I understand your reasons my friend but I’m my opinion deception should just be avoided. Are the answers to your question about their beliefs worth sinning? You basically fell to temptation because of your curiosity of a false religion. What did you gain?
What james puts in judgement is those christians who say they believe, yet they keep the drugs, or the drunkeness, they keep the premarital sex, they keep sinning with no repentance.
Regarding your other post, deuteronomy 18:22 leaves very clear that if a prophet prophecies and it doesnt come to pass, he is a phony, and in 13:2 states that if a prophet arises and makes signs, or whatever, and they lead you after a differnt God from the one in scripture, they are phonies too
As someone pointed out waaay erlier, I'm seeking the truth, to be able to later preach to them more effectively, a similar situation to samuel bringing the heifer and thelling everyone it was for a sacrifice instead of telling that it was actually for anointing David.
Time out: you didn't bother to take the missionary lessons and now you're complaining that "this wasn't taught to me"????Well, i didnt have missionary lessons
That's literally missionary lesson #2 (if you go by the default order)." and missionaries and friends never thought of saying "we believe in the preexistance, heavely mother, we can become gods, we belive we can do ordinances in behalf of the dead" and so much more... I'd say those are huuuge differences, yet it seemed like i had to torture them to pry that off of them.
Like yes i was quickly told about the first vision, and supposedly how the gospel was lost and stuff like that, but those differences.. oh no
its not a matter of being crammed or not, its a matter of accesibility. if the father of a daughter leaves the church, he cant be present at the sealing.
regarding my leaving, I started to question... like bringing up Isaiah 43:10.. politely or John 1:1 also ephesians 2:8 mind you, i didnt know much of mainstream christianity, so i was honestly trying to puzzle everything together.... and each time, the response was dodgy or flat out "The bible has been translated so many times that many nuances have been lost" which is all fine and dandy except that we do have the documents in the original language and pretty early at that.. so its not like it passed from hebrew to greek, to german, to french, to english to spanish so thats a bunch of bs...
Also, i started to question why is joseph smith was a prophet if he said he wouldnt be killed before finishing his work, and he was killed before finishing his bible "translation"
also the fact that the manuscript where the book of abraham was taken is actually a pagan text, as discovered when the church sent the original papyrus to an egyptologist.
and with this question never answered in its entirety. one day, i simply told everyone "Hey, Lovely to have spent this months together, but i have this this and this problems, and i cant reconcile them, I know the workd of God is the bible, but the BoM and the church contradicts it, so I'll have to leave, maybe at some time i'll return, but i'm not sure of that" or something of the sort, and peacfully said goodbye to all and left,
a week later my gf gave me an ultimatum after a youth camp, friends slowly started ignoring me, and in less than 2 weeks, I had no gf, and my friends and missionaries wouldnt respond.. I learned from a friend that my GF gave rumors of me cheating before giving me the ultimatum, and when my friend caught wind that i hadf left, she started denying it close to 3 weeks after my departure.
with time their response kept becoming "fuller" to a point where they were saying that yes, you can become like God, God wasnt eternal and such
Time out: you didn't bother to take the missionary lessons and now you're complaining that "this wasn't taught to me"????
Dude.
That's literally missionary lesson #2 (if you go by the default order).
You can't complain that no one told you stuff when you skipped the basic lessons.
It's also covered in depths in several chapters of "Gospel Principles" book. Did you not read that?
As someone pointed out waaay erlier, I'm seeking the truth, to be able to later preach to them more effectively, a similar situation to samuel bringing the heifer and thelling everyone it was for a sacrifice instead of telling that it was actually for anointing David.
I didnt have missionary lessons because i was brought to the church by my gf at the time, who tought me plenty and kinda took charge of that so i really didnt have much contact with missonaries other than hello and goodbye during and after the sacrament meeting...Major red flag...
Also doesn't sound right...
This is why I'm beginning to see red flags.
Things just aren't adding up.
There's a difference between rejecting the Bible and rejecting post-Biblical Creeds.
As I said earlier, I love every single word of the Bible. Though of course I may have different interpretation of different passages.
I reject the Creeds because they are not scripture by anyone's account. LDS make no secret of that.
There's a vast gulf of difference between what you're trying to do and what Samuel did.
Samuel was carrying out his God-given duty in a time and place where doing so could have gotten him killed.
You... are under no such constraints unless you can prove it to us.
And you were likewise given the "Gospel Principles" manual for LDS. And a set of people specifically set aside to teach you. And a class for you to ask questions. Plus all the ambient stuff and scripture and the entirety of LDS.org.I didnt complain that i wasnt taught, but rather that when asked i was met with a round about way. Again, maybe they teach it converts very soon, in my case, i was met with the opposite. Also, in no other church this is so.
