God's will.

[Danhalen]

Is it moral to do God's will if it conflicts with your personal code of ethics? As a demonstration of what I am asking I present to you the women and children Amelekites. Was it wrong for a person to obey God and slaughter every last woman and child, along with the men, if it conflicted with their own code of ethics that forbade them from taking the life of an innocent?

I am sure this has been asked before, but I am curious about the current thoughts on this.

 

[Marek]

I don't believe an all-benevolent god would command people to slaughter others, so I cannot comment on your example. But for example, if God commanded man to not kill in any circumstance and your individual moral code allowed for it, then it would be wrong to kill. In the case that God exists, His moral code would definately override your own.

 

[Danhalen]

I don't believe an all-benevolent god would command people to slaughter others, so I cannot comment on your example.

God has commanded the killing of innocent children. If you take a more allegorical approach to the story, let's just assume that it is meant to be taken literally.

But for example, if God commanded man to not kill in any circumstance and your individual moral code allowed for it, then it would be wrong to kill. In the case that God exists, His moral code would definately override your own.

Does God's moral code override mine if God commands me to kill an innocent. A literal interpretation of the Old Testament will provide examples of this happening.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Is it moral to do God's will if it conflicts with your personal code of ethics? As a demonstration of what I am asking I present to you the women and children Amelekites. Was it wrong for a person to obey God and slaughter every last woman and child, along with the men, if it conflicted with their own code of ethics that forbade them from taking the life of an innocent?

I am sure this has been asked before, but I am curious about the current thoughts on this.

Obviously this was a people who was filled with sin . Remember this is the same God that would spare an entire nation for the righteousness of only one individual . You are assuming people innocent without knowing the facts and according to scripture , this group was far from innocent , and even at times sacrificed their own children to unknown idols .

Now let me ask you a question , is it better to be taken as a child into heaven with God for eternity or to either be sacrificed to a unknown god idol , eaten (yes they were also cannibals) or grow up to be cast into the lake of fire because of sin? God can see what we cannot and God always gave chance after chance of repentance . Have you ever read the Old testament in its entirety?

Its hard to see Gods mercy and longsuffering when we only take certain things from the bible out of context, and ignore history and theocracy and just how many times God used His prophets to warn people to turn from their sin before taking action.

 

[Marek]

God has commanded the killing of innocent children. If you take a more allegorical approach to the story, let's just assume that it is meant to be taken literally.

Does God's moral code override mine if God commands me to kill an innocent. A literal interpretation of the Old Testament will provide examples of this happening.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were strictly speaking of the God of the OT. I thought you might have been considering a more general notion of God. In the case of the former, if the God of the OT is a perfect being, then his commandments would be supreme, even if they opposed your own morals. Being a perfect being, His commandments would be perfect in which case, you would be wrong if you did not follow them. If this God we speak of is not a perfect being, and commanded you to do something against your morals, then it is a toss up. I suppose if you believe God has some control over your afterlife, then you would be wise to follow them, but if you believe He doesn't, then I think it would be okay to do what you feel.

 

[Danhalen]

Obviously this was a people who was filled with sin . Remember this is the same God that would spare an entire nation for the righteousness of only one individual . You are assuming people innocent without knowing the facts and according to scripture , this group was far from innocent , and even at times sacrificed their own children to unknown idols.

The only assumption I am making is the innocence of children.

Now let me ask you a question , is it better to be taken as a child into heaven with God for eternity or to either be sacrificed to a unknown god idol , eaten (yes they were also cannibals) or grow up to be cast into the lake of fire because of sin?

We may do better by adopting these children and allowing them the opportunity to find God.

God can see what we cannot and God always gave chance after chance of repentance . Have you ever read the Old testament in its entirety?

Not in sequence, but yes.

Its hard to see Gods mercy and longsuffering when we only take certain things from the bible out of context, and ignore history and theocracy and just how many times God used His prophets to warn people to turn from their sin before taking action.

I really just used that example as that, an example. We could just use a hypothetical situation. Let's say that God tells you one night to go slaughter everyone on the next block because they are all heathens. You go out and buy a gun. Then you systematically go home to home and kill all the people on the next block. I am talking about 4 month old babies and 10 year old girls here too, not just the adults. Maybe one of these children, let's call him Billy, wakes up as you point the gun to his head. Before you have the chance to pull the trigger, he begs you to let him live. Tears streaming down his face, he tells you that he will find God if only you spare his life. You turn, and point to his little sister, already dead. Then you put the gun back to his head. He's only 7, he could change. Do you follow God's instruction?

