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God's will and quantum mechanics

Halbhh

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I put an important note at the end about the other part, but for this fun speculation about how God relates with the physics of this Universe (which physics of course God created), I can offer one thing re Why is physics consistent across the universe: my thought is it just makes the most sense. Some more theological thoughts: physics is certainly from God, is the will of God... While we can't really guess whether He maintains it in the sense of constant allowing it to exist, or something instead more like a plant we ourselves might plant: it bears fruit and eventually one day we take it down in order to put a new plant in when we choose to.... Which is the case? We don't know. But, just as God intended, physics appears to be like a perfect and elegant machine, that operates on its own. That fits the key requirement in scripture that God's will for us is to come to faith, which specifically is to believe ahead of time, without seeing proof... (see Hebrews chapter 11 for instance) -- i.e., if physics too obviously pointed to God, then we would not need 'faith' to believe in God, just like we don't need faith to believe the moon orbits the Earth. But God wants faith. Therefore, physics must appear that it operates on its own....no matter what advanced intricate knowledge we gain in it...for now, before Christ comes again.

( just an important note about your response to diamond7 re the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you had written above: "When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, God said they would become like God" Actually this sentence has a very significant error, and it will be a very important correction to make (see the actual text wording there). So important that editing the post is best even here days later.... Should I assume you need to rethink the following thoughts after that?)
 
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Yuppert

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You’re right. I slipped up when I said that God said they would become like God. It was actually the serpent that said that. But that part of the serpent’s message was not a lie because after they ate God said that the man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. So I don't think I need to rethink any of the following thoughts, unless I'm still missing something here.
 
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Hans Blaster

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You are free to believe all of this, but physics has no need of any god to explain it. No "god factor" need be included in any equation or divine will needed to explain anything. No faith is required for comprehension.

Personally, I have no need for any being that would deliberately hide as you describe. I do not find faith a useful or positive attribute.
 
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Halbhh

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but physics has no need of any god to explain it.
You can read why that has to be so, in my post, if you like. If God was obviously shown in physics or how this universe exists, then we'd have to throw out the New Testament, as God being obvious would extensively contradict the New Testament in central, key ways. We aren't saved by seeing evidence and then admitting it, but by trusting in Christ, (e.g. -- in His teachings) without seeing evidence.
 
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SelfSim

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.. We aren't saved by seeing evidence and then admitting it,
i) 'Saved' from what? A belief? ... Better off just deleting the belief in the first place!

ii) Science is all about using evidence to make predictions capable of demonstrating consistent practical usefulness. Not admitting to seeing that evidence, is setting onself up to obstruct the progress of practicality.
 
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Halbhh

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Right. And, being saved from one's own wrongs through divine help is not a science topic of course. :=)
 
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SelfSim

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Right. And, being saved from one's own wrongs through divine help is not a science topic of course. :=)
If they are 'one's own wrongs', then its up to that 'one' to do something about it .. for themselves .. by definition.
 
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Hans Blaster

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And I threw out the NT without any need to use physics.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Right. And, being saved from one's own wrongs through divine help is not a science topic of course. :=)
"Saved from one's own wrongs..." is an interesting way of putting it. There's no evidence that belief 'saves' (stops) one from doing wrong, or from the consequences of wrongdoing. So it comes across as a veiled threat (believe to avoid divine retribution) - that only has meaning for believers in divine retribution - who already believe themselves 'saved'... IOW, it's a pointless veiled threat.

And, of course, it won't save one from the retribution of any other of the thousands of vengeful, jealous, and/or cruel gods that are or have been subjects of belief
 
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Bob Crowley

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I've been reading a bit about quantum physics lately, from the layman's perspective mind you.

I suppose I've got a bee in my bonnet due an old pastor's prediction that he thought we'd learn to teleport, which would have to be a by product of quantum entanglement. So I've been trying to get a bit of a handle on it.

But I don't think God would leave His plan dependent on collapsing wave functions for items that are about a femto or atto meter across (10 to the minus 15 or minus 18 metres across). I also fail to see how consciousness ("I am") can be the by-product of a bunch of collapsing wave functions either.
 
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childeye 2

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Your post brings this to mind.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Conclusion: The Spirit is Eternal and the natural has a beginning. The natural is corruptible through its ignorance of spiritual meaning/value.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
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Neutral Observer

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Ah, but this is where you're wrong. If we're to have free will then God MUST have designed reality in the form of a collapsing wave function. Because for us to have free will God's creation must have begun with the "potential" for every possible outcome of every possible choice that mankind ever has, or will make. If we were truly created with free will then "in the beginning" every choice that we could ever have made, must've truly been available for us to make.

But as time progresses and choices are made that potentiality must collapse as a consequence of the ever diminishing possible outcomes, and that collapse must look exactly like a collapsing wave function. Now whether that collapse takes place in an actual physical substrate may be impossible for us to ever know, but it must take place none-the-less. If free will actually exists then reality must give the appearance of an ever collapsing wave function.

Now as to the matter of consciousness your guess is as good as mine.
 
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Chriliman

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Im not sure Romans 1:20 aligns with what you’re saying here.

Also Hebrews 11:1 suggests faith is simply being certain of what you hope for, or trusting in the promises made to you, so to speak. IOW, you need some degree of evidence in order to have faith, but I think God gets greater enjoyment when people have faith based on minimal evidence, it shows a trusting, softer, less critical heart.
 
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Halbhh

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Well, now we are leaving physics to get to just theology alone, but the answer is that Hebrews 11:1 is true (of course), so that the only way to fit them together is to notice a significant difference between 'undeniable' evidence vs instead what is subtle or sublime. Undeniable evidence would obviate Hebrews 11:1 and John 20:29. Faith isn't to literally see God (or not yet!) (reference for instance John 1:18), but instead:

 
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Halbhh

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There's no evidence that belief 'saves' (stops) one from doing wrong,
Ah, consider the analogy (it's an exact one actually): A small child notices that their Parent is watching....and refrains from doing a wrong they were about to do (had decided they wanted to do), knowing they will be seen....

Yes, I can attest, this works quite well, both with 5 year olds and also with adults.... Being seen, one realizes that a wrong will be accounted for (a classic wording for this in the text is to 'fear the Lord', meaning to fear to do wrongs because one realizes through belief that one's wrongs will be seen, not at all possible to hide).

Of course, this isn't the only reason we do what is right. It's more like a backstop, or guard rail. You don't need a guard rail most of the time, but when you do, it might be a life saver.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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A collapsing wavefunction has a probabilistic outcome - can you explain exactly what you mean by 'free will' in this context?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Sure, that's the theory, and it's been suggested that it may have been an advantageous factor in early religious societies - but I'm saying I don't know of contemporary evidence to support that in contemporary societies. Secular societies don't appear to have more wrongdoing than religious ones (except where the religious society has a punitive earthly regime).
 
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Halbhh

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There's been a gradual trend over millenia of increasing degree of civilization, though with a lot of 2 steps upward then 2 or 3 downward. And of course a given nation/society can begin to degenerate. But despite the many failing societies, overall there's been an upward trend. That's what the OT is about, if you read through. The effort to establish and strengthen the Rule Of Law. Read it through and you'll see that very clearly.

The effort. The struggle of God to bring us around.

But even here in the U.S. we get moments when the Rule of Law seems at real risk, in danger.... Trump was a strong test of it.

God's solution is to change our hearts, -- as we read that's what Christ came to do -- and then save all who change and walk in the right, as Christ taught in detail, into eternal life.
 
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