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God's will and quantum mechanics

Halbhh

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My theory is not that God is constantly micromanaging the laws of physics, but that, first of all, he selected, out of all the laws of physics that are possibilities in any possible universe, that one set of laws that most ideally fit the plan he had for this world, and then he didn’t have to do anything extra to create the laws and create the infrastructure to make the laws work; the desired laws were the actual laws merely by virtue of being the only potential left when all other possibilities were eliminated. Why are the laws laws? Why are they consistent across the universe? Scientists describe the laws emerging from fields or from superstrings, but those things (if they exist) exist at a level far below the entire concepts of matter and energy and space and even time perhaps. What actually exists at that level? Could it actually be defined by the will of God, and not just more physical, material realities, like turtles all the way down?

I put an important note at the end about the other part, but for this fun speculation about how God relates with the physics of this Universe (which physics of course God created), I can offer one thing re Why is physics consistent across the universe: my thought is it just makes the most sense. Some more theological thoughts: physics is certainly from God, is the will of God... While we can't really guess whether He maintains it in the sense of constant allowing it to exist, or something instead more like a plant we ourselves might plant: it bears fruit and eventually one day we take it down in order to put a new plant in when we choose to.... Which is the case? We don't know. But, just as God intended, physics appears to be like a perfect and elegant machine, that operates on its own. That fits the key requirement in scripture that God's will for us is to come to faith, which specifically is to believe ahead of time, without seeing proof... (see Hebrews chapter 11 for instance) -- i.e., if physics too obviously pointed to God, then we would not need 'faith' to believe in God, just like we don't need faith to believe the moon orbits the Earth. But God wants faith. Therefore, physics must appear that it operates on its own....no matter what advanced intricate knowledge we gain in it...for now, before Christ comes again.

( just an important note about your response to diamond7 re the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you had written above: "When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, God said they would become like God" Actually this sentence has a very significant error, and it will be a very important correction to make (see the actual text wording there). So important that editing the post is best even here days later.... Should I assume you need to rethink the following thoughts after that?)
 
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Yuppert

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You’re right. I slipped up when I said that God said they would become like God. It was actually the serpent that said that. But that part of the serpent’s message was not a lie because after they ate God said that the man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. So I don't think I need to rethink any of the following thoughts, unless I'm still missing something here.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I put an important note at the end about the other part, but for this fun speculation about how God relates with the physics of this Universe (which physics of course God created), I can offer one thing re Why is physics consistent across the universe: my thought is it just makes the most sense. Some more theological thoughts: physics is certainly from God, is the will of God... While we can't really guess whether He maintains it in the sense of constant allowing it to exist, or something instead more like a plant we ourselves might plant: it bears fruit and eventually one day we take it down in order to put a new plant in when we choose to.... Which is the case? We don't know. But, just as God intended, physics appears to be like a perfect and elegant machine, that operates on its own. That fits the key requirement in scripture that God's will for us is to come to faith, which specifically is to believe ahead of time, without seeing proof... (see Hebrews chapter 11 for instance) -- i.e., if physics too obviously pointed to God, then we would not need 'faith' to believe in God, just like we don't need faith to believe the moon orbits the Earth. But God wants faith. Therefore, physics must appear that it operates on its own....no matter what advanced intricate knowledge we gain in it...for now, before Christ comes again.

( just an important note about your response to diamond7 re the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you had written above: "When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, God said they would become like God" Actually this sentence has a very significant error, and it will be a very important correction to make (see the actual text wording there). So important that editing the post is best even here days later.... Should I assume you need to rethink the following thoughts after that?)

You are free to believe all of this, but physics has no need of any god to explain it. No "god factor" need be included in any equation or divine will needed to explain anything. No faith is required for comprehension.

Personally, I have no need for any being that would deliberately hide as you describe. I do not find faith a useful or positive attribute.
 
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Halbhh

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but physics has no need of any god to explain it.
You can read why that has to be so, in my post, if you like. If God was obviously shown in physics or how this universe exists, then we'd have to throw out the New Testament, as God being obvious would extensively contradict the New Testament in central, key ways. We aren't saved by seeing evidence and then admitting it, but by trusting in Christ, (e.g. -- in His teachings) without seeing evidence.
 
