with this one. But what happens at the first death? -- in that case they "kill the body but not the soul" Matt 10:28 which means you can't just use the "became a living sol" as the definition because that is the special case of bringing a soul into existence in the first place (which is always the case of both a living body and a spirit joined and a living soul as the result)..

======================================== END post quote

So then there are two bodies in 1 Cor 15. One is this one we have now - and the other one is the immortal body given at the resurrection according to 1 Cor 15.

Then in 2 Cor 5 we have the same reference to two bodies. One is this current decaying tent (that will go to dust) and the other one is the immortal one -- just as in the 1 Cor 15 statement

So unless you feel you will get two immortal bodies - after you die -- we have 2 Cor 5 relying on the reader being informed by the 1 Cor 15 statements about the two bodies. One in this life and the next one at the resurrection.

1 Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written: “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly one, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15 above --
The second body is received at the resurrection from the dead at the last trumpet - the trumpet sounds and the dead are raised.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

2 Cor 5:
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Once we have put on that 1 Cor 15 --- second body we will not be found naked "A dormant soul without a body -- "

The unclothed "naked" state is the intermediate one between the decay/destruction/dust of this body and the future resurrection with its second body.

"mortal swallowed up by life" in 2 Cor 5 is called "death swallowed up by victory" in 1 Cor 15
1 Cor 15: "54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory."

Thanks for the extensive use of scriptures. I greatly appreciate that.
These scriptures I agree with.
I understand that the person, or the life of the person is the soul.
What i am trying to get from you, is the scripture that puts the soul as the spirit. I haven't seen that.

For example, could you respond to this post - just the paragraph starting with "So you seem to believe we are spirits walking around in bodies? Is that your belief?", and the last paragraph? Thanks.

BobRyan · Sep 28, 2023

CoreyD said:
Thanks for the extensive use of scriptures. I greatly appreciate that.
These scriptures I agree with.
I understand that the person, or the life of the person is the soul.
What i am trying to get from you, is the scripture that puts the soul as the spirit. I haven't seen that.

Context in each case determines meaning of the term.

IN Matt 10:28 there is no spirit. This we all can see

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But we know that everyone has the breath of life - all have a spirit, a life force etc. IN "the context of" Matt 10:28 the soul that survives includes the spirit that goes back to God.

In a number of places in both OT and NT the terms soul and spirit are used interchangeably,

but in other places they are used in distinction to each other.
Heb 4:"12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

"Body without the spirit is dead" James 2:26 -- no mention of soul at all.

And there is no text that says "the spirit departs and the soul ceases to exist". The only alternative to the spirit departs is "The body returns to the dust".

Clare73 · Sep 28, 2023

CoreyD said:
Angels are green men with green hair.
You did it again.
Which translation are you using? can you post a link please?

I use the NIV.

CoreyD said:
What did Paul compare to a plant?
You are saying then that the dead body is the seed?

I am explaining Paul's analogy of the relationship between one's body in the grave and one's resurrection body.

CoreyD said:
Let's use your angle, and see how that looks.
1 Corinthians 15:
35 But someone will say, “How are the ~~dead~~ dead bodies raised up? And with what body do ~~they~~ the dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it the dead body dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain — perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body a body as He pleases, and to each ~~seed~~ dead body its own body.
Is that what you believe?

As far as I know, the seed is not the plant.
However, you said, "the new sprout has a different and genuinely new body that God has given it".
What is God giving a body to? You said, God has given it.
The Bible says, God gives it a body.
What is it?

Do you not know what "it" the Bible is talking about?

CoreyD · Sep 30, 2023

BobRyan said:
Context in each case determines meaning of the term.

IN Matt 10:28 there is no spirit. This we all can see

Isn't that because Jesus does not hold the view many do, of the spirit.
If Jesus views the spirit as the spirit that comes from God - what God gives, to make a person come to life Psalm 104:30, Jesus would see no need to mention the spirit there, since he does not view it as if it's some living thing, or entity.

BobRyan said:
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But we know that everyone has the breath of life - all have a spirit, a life force etc. IN "the context of" Matt 10:28 the soul that survives includes the spirit that goes back to God.