 

[Danhalen]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were strictly speaking of the God of the OT. I thought you might have been considering a more general notion of God. In the case of the former, if the God of the OT is a perfect being, then his commandments would be supreme, even if they opposed your own morals. Being a perfect being, His commandments would be perfect in which case, you would be wrong if you did not follow them. If this God we speak of is not a perfect being, and commanded you to do something against your morals, then it is a toss up. I suppose if you believe God has some control over your afterlife, then you would be wise to follow them, but if you believe He doesn't, then I think it would be okay to do what you feel.

I don't think that I could suspend my moral judgement when it came to the slaughter of children. Regardless of God's control over me. I would happily choose to spend an eternity of torment to spare the life of just one child.

Oh wow. 20 till 1. This place is addictive. Catch y'all tomorrow.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The only assumption I am making is the innocence of children.

We may do better by adopting these children and allowing them the opportunity to find God.

Not in sequence, but yes.

I really just used that example as that, an example. We could just use a hypothetical situation. Let's say that God tells you one night to go slaughter everyone on the next block because they are all heathens. You go out and buy a gun. Then you systematically go home to home and kill all the people on the next block. I am talking about 4 month old babies and 10 year old girls here too, not just the adults. Maybe one of these children, let's call him Billy, wakes up as you point the gun to his head. Before you have the chance to pull the trigger, he begs you to let him live. Tears streaming down his face, he tells you that he will find God if only you spare his life. You turn, and point to his little sister, already dead. Then you put the gun back to his head. He's only 7, he could change. Do you follow God's instruction?

Your hypothetical still ignores the theocracy , part of the purpose and function of Gods laws in that theocracy and it was to ensure the bloodline of the messiah , this couldnt be ensured that He come from a promised bloodline if there was intermingling of other cultures and beliefs .

 

[Salubri]

this couldnt be ensured that He come from a promised bloodline if there was intermingling of other cultures and beliefs

Sounds close to ethnic cleasing if ya ask me.

 

[Shane Roach]

The only assumption I am making is the innocence of children.

Well, children are not innocent. They are for the most part helpless compared to adults, but by no means are they innocent.

I liken this defense to the anti death penalty mentality. These folk performed the same behaviors and worse that you attribute to God's people. In the world as it existed at that time, finding parents for an entire ethnic group's children would have been impossible, and furthermore the point is moot, since all people die eventually anyway and God would judge those children according to their innocence, or guilt, depending on what He knows about their hearts and the eventual state their souls would have taken.

The bottom line is God does not accidentally send the innocent packing off to Hell. The Bible is quite clear that none that belong to Him will be lost, but were known before the foundation of the earth.

Your "mercy" is to saddle the victims of a violent society with a massive number of dispossesed children, or forbid the defense of one culture against another culture's depravities through military means, thus leaving the immoral cultures as the only ones who will rule since they don't care what you or anyone else might think about morality. You invent a hypothetical and cast everything in the light that seems most desperately wrong and attribute all the wrongness to the One who actually is never wrong.

 

[Freodin]

As yet, the most answers touched the question: "was it right what God commanded in OT times?". It does not come to a currect moral decision yet.

If God commanded you to go out and kill all the heathens in your neigborhood - would you do it?

Consider, a Israelite soldier in Saul´s time would not have been given all the rationalisations you just brought on. He would not be able to debate his commander or God himself on social or theological implications. He would be expected to obey.

Would you obey?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Is it moral to do God's will if it conflicts with your personal code of ethics? As a demonstration of what I am asking I present to you the women and children Amelekites. Was it wrong for a person to obey God and slaughter every last woman and child, along with the men, if it conflicted with their own code of ethics that forbade them from taking the life of an innocent?

I am sure this has been asked before, but I am curious about the current thoughts on this.

The assumptions are too many in that scenario.
For example:
Do we know if the children did not enter heaven? No.
Do we or others live forever? No, everyone dies the first death.
Are we to assume that heaven is better than this fallen world and state? Yes.
I see no moral dilemma in obeying the Author of good and it appears that the lesson learned of judgment of actions and how an entire society can be corrupt was more valuable than the risk of a remnant contaminating God's chosen people - whether that be through genetic behavior deviancies, by a draw to connect with heritage later, etc. is not known.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

As yet, the most answers touched the question: "was it right what God commanded in OT times?". It does not come to a currect moral decision yet.

If God commanded you to go out and kill all the heathens in your neigborhood - would you do it?

Consider, a Israelite soldier in Saul´s time would not have been given all the rationalisations you just brought on. He would not be able to debate his commander or God himself on social or theological implications. He would be expected to obey.

Would you obey?

Yes - and fortunately for everyone else, I know the sound of my Master's voice.

And I disagree with your blanket statement that one is not able to discuss with God. There are many examples where a debate with God takes place and I testify that I have debated with Him as well.