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SelfSim

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.. We aren't saved by seeing evidence and then admitting it,
i) 'Saved' from what? A belief? ... Better off just deleting the belief in the first place!

ii) Science is all about using evidence to make predictions capable of demonstrating consistent practical usefulness. Not admitting to seeing that evidence, is setting onself up to obstruct the progress of practicality.
 
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Halbhh

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i) 'Saved' from what? A belief? ... Better off just deleting the belief in the first place!

ii) Science is all about using evidence to make predictions capable of demonstrating consistent practical usefulness. Not admitting to seeing that evidence, is setting onself up to obstruct the progress of practicality.
Right. And, being saved from one's own wrongs through divine help is not a science topic of course. :=)
 
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SelfSim

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Right. And, being saved from one's own wrongs through divine help is not a science topic of course. :=)
If they are 'one's own wrongs', then its up to that 'one' to do something about it .. for themselves .. by definition.
 
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Hans Blaster

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You can read why that has to be so, in my post, if you like. If God was obviously shown in physics or how this universe exists, then we'd have to throw out the New Testament, as God being obvious would extensively contradict the New Testament in central, key ways. We aren't saved by seeing evidence and then admitting it, but by trusting in Christ, (e.g. -- in His teachings) without seeing evidence.

And I threw out the NT without any need to use physics.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Right. And, being saved from one's own wrongs through divine help is not a science topic of course. :=)
"Saved from one's own wrongs..." is an interesting way of putting it. There's no evidence that belief 'saves' (stops) one from doing wrong, or from the consequences of wrongdoing. So it comes across as a veiled threat (believe to avoid divine retribution) - that only has meaning for believers in divine retribution - who already believe themselves 'saved'... IOW, it's a pointless veiled threat.

And, of course, it won't save one from the retribution of any other of the thousands of vengeful, jealous, and/or cruel gods that are or have been subjects of belief ;)
 
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Bob Crowley

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I've been reading a bit about quantum physics lately, from the layman's perspective mind you.

I suppose I've got a bee in my bonnet due an old pastor's prediction that he thought we'd learn to teleport, which would have to be a by product of quantum entanglement. So I've been trying to get a bit of a handle on it.

But I don't think God would leave His plan dependent on collapsing wave functions for items that are about a femto or atto meter across (10 to the minus 15 or minus 18 metres across). I also fail to see how consciousness ("I am") can be the by-product of a bunch of collapsing wave functions either.
 
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childeye 2

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My theory is not that God is constantly micromanaging the laws of physics, but that, first of all, he selected, out of all the laws of physics that are possibilities in any possible universe, that one set of laws that most ideally fit the plan he had for this world, and then he didn’t have to do anything extra to create the laws and create the infrastructure to make the laws work; the desired laws were the actual laws merely by virtue of being the only potential left when all other possibilities were eliminated. Why are the laws laws? Why are they consistent across the universe? Scientists describe the laws emerging from fields or from superstrings, but those things (if they exist) exist at a level far below the entire concepts of matter and energy and space and even time perhaps. What actually exists at that level? Could it actually be defined by the will of God, and not just more physical, material realities, like turtles all the way down?



Actually, I have studied Hebrew. Yes, God speaks creation into existence. But what does that actually mean? Did he utter sound waves from his mouth? Jesus is described as the Word, but he is not a five-letter word or any spoken word. A word, from God’s perspective, means the expression of God’s will in any way that makes his will perceivable, explicit, knowable, and known. Jesus is God’s will and God himself embodied in the flesh. He is the Word because he is the means by which God makes himself known, revealing everything that God is and everything he desires and everything he shares with us. So, in the beginning, God spoke; he made his will singular and real, and I’m just suggesting he did it by subtraction of all the possibilities that did not match his purposes and plans, rather than by addition of something invented ad hoc.



