God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

[Clare73]

GOD will decide whom HE will count as members of EACH of the twelve tribes of Israel, when HE brings ALL of them back to the land, and, after purging out the rebels from their midst, will bring ALL the rest of them to repentance and a true faith in Himself, as he PROMISED to do.

The scriptures in which GOD made these UNCONDITIONAL promises were quoted in the multi-part OP.

Those who deny that God will ACTUALLY do this are calling HIM a liar.

Which return was fulfilled under Ezra, when the Temple was rebuilt, the walls were rebuilt, and the people re-dedicated themselves to God, with much rejoicing, and idolatry was never again found in Israel.
God's promises can be, and are, fulfilled in a remnant. (Romans 11:1-6, Romans 11:23-25).

We have no Biblical warrant for a second fulfillment. That is simply personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) which are subject to more than one interpretation.

 

[Clare73]

God EXPLICITLY told Abraham, "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete." (Genesis 15:13-1)

And there is no scriptural warrant whatsoever for claiming that Bible prophecy is never literal. In your vain attempt to prove this false idea, you keep quoting a part of a sentence, the rest of which EXPLICITLY says that some prophecy is indeed literal.

There are two rules concerning fulfilled prophecy that run through the entire Bible.

Without a single exception in the entire Bible, EVERY prophetic dream of vision for which we have an inspired statement that it had been fulfilled, had a meaning entirely different from what the prophet saw.

And again, without a single exception in the entire Bible, Every explicit statement of a coming event that we are told has been fulfilled, was fulfilled literally, exactly as the pronouncement was made.

So your rule that all prophecy in the Bible was given in "riddles" is MANIFESTLY false.

But the problem with what you are saying is not merely that you have an erroneous notion abut the meaning of Bible prophecy. The problem is that your "principle" makes God out to be a liar. For you are claiming that God had no intention of actually doing what He so clearly and repeatedly promised to do. Even God himself said that if He were not going to actually keep the promises He made, He would have been lying wjen He made them.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19)

And:

"If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David:" (Psalm 89:30-35)

Notice that in this second quotation, God also EXPLICITLY said that His promis was so absolute that EVEN SIN could not cancel it.

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29)

And they are fulfilled in a remnant (Romans 11:1-5, Romans 11:23-25).

 

[BABerean2]

When a PART of a passage of scripture EXPLICITLY says the very opposite of what YOU imagine the rest of it MEANS, who is wrong? YOU, or God?

When a person points one finger at others, they have three more pointing back in their direction.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[Guojing]

So were unbelieving Jews.

A believing gentile in time past need to join Israel to be under the covenant.

 

[Biblewriter]

Being in Christ, we would be members of the household of Judah.

But there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and as Abrahalm's seed, we are heirs according to the promise of Genesis 17:19. (Galatians 3:28-29)

There is not even one passage, anywhere in the entire Bible, that even suggests that being in Christ makes someone a member of the household of Judah. That is not JUST nothing but a human idea, it is not even an interpretation of the meaning of even one scripture. It is a mere human INVENTION, fabricated out of thin air.

 

[Biblewriter]

When a person points one finger at others, they have three more pointing back in their direction.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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The difference between the scriptures we keep quoting is this.

The scriptures you keep quoting never, even once, actually SAY what you claim they MEAN.

And the scriptures I keep quoting ACTUALLY SAY exactly the OPPOSITE of what you imagine these other scriptures to MEAN.

 

[Biblewriter]

Which return was fulfilled under Ezra, when the Temple was rebuilt, the walls were rebuilt, and the people re-dedicated themselves to God, with much rejoicing, and idolatry was never again found in Israel.
God's promises can be, and are, fulfilled in a remnant. (Romans 11:1-6, Romans 11:23-25).

We have no Biblical warrant for a second fulfillment. That is simply personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) which are subject to more than one interpretation.

The return of only a remnant of just Judah, is most certainly NOT a fulfillment of a prophecy about a return of absolutely all of Israel.

And a return that took place long before the first coming of Christ is most certainly NOT a fulfillment of a prophecy about a return AFTER He comes in power and glory to judge the wicked.

We most certainly have, not only a Biblical warrant, for a future return of absolutely all of Israel to their ancient homeland, but EXPLICITLY STATED SCRIPTURE.

Your claim that this is merely "personal interpretation of prophetic riddles" Is completely false. Saying it over and over does not change the falsehood of that claim.