 

[Faithful nonbeliever]

I really just used that example as that, an example. We could just use a hypothetical situation. Let's say that God tells you one night to go slaughter everyone on the next block because they are all heathens. You go out and buy a gun. Then you systematically go home to home and kill all the people on the next block. I am talking about 4 month old babies and 10 year old girls here too, not just the adults. Maybe one of these children, let's call him Billy, wakes up as you point the gun to his head. Before you have the chance to pull the trigger, he begs you to let him live. Tears streaming down his face, he tells you that he will find God if only you spare his life. You turn, and point to his little sister, already dead. Then you put the gun back to his head. He's only 7, he could change. Do you follow God's instruction?

I'd like to hear answers to this, too bad no one seems interested in giving a straight answer. I somehow doubt that the people of the Old Testament times had complete knowledge. Did god command them to murder everyone, and proceed to give a debriefing of why he had given such orders? Seems like alot of the religious would do well for a dictatorship.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I'd like to hear answers to this, too bad no one seems interested in giving a straight answer. I somehow doubt that the people of the Old Testament times had complete knowledge. Did god command them to murder everyone, and proceed to give a debriefing of why he had given such orders? Seems like alot of the religious would do well for a dictatorship.

I didn't answer it, because it is a loaded question/scenario.
Examples:
Have you stopped beating your wife?
You're a prison guard that has death row duty, do you flip the switch in order to carry out a sentence or do you want to review the trial cases and determine his innocence yourself instead of being a mindless automaton?
Loaded for a reason, tainted water, whatever you wish to call it - I don't play along with those.

 

[Faithful nonbeliever]

Do you believe that god presented his case with those who have been commanded to do such acts like these before then? I guess your answer would be that you would require additional information correct? I'd think it plausible that a god like the one of the OT wouldn't find it fit to supply any. I wonder what action followers would take?

 

[Faithful nonbeliever]

And yes I have stopped beathing my wife, her housework regimen has greatly improved.

J/K, so.....I guess I haven't stopped.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I wonder what action followers would take?

No need to wonder, the answer is recorded.

 

[Wakeup2god]

In Old Testament times the ruke was an eye for an eye etc. You could have picked another argument from the book of Joshua chapter 7 where a man (Achan) and all of his family are stoned because of the sin of that one man! He coveted some gold that he found having been told to not take anything. Is that fair? God deals with His own as strictly as He does others.

Freodin says

Consider, a Israelite soldier in Saul´s time would not have been given all the rationalisations you just brought on. He would not be able to debate his commander or God himself on social or theological implications. He would be expected to obey.

Well how much worse the sins of the Germans against the Jews in WWII! They would have been able to debate on social and theoretical implications and they still carried out attrocities. Also lets consider the slaughter of the native Americans - men, women and children...

At that time God had to show the nations who worshipped other gods that He was and is supreme. It was a case of kill or be killed. Since then men have made themselves into gods and ordered the murder of millions.

Now things have changed. For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only son.... When Jesus died he descended into hell and set the captives free. I'm sure I'll be surprised as to who is and who isnt in heaven when I get there. This God that you try to depict as an angry violent judgemental tyrant loves His creation but hates the sin. he loves the souls more than the flesh and bones, that's why He allows trials and temptations and sometimes uses us as examples of His soverenty.

 

[Danhalen]

Well, children are not innocent. They are for the most part helpless compared to adults, but by no means are they innocent.

So, would you kill a helpless child if God commanded it?

I liken this defense to the anti death penalty mentality. These folk performed the same behaviors and worse that you attribute to God's people.

So killing the helpless children is just?

In the world as it existed at that time, finding parents for an entire ethnic group's children would have been impossible,

Oh, I see, they couldn't be bothered with actually helping the helpless children. Better to kill the children off like cockroaches than to inconvenience ourselves.

and furthermore the point is moot, since all people die eventually anyway and God would judge those children according to their innocence, or guilt, depending on what He knows about their hearts and the eventual state their souls would have taken.

By this logic, all life is moot. Why bother with giving anyone life in the first place if God knows our hearts from the time eternal.

The bottom line is God does not accidentally send the innocent packing off to Hell. The Bible is quite clear that none that belong to Him will be lost, but were known before the foundation of the earth.

I used the Amalekites as an example. Suppose the Rwandan genocides were commanded by God. What then?

Your "mercy" is to saddle the victims of a violent society with a massive number of dispossesed children, or forbid the defense of one culture against another culture's depravities through military means, thus leaving the immoral cultures as the only ones who will rule since they don't care what you or anyone else might think about morality.

Your "mercy" is to kill, indiscriminately, all living things, including the helpless children. Your morality is shown by your actions. Looks like I am going to spend my eternity in Hell for disobedience. I would let God make a martyr of me for the children.

You invent a hypothetical and cast everything in the light that seems most desperately wrong and attribute all the wrongness to the One who actually is never wrong.

Do me a favor, give Billy a kiss on the forehead and tell him I love him before you pull the trigger.