In a number of places in both OT and NT the terms soul and spirit are used interchangeably,

but in other places they are used in distinction to each other.
Heb 4:"12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

"Body without the spirit is dead" James 2:26 -- no mention of soul at all.

And there is no text that says "the spirit departs and the soul ceases to exist". The only alternative to the spirit departs is "The body returns to the dust".

Okay. I understand now.
After you said "But we know that everyone has the breath of life - all have a spirit, a life force etc. IN "the context of" Matt 10:28 the soul that survives includes the spirit that goes back to God." I understand you are saying that the life force no longer animates the body, and returns to God, in the sense that it is in God's hands to give the life force to the ones who will live.

Did I understand you correctly?
You don't think it leaves the body,and travels through the universe, making its way through the heavens of the heavens, till it reaches God, do you?

CoreyD · Sep 30, 2023

Clare73 said:
I use the NIV.

I am explaining Paul's analogy of the relationship between one's body in the grave and one's resurrection body.

Do you not know what "it" the Bible is talking about?

I do know, but I am asking you to explain it to me, since you think its dead bodies, and if I substitute dead bodies for it, the text does not make sense.
So, I want you to present your understanding, to show how it makes sense to you.
All you need to do, is substitute it with dead bodies, and quote it. It's not a difficult thing to do, is it?
That's all part of teaching and explaining. It's a lot harder than just making statements of what we believe, but it is the way of the master, who used the scriptures to teach.

I explained what 'it' is, and I said, "Paul is speaking of death of the person - the soul, as he does in 1 Corinthians 15:36".
After the person - the soul - is raised to life - awakened from sleep/rest, God gives it a body - a new one. Either an immortal spirit body, to live in heaven, or a fleshly mortal body, to live on earth.

No, doubt, you disagree, but that can be discussed, by your answering the question I asked - Do you believe that the unrighteous are resurrected to heaven?
I noticed you did not answer that, and other important questions.
Is there a reason you didn't answer? Would you mind telling me that reason.

I also wanted to clarify what you earlier said, but you didn't respond to that either.
Earlier, you said :
"And as the seed in the ground must die (cease to exist as a seed) in order to become a new plant, so
the natural earth body must die ("be planted") in order to become a new resurrection body ("new plant," v. 38)"

I wanted to know if you believed they die, as Paul said, or not.
Those aren't too hard to answer, I believe. Are they?

Clare73 · Sep 30, 2023

CoreyD said:
I do know, but I am asking you to explain it to me, since you think its dead bodies, and if I substitute dead bodies for it, the text does not make sense.

Okay, fair enough.

Seems I was not clear enough.
"It" refers to the seed, analagous to the natural body.

I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:

"35 But someone will say, “How are the ~~dead~~ natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do ~~they~~ the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed ~~dead body~~ its own body (plant)."

CoreyD said:
I explained what 'it' is, and I said, "Paul is speaking of death of the person - the soul, as he does in 1 Corinthians 15:36".

All spirits (divine, angelic, demonic, human) are immortal.
All physical living bodies are mortal.

The human person is tri-part, body, immortal soul and immortal spirit. (Heb 4:12).
Without all three, there is not a complete human person.

Paul is not speaking of the death of the (tri-part) person, he is speaking only of the death of the person's physical body.

CoreyD said:
After the person - the soul - is raised to life - awakened from sleep/rest, God gives it a body - a new one. Either an immortal spirit body, to live in heaven, or a fleshly mortal body, to live on earth.

No, doubt, you disagree, but that can be discussed, by your answering the question I asked - Do you believe that the unrighteous are resurrected to heaven?

No, the bodies of the unrighteous are resurrected and reunited with their immortal spirits to face judgment and damnation.

The natural (mortal, sinful, weak) physical bodies of the righteous are resurrected to new spiritual (immortal, sinless, perfect) physical bodies reunited with their immortal spirits.

CoreyD said:
I also wanted to clarify what you earlier said, but you didn't respond to that either.
Earlier, you said :
"And as the seed in the ground must die (cease to exist as a seed) in order to become a new plant, so
the natural earth body must die ("be planted") in order to become a new resurrection body ("new plant," v. 38)"

I wanted to know if you believed they die, as Paul said, or not.
Those aren't too hard to answer, I believe. Are they?