When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, God said they would become like God, knowing good and evil. If being like God means knowing both good and evil, then God knows both good and evil. How could that dichotomy be a bad thing? Adam and Eve already knew good, didn’t they? They were created perfect, in complete alignment with the will of God. What changed? Some have suggested that what they gained at the tree was an experiential knowledge of evil to go along with their previous knowledge of only good things, but that would hardly make them like God. I believe the word “knowledge” in this case expresses more than just knowing, but an authoritative determination of good and evil. What they gained was nothing but the attitude of self-appointed judges, deciding what is good and what is evil based on their own opinions. (Eve looked at the tree and decided that in her own judgment it was good for food and desirable for gaining wisdom, so she ate). Eating the fruit didn’t magically change them and give them something new as if it was a vitamin or poison within the fruit; the act of eating was itself the self-appointed determination of good and evil. They became like God, making judgments that some things are good and some are evil; but they did not make those judgments from the same divine storehouse of infinite, perfect wisdom and understanding that God has, and that is why man is perishing.

My theory could also have something to say to the conundrum of sin entering a world in which God's will is sovereign. If God is sovereign, is he responsible for sin? Why did he create the tree if he knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and bring evil into God's perfect world and ruin everything? Why does God allow evil and suffering to exist and bad things to happen to good people? Perhaps all these things stem from pockets where God allowed some dominoes to remain standing and in play, where we, if we were God, think we wouldn't have. But then God is not the cause of that evil; he simply did not rule it out. And he didn't rule it out because a) he desired to give us the freedom to serve him as children, not as robots or slaves (and giving children freedom sometimes means letting them make mistakes and sometimes suffer the consequences of their mistakes), and b) because it did not, in fact, ruin everything, but set the world on a course which, in the end, will be all the more to God's glory and praise for having saved us by grace.



Chaos theory reveals that we can never nail down the universe to one fated future, pre-ordained by all that came before. That’s simply a bigger example of what I was describing at the quantum level. It leaves huge swaths of the future course of creation within the realm of multiple potentialities, and God can choose from those possible courses the one that best serves his purposes, and in this way he is intervening in history, but without the need for a single miraculous contravention of the laws of nature. And he declares the end from the beginning, he makes all these choices from his position outside of time, which actually makes it so much easier. Why? Because if he was intervening in history from within history, every time he might use a miracle to change the course of my life, he would have to rethink and replan the whole future course of my life and of all subsequent history to account for everything that’s going to change. But if he works outside of time, then, in a logical sense, all of his interventions throughout all of history are planned out simultaneously (so to speak), and if he does it by subtraction of potentialities that don’t match his will rather than addition of something new, then all subsequent history does not need to be rewritten; it just gets chosen from a reduced set of potentialities.
Your post brings this to mind.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Conclusion: The Spirit is Eternal and the natural has a beginning. The natural is corruptible through its ignorance of spiritual meaning/value.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
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Neutral Observer

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But I don't think God would leave His plan dependent on collapsing wave functions for items that are about a femto or atto meter across (10 to the minus 15 or minus 18 metres across). I also fail to see how consciousness ("I am") can be the by-product of a bunch of collapsing wave functions either.
Ah, but this is where you're wrong. If we're to have free will then God MUST have designed reality in the form of a collapsing wave function. Because for us to have free will God's creation must have begun with the "potential" for every possible outcome of every possible choice that mankind ever has, or will make. If we were truly created with free will then "in the beginning" every choice that we could ever have made, must've truly been available for us to make.

But as time progresses and choices are made that potentiality must collapse as a consequence of the ever diminishing possible outcomes, and that collapse must look exactly like a collapsing wave function. Now whether that collapse takes place in an actual physical substrate may be impossible for us to ever know, but it must take place none-the-less. If free will actually exists then reality must give the appearance of an ever collapsing wave function.

Now as to the matter of consciousness your guess is as good as mine.
 
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Chriliman

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You can read why that has to be so, in my post, if you like. If God was obviously shown in physics or how this universe exists, then we'd have to throw out the New Testament, as God being obvious would extensively contradict the New Testament in central, key ways. We aren't saved by seeing evidence and then admitting it, but by trusting in Christ, (e.g. -- in His teachings) without seeing evidence.
Im not sure Romans 1:20 aligns with what you’re saying here.

Also Hebrews 11:1 suggests faith is simply being certain of what you hope for, or trusting in the promises made to you, so to speak. IOW, you need some degree of evidence in order to have faith, but I think God gets greater enjoyment when people have faith based on minimal evidence, it shows a trusting, softer, less critical heart.
 
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Halbhh

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Im not sure Romans 1:20 aligns with what you’re saying here.

Also Hebrews 11:1 suggests faith is simply being certain of what you hope for, or trusting in the promises made to you, so to speak. IOW, you need some degree of evidence in order to have faith, but I think God gets greater enjoyment when people have faith based on minimal evidence, it shows a trusting, softer, less critical heart.
Well, now we are leaving physics to get to just theology alone, but the answer is that Hebrews 11:1 is true (of course), so that the only way to fit them together is to notice a significant difference between 'undeniable' evidence vs instead what is subtle or sublime. Undeniable evidence would obviate Hebrews 11:1 and John 20:29. Faith isn't to literally see God (or not yet!) (reference for instance John 1:18), but instead:

 
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Halbhh

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There's no evidence that belief 'saves' (stops) one from doing wrong,
Ah, consider the analogy (it's an exact one actually): A small child notices that their Parent is watching....and refrains from doing a wrong they were about to do (had decided they wanted to do), knowing they will be seen....

Yes, I can attest, this works quite well, both with 5 year olds and also with adults.... :) Being seen, one realizes that a wrong will be accounted for (a classic wording for this in the text is to 'fear the Lord', meaning to fear to do wrongs because one realizes through belief that one's wrongs will be seen, not at all possible to hide).

Of course, this isn't the only reason we do what is right. :) It's more like a backstop, or guard rail. You don't need a guard rail most of the time, but when you do, it might be a life saver.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Ah, but this is where you're wrong. If we're to have free will then God MUST have designed reality in the form of a collapsing wave function. Because for us to have free will God's creation must have begun with the "potential" for every possible outcome of every possible choice that mankind ever has, or will make. If we were truly created with free will then "in the beginning" every choice that we could ever have made, must've truly been available for us to make.

But as time progresses and choices are made that potentiality must collapse as a consequence of the ever diminishing possible outcomes, and that collapse must look exactly like a collapsing wave function. Now whether that collapse takes place in an actual physical substrate may be impossible for us to ever know, but it must take place none-the-less. If free will actually exists then reality must give the appearance of an ever collapsing wave function.

Now as to the matter of consciousness your guess is as good as mine.
A collapsing wavefunction has a probabilistic outcome - can you explain exactly what you mean by 'free will' in this context?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Ah, consider the analogy (it's an exact one actually): A small child notices that their Parent is watching....and refrains from doing a wrong they were about to do (had decided they wanted to do), knowing they will be seen....

Yes, I can attest, this works quite well, both with 5 year olds and also with adults.... :) Being seen, one realizes that a wrong will be accounted for (a classic wording for this in the text is to 'fear the Lord', meaning to fear to do wrongs because one realizes through belief that one's wrongs will be seen, not at all possible to hide).

Of course, this isn't the only reason we do what is right. :) It's more like a backstop, or guard rail. You don't need a guard rail most of the time, but when you do, it might be a life saver.
Sure, that's the theory, and it's been suggested that it may have been an advantageous factor in early religious societies - but I'm saying I don't know of contemporary evidence to support that in contemporary societies. Secular societies don't appear to have more wrongdoing than religious ones (except where the religious society has a punitive earthly regime).
 
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Halbhh

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Sure, that's the theory, and it's been suggested that it may have been an advantageous factor in early religious societies - but I'm saying I don't know of contemporary evidence to support that in contemporary societies. Secular societies don't appear to have more wrongdoing than religious ones (except where the religious society has a punitive earthly regime).
There's been a gradual trend over millenia of increasing degree of civilization, though with a lot of 2 steps upward then 2 or 3 downward. And of course a given nation/society can begin to degenerate. But despite the many failing societies, overall there's been an upward trend. That's what the OT is about, if you read through. The effort to establish and strengthen the Rule Of Law. Read it through and you'll see that very clearly.

The effort. The struggle of God to bring us around.

But even here in the U.S. we get moments when the Rule of Law seems at real risk, in danger.... Trump was a strong test of it.

God's solution is to change our hearts, -- as we read that's what Christ came to do -- and then save all who change and walk in the right, as Christ taught in detail, into eternal life.
 
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