I have quoted the scriptures that EXPLICITLY say this, in PLAIN, CLEAR words. YOU are using YOUR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION to claim that these scriptures do not MEAN what they SAY. THAT is unacceptable in ANYONE who is even PRETENDING to teach he scriptures.

 

[BABerean2]

The difference between the scriptures we keep quoting is this.

The scriptures you keep quoting never, even once, actually SAY what you claim they MEAN.

And the scriptures I keep quoting ACTUALLY SAY exactly the OPPOSITE of what you imagine these other scriptures to MEAN.

We can let the unbiased witnesses here make the decision based on what is plainly written in the Word of God found below.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
(Written to a church mainly made up of former Gentiles.)

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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[Clare73]

A believing gentile in time past need to join Israel to be under the covenant.

Agreed. . .in time past.

Your point?

 

[Biblewriter]

We can let the unbiased witnesses here make the decision based on what is plainly written in the Word of God found below.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
(Written to a church mainly made up of former Gentiles.)

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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The only witness that counts is what the Bible actually SAYS. And the multi-part OP in this thread gave the UNDENIABLE witness of MANY passages from the Bible that say exactly the opposite of what you choose to INTERPRET these few scriptures to MEAN.

I cannot overstress the HARD FACT that not even ONE of the passages you keep quoting ever, even once, actually SAYS what you have CHOSEN to believe they MEAN.

 

[BABerean2]

The only witness that counts is what the Bible actually SAYS. And the multi-part OP in this thread gave the UNDENIABLE witness of MANY passages from the Bible that say exactly the opposite of what you choose to INTERPRET these few scriptures to MEAN.

I cannot overstress the HARD FACT that not even ONE of the passages you keep quoting ever, even once, actually SAYS what you have CHOSEN to believe they MEAN.

If those verses are not about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary, feel free to explain to us what they really mean.


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[Clare73]

There is not even one passage, anywhere in the entire Bible, that even suggests that being in Christ makes someone a member of the household of Judah. That is not JUST nothing but a human idea, it is not even an interpretation of the meaning of even one scripture. It is a mere human INVENTION, fabricated out of thin air.

I know, that was just a junk answer to a junk question from someone else.

 

[Clare73]

The return of only a remnant of just Judah, is most certainly NOT a fulfillment of a prophecy about a return of absolutely all of Israel.

And yet the irrevocable gifts and call made to absolsutely all Israel are fulfilled only in a remnant (Romans 11:29, Romans 11:1-6).

The remnant returning was not just Judah--Ezra 6:17.

The northern tribes were not lost in the exile, for we find them in

prophecies relating to the return from exile:

--Jeremiah 3:18, Jeremiah 31:27, Jeremiah 31:31 (where Israel is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)
--Ezekiel 37:15-22 (where Ephraim is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes--Isaiah 7:17),

return from exile: Ezra 6:17

NT: Acts 26:7; James 1:1

 

[Guojing]

Agreed. . .in time past.

Your point?

So gentiles have to go thru 2 steps, unlike Jews.

Join Israel
Believe in God

Jews only needed to believe in God, and God sent his Son to persuade them to believe in him, with signs and wonders.

 

[Guojing]

If those verses are not about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary, feel free to explain to us what they really mean.


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When do you think the Old Covenant of Law started for Israel?

Was it when Moses was given the 10 commandments?

 

[Clare73]

So gentiles have to go thru 2 steps, unlike Jews.

Join Israel
Believe in God

Jews only needed to believe in God, and God sent his Son to persuade them to believe in him, with signs and wonders.

In the OT, that's how it worked.

 

[Guojing]

In the OT, that's how it worked.

The post that you replied to was meant for another person, so he was the one that need to understand that.

God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

 

[BABerean2]

When do you think the Old Covenant of Law started for Israel?

Was it when Moses was given the 10 commandments?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


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[Guojing]

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


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Do you know which chapter of the OT was that covenant confirmed with Israel?

 

[BABerean2]

Do you know which chapter of the OT was that covenant confirmed with Israel?

It it recorded in the Book of Exodus, and also below.

Exo_24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.



I prefer the account below, because it is clear and concise.


Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Deu 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount saying,
Deu 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
Deu 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deu 5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Deu 5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
Deu 5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Deu 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
Deu 5:26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
Deu 5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deu 5:30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
Deu 5:31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
Deu 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
Deu 5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.


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