The natural (mortal, sinful, weak) physical (earth) body dies and returns to dust.

So where do we stand now?

CoreyD · Sep 30, 2023

Clare73 said:
Okay, fair enough.

Seems I was not clear enough.
"It" refers to the seed, analagous to the natural body.

I thought you were clear.

Clare73 said:
I have altered yours following to reflect the meaning:

"35 But someone will say, “How are the ~~dead~~ natural dead bodies raised up? And with what kind of body do ~~they~~ the formerly natural dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (seed, using analogy of plant life to refer to natural buried body) is not made alive unless it the dead body (seed) dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body (plant) that shall be, but mere grain (seed)— perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it the dead body (the seed) a body (plant) as He pleases, and to each seed ~~dead body~~ its own body (plant)."

Thanks.
No need to put natural. Do you know of any unnatural dead?

So, this is your text :
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead bodies raised up? And with what body do the dead bodies come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow (the dead body) is not made alive unless the dead body dies. 37 And what you sow (the dead body), you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain - perhaps wheat or some other grain (the dead body). 38 But God gives the dead body a body as He pleases, and to each seed (dead body) its own body.

Therefore, you believe dead bodies die, and God raises up dead bodies, and gives the dead body a body.
Can you tell me if that makes sense to you. Can you explain how God gives the body a body, and why God would do that, or even why God needs to do that?
If you are saying the spirit or soul is immortal, why does God need to raise up dead bodies, to give that dead body a body?
Why not just clothe the immortal spirit with an immortal imperishable body?
The immortal spirit does not even need to be raised up, since it's not dead.

Clare73 said:
All spirits are immortal.
All physical living bodies are mortal.

I'm sorry I have to do this again.
Angels are green men with green hair.

No scripture. Just a claim on a belief.

Clare73 said:
The human person is tri-part, body, immortal soul and immortal spirit. (Heb 4:12).
Without all three, there is not a complete human person.

Clare, the scripture reads. :

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Nowhere did you or I, or anyone else read immortal in there. Unless they are seeing an illusion Satan is showing them.
If you see the word immortal in there, I have to let you know, Clare - it's because of 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Is there a scripture that says we have an immortal soul and immortal spirit? There is none.
I have a question for you :
Can the soul die? A simple yes or no, would be sufficient, thanks.

Clare73 said:
Paul is not speaking of the death of the tri-part person, he is speaking only of the death of its physical body.

Paul is speaking of the death of the person.

1 Corinthians 15:
3 Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...
4 He was buried... He rose again the third day...
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once...
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up - if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up?"

Did you notice - nowhere did Paul talk about dead bodies. Paul repeatedly refers to the dead period (full stop .)
People insert bodies in the text, because of their beliefs - mainly, the teaching of the immortal soul, that says we do not die.
We don't want to be doing that, since Peter refers to it as "twisting" or "distorting" Paul's letters - 2 Peter 3:16

Clare73 said:
No, the bodies of the unrighteous are resurrected and reunited with their immortal spirits to face judgment and damnation.

The natural (mortal, sinful, weak) physical bodies of the righteous are resurrected to new spiritual (immortal, sinless, perfect) physical bodies reunited with their immortal spirits.

The natural (mortal, sinful, weak) physical (earth) body dies and returns to dust.

Angels are green men with green hair.

No scripture. Just a claim on a belief.

Clare73 said:
Where do we stand now?

We're making some progress.
You are stating a belief that we do not find has any support in scripture.
However, I thank you for responding, although once again somehow you, for the second time, didn't answer my question.

Do you believe that the unrighteous are resurrected to heaven?
Is that hard to answer Clare? Be honest with me. Does it hurt in some way? A simple yes or no, would be fine here, as well.

Oh, can I share a tip with you.
The font colors on CF are terrible. I can't see half of them on the background - especially Dark Theme.
So, I use the HEX value instead.
I haven't yet worked out a nice red, but I use a shade of aqua - #248A9B, and gray - #9A9A9A. I can see these better. Can you?

Gone To Rest

Blood-bought

Dispensationalist 72

Junior Member

Junior Member

Dispensationalist 72

Dispensationalist 72

Junior Member

Dispensationalist 72

Junior Member

Dispensationalist 72

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency