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Featured Gog/Magog

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One of the ways they try to trap is by denying the Dan.9:24-27 prophecy has any link to the prophecies in Dan.8:11-14 and Dan.11 & 12.
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Daniel 9 is about the Messiah who would bring in the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13.



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  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dan.9 is about prophecy of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, Christ Jesus' 1st coming to die on the cross, the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple by the Romans (or Herod's temple), and then the future abomination of desolation the coming false one of Dan.11 is to do in Jerusalem after sacrifices are started up again.
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    What you and most people don't see, is the huge world changer coming that will be the Sixth Seal event. This disaster, of a similar magnitude as Noah's flood, will virtually clear the entire Middle East and all the world will never be the same again.
    Our Bibles have plenty of information about what God plans to do about His creation that is once again: as in the days of Noah. Read the prophesies and understand.
     
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  5. DoubleJ23

    DoubleJ23 New Member

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    Is the Gog/Magog attack suppose to be lead by Russia?
     
  6. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    That is what some say , but not proven.Turkey is more likely to lead , possibly with Russia joining
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

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  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The Daniel 11 abomination of desolation by Antiochus was a foreshadowing of the end times abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12. The abomination of desolation that Jesus was referring to is future, the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12, not the historical foreshadowing by Antiochus in Daniel 11.

    The abomination of desolation will be the image made of the beast, placed in the temple, that comes alive and speaks. Didn't happen back at the time of the first century.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How would you possibly expect any interpretive integrity in a prophecy about the Messiah from a translation by those who reject the Messiah?

    Acts 13
    27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you're going to rely on the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, then you are not prepared as a watchman to be watching for our Lord Jesus' coming as He commanded us.
     
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  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It has never happened to this very day. The reason is because Jesus and His Apostles gave us specifics about the coming false one at the very end which has certain prophetic parameters that have never been fulfilled.

    One such example is the "man of sin" Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2 that will work wonders and signs which parallel our Lord's warnings about the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem that will work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive even His very elect. This same warning also is given again in Rev.13 about the "another beast" that comes working great signs and miracles, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men.

    No fake Christ has ever... done those specifics. Many have claimed to be Jesus Christ but never did they fulfill those great signs and miracles to deceive the whole world.
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There is more than one question found below.

    Mat 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
    Mat 24:2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."

    Mat 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

    ....................................................


    Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:



    Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



    Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


    Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

    Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

    (Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





    Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

    (Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

    ( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

    Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





    Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

    (Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



    Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

    (Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



    Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



    Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



    Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

    Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

    Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

    Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

    Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



    Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

    Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

    (Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



    Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



    Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

    (Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



    Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

    (Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



    Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

    Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

    (Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



    Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
    (Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


    The Coming of the Son of Man



    Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

    (Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



    Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

    Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

    (Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



    Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

    (Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


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    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


    Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
    Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


    John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.






    The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


    Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.



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    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I was only trying to show that some translations clearly see two princes in those verses. I just picked one at random at that link, there are other translations at that link which also see two princes in those verses, including the KJV, though you apparently disagree that the KJV does. Are you going to argue that these other translations that see two princes in those verses are also from those who reject the Messiah?
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus in Matt.24 & Mark 13 was pointing to the future temple the Jews plan to build at the end this world, the one the coming pseudo-Christ Jesus warned of in Matt.24:23-26 will come to sit in, the same warning Paul gave in 2 Thess.2. We know He was not pointing to the 2nd temple at His 1st coming because the stones of the Wailing Wall, which was part of the 2nd temple complex are still standing there today.

    Acts 22:19-20 was not, and will not be the final delivering up of Christ's servants to give a Testimony against the wicked. The Book of Joel is specifically pointing to the final witness Jesus mentioned that will take place at the very end of this world. Rev.13 reveals that the "dragon" will be given power over the saints in the future time of great tribulation Jesus taught. That is why that sign is there in Matt.24 and Mark 13, because Jesus was giving the 7 signs of the end of this world, which parallel the Seals of Rev.6. In Rev.11, candlesticks are mentioned with the description of God's two witnesses who are to appear in Jerusalem and prophesy against the wicked in the future tribulation. Per Rev.1, the candlesticks represent Churches.

    No, not all Bible scholars agree with that. The fullness of the Gentiles means until the very last Gentile that will, has heard and believed on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's about the filling of His Church here in this world all the way up to the day of His return. That is how long the Gentiles will be treading Jerusalem, which even Rev.11:1-2 is still future after the next temple is built in Jerusalem.





    Doesn't matter what the Jews of that time thought about the Dan.11 fulfillment, they were wrong, and it's easy to know since JESUS OF NAZARETH THE CHRIST gave the warning of the "abomination of desolation" from Dan.8; 9; and 11 about 200 years LATER AFTER ANTIOCHUS HAD BEEN DEAD!

    What you are adhering to is NOT Christian doctrine from God's Word, but Jewish doctrines from those who still have a veil over their hearts and minds.
     
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    This post was too lengthy for my tastes, thus I haven't read all the way through it. Could you remind me what the abomination that maketh desolate was during the first century? If you indicated what it was in this post, I guess I never got to that part.
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If it's not a translation by the Jewish Publication Society, I certainly wouldn't reject it.

    The KJV does not assign any distinction, as it decapitalizes "prince" in the Revelation verse I quoted earlier.

    Young's Literal Translation capitalizes both in Dan. 9:24. But I don't believe there is any significance to capitalization or the lack thereof, in any translation.

    The Hebrew word in both instances in the passage is the same.

    The fact remains: There is only one prince in the passage.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


    Take this verse for instance. King and kings are the same Greek word. Should we then assume King is meaning Jesus, and that kings is also meaning Jesus. IOW---King of Himselves, which I don't see making sense, rather than King of all other kings.

    Just because prince in Daniel 9:25-26 are the same Hebrew word, this doesn't automatically make them to be meaning the same person. It could be the same person, or it could not be the same person. Both conclusions are valid, yet only one of them is the truth.
     
  18. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    ^_^ ^_^I feel you here and agree.:oldthumbsup:I usually skip these types.
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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