In any evangelical church you are not expected to learn soley from missonaries or pastors, but really from anyone. in my case when i arrived to my first church ever (baptist) most people were ready to give details and teach me, and although some directed me to the pastor as they honestly didnt know, no one tiptoed with any topic.
Regarding the book on the principles, i read as my classes went, and frankly, you might not realize, but for someone not well versed at all in LDS doctrine its not as clear cut i frankly needed someone to explain many parts, specially since i had little background even in mainstream christianity. And i need to clarify, my questions moslty arose during said classes, before and after meetings maybe i'd ask something, but 90% of my questions arose while reading such book, so in part yeah, i read it, thats where my questions came from.
So all in all, here's why I didnt realize some stuff was clearly off from mainstream christianity until later:
-I had little knowledge of mainstream christianity to begin with so most stuff slipped without rising any red flag
-At first, I was met with very "christianese" responses. For example "Wait, why does it say salvation + works?" and they answer with "No, its not all of that, its just like James 2" which again, are 2 different things, james teaches to how to recognize true faith not "You are saved by faith after all you can do" like 2nd Nephi does but at the time, although odd, it shut me up
-Not wanting to cause problems, i really didnt try to refute any response and i just kept it, and because I had little knowledge, i couldnt even if i wanted
Not at all.John 1: Jesus IS God from as far as time goes, he created all things, on earth and heaven, wheter power dominions or principalities and everything under the sun
Deuteronomy 6: Listen Oh israel, YHWH (Jehova) is Elohim (Elohim means God), YHWH (Jehova) is ONE
Deut. 18: If any prophet fails a prophecy, its not a prophet, Jospeh smith failed multiple prophecies
Isaiah 43 & 44: There is only one God, there is no other God anywhere, God doesnt even know any other, never have other gods been formed and never will there be after
all of those, in context, dont change, yeat each contradicts LDS teaching
And you were likewise given the "Gospel Principles" manual for LDS. And a set of people specifically set aside to teach you. And a class for you to ask questions. Plus all the ambient stuff and scripture and the entirety of LDS.org.
Thus far your story has been:
- You skipped the missionary lessons and didn't even bother to talk to them
- You skipped reading the Gospel Principles book
- In Gospel Principles class, you skipped asking for clarification when you didn't understand things.
- Did you even read the Book of Mormon or other scriptures?
Dude. I'm mean, that's all your right to do so, but you can't skip every avenue here and then complain "no one taught me".
Not at all.
Duet 6-- totally believe. And no, I don't need to accept a document written by people in 500 AD to believe that.
Deut 18 -- doend't say "all servants of God for forever be perfect" as you are intreating it. Such is idol worship of men and goes against the many examples in the Bible.
Isaiah: context is anti-idol worship. Totally believe. Also believe in only one God.
For starter, let me say I respect your beliefs, whatever they may be, and have zero interest in trying to get them to change. What I am trying to do is 1) understand your journey, and 2) clarify what it is I and other LDS folks believe.Jane, I feel you are not reading... I didnt skip reading the book or asking clarification, I did, but because I had little knowledge of christianity, when someone said "2 nephi 25:23 is the same as James 2" I thought that it seemed off, but in my little knowledge, it did add up. or when someone spoke of getting to be in the celestial kingdom, it never occured that celestial kingdom was something different from "heaven/paradise"
I didnt skip the missonary lessons, my gf brought me after teaching me a bunch, I dont know if she never asked for those classs being offered or what, but i was never given such classes instead my gf tought me
regarding the BoM: I read and prayed, but I also looked for the bible to confirm it, if both were true, both should be in unison as much as the OT is with the NT, i expected differences, but the same God and same plan of salvation... didnt find that.
in conclusion... i knew enough christianity to notice something was off, but i didnt know enough as to know the explanations were wrong.. they just seemed off... then, with the big things, i realized why
Waiting to talk about this second.Deut 6... we have the early manuscripts in Hebrew which read:
Shemah Y'srael Listen O Israel
YHWH Eloheynu YHWH Ekhad Jehova is Elohim, Jehova is one
Ve'ahavta et YHWH Eloheykha You shall love Jehova your God
be'khol levavkha with all your heart
oobe'khol nephshekha and with all your soul/spirit/breath
oobe'khol meohdekha and with all your strength
those are the very words in the original hebrew. also a prayer recited by jews since moses, un changing. when the scrolls of the dead sea were found, the prayer was exactly the same
Deut 18 does say that if a prophet fails in a prophecy, its not a prophet of the Lord, in that aspect, they must be perfect as they are saying what God told them Joseph said "I wont be killed untill I finish all my work" he was killed before finishing the joseph smith translation
Isaiah:
if true, the God is a liar, since idols have been formed since, and probably will be formed after... It says No Gods beside, before of after Him, God doesnt even know of any. If this again meant Idols, it would mean God didnt know about baal... which he clearly did. the passage does refer to idols, but then It states that there is No true God anywhere, and neither shall be after, every other is fake, otherwise you make God a liar or a God that doesnt know about the millions of idols created.
Hello sister. Here is the first chapter(Doctrines and Covenants 132) we shall go through(if you are still willing). But before we get into discussion I have a few questions for you.I shall go through more in detail tomorrow. (It's late now and I got to get to bed)
If you're interested, Here's a good link explaining actual LDS belief on the subject of becoming like God (which is totally different than replacing God): Becoming Like God
Good night, I'll write more tomorrow.
Het, I don't want to de-rail the OP there, so I'm send you a PM.Hello sister. Here is the first chapter(Doctrines and Covenants 132) we shall go through(if you are still willing). But before we get into discussion I have a few questions for you.
1. Is there any disagreement(to the best of your knowledge) between anything said in the bible(Old and New Testament) or any of the writings of:Joseph Smith; any person within the quorum of 12; any person within the quorum of seventy; or any one of your Church presidents.
2. Is the bible(Old and New Testament) preserved and completely true?
3. If a disagreement does arise that could not be reconciled between the two(Bible and LDS Doctrine) which would you believe? And Why?
4. How many times can a prophet be wrong?
I would very much appreciate it if you could answer these questions for me sister before we start our discussion.
Thank you sister.Het, I don't want to de-rail the OP there, so I'm send you a PM.
Brother ...I appreciate your concern and love for them but remember we are to have no guile . We are children of the light ..not the gray . I had to quit a job , not because of illegal things but because the company wanted to us to withhold information . The ends justifies the means is not a christian teaching but is a trick of the enemy . ( There is a way that seems right unto man and that leads to death . ) Be careful in apologetics as well ...many get puffed up in spiritual pride through knowledge and are led into a debating spirit ..I see that also on this site . Grace and peace through Jesus Christ our Lord.Hello, first of all, for all my members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, I want to say, I have NOTHING against y'all as people, I REPEAT, NOTHING. and also sorry for using "Mormon", I know the presidency has said to not use it, i will though, because its much easier to the full name, and also clearer. I wanna say that I'm not hateful in any way, and only want to learn more, and if i tell the local chappel who I truly am, they will inevitably hold stuff back, and not talk as openly, its only natural since i will be seen as an outsider.
To fellow non-mormon christians, i need an opinion:
This is my situation, I spent 8 months in a chappel, almost becoming a mormon before i knew much of the bible. I started reading the bible and came out, now I love researching and learning about apologetics and talk to members of the mormon church (I specially enjoy Jeff Durbin's apologetics videos and I've started doing something similar). However, I would really like to know more about how mormons truly believe, what they struggle with, and what they are confident in.
This is not some diabolical plan to use their weakness against them, but to better understand mormons as to not missrepresent them, and not waste time on trivial issues, really to be able to be on the same page, to understand what they mean when they talk.
Because of this, I have an opportunity, to go to a mormon chappel where no one except one person knows me (and knows nothing of my past or theology) and frankly, sit there, contribute in as much as its according to the bible, and simply, be a discreet mormon. I'm not gonna say i was baptized into the church, or lie really. my story is:
"I spent 8 months in a chappel, moved cities, and now i started comming here, i havent been baptized into the church, but want to learn more."
this is EXACTLY TRUE.
I already went to a meeting, and frankly I was myself, of course biting my lips not to talk about how the bible doesnt support becoming Gods or such, but stil. And when asked about my story, I was complety open and sincere, but vague enough as not to talk of what i currently believe other than "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" I felt good, i'm not being evil, I simply wanna understand better, but from a point of apologetics, and not a possible convert.
I dont think that what i'm doing is wrong, sitting in the back and really not talking much of theology but i still want a (few) second opinion(s) on the matter. and again, i'm simply not flat out open about it, since last time i did (when i was starting to become a convert) they would not tell me some stuff, like how mormons believe you can be Gods, or that they dont fully trust the bible (or in their words, they trust the bible in as much as its translated correctly which seems to be code for "doesnt contradict the BoM)
Anyways, thanks!!
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