God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

from scratch · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
Paul includes lists in Romans 7, Romans 13, 1Cor 6 and elsewhere.

Paul states that the Christian faith "establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

Paul quotes from the "unit of ten" in Eph 6:1-3 not from Christ and says that the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- in that still valid "unit" of ten. It is not true that the 5th commandment is the first promise in the OT or the first promise in the Gospels, it is only true "in the unit of ten".

So it is no wonder that we find that such sources as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith and even the Catholic Catechism, R.C Sproul, Moody and others accept the moral law status of the TEN Commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

So does that mean Christians who BTW aren't being addressed here are obligated to keep the law?

from scratch · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
Gal 1:6-11 there is only "one Gospel"
Gal 3 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham".
Heb 4:1-2 "The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

Is 66:23 regarding the New Heavens and new earth long after the cross "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"

Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:!5 "if you Love Me - Keep My commandments"
Rev 14:12 the saints "Keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".

in Christ,

Bob

Please explain how from ... to means on.

My best guess is you think John 14:15 means the Ten Commandments. I ask how? The exact same phrase appears in John 15:10, but is clear beyond mistake it isn't the Ten Commandments. Besides we have John 1:17 contrasting what Moses and Jesus taught.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 1, 2014

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Notice that Eph 6 is where Paul points us to the TEN Commandments

Hentenza said:
Proof please.

It would have been nice if he would have provided the verses in that chapter.

.

from scratch · Feb 1, 2014

SAAN said:
No I have not switched, I still think we should use the dietary laws as a guideline on what to eat. While I may eat ham or shrimp every bluemoon, I do try my best to refrain from them, but I dont condemn anyone for eating pork or shellfish as it is their own free choice.

As for the Sabbath I think we really should still be keeping it, but there is no way to reverse what Rome changed 1800 yrs ago and since we live in America, I don't really see any difference between Saturday vs Sunday worship as God is being worshiped in the end regardless of the day. To say someone is worshiping a made up Sun God that doesnt exist or hold any power simply because they go to church on Sunday is 100% ignorant BS to the people that think that.

Im am just against arrogance when people try to beat their chest over Sabbath observance and act like Pharisees thinking they are better than the next man over 1 day of the week. I hope no one in this thread acts like that, but many I know that keep the Sabbath do.

The main beefs against Christianity it seems are the Food Laws in Lev 11, and the Sabbath Days in Lev 23, outside of those 2 topics everyone pretty much believes the same, outside of the whole sacred name debate.

I just dont think the all commands of God were abolished the way many Christians make it seem like. I believe many of his laws are still in place and are Summed up as Love God and Love one another instead of being canceled.

You seem to be closer to what Jeremiah said than most of your persuasion.

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

Paul includes lists in Romans 7, Romans 13, 1Cor 6 and elsewhere.

Paul states that the Christian faith "establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

Paul quotes from the "unit of ten" in Eph 6:1-3 not from Christ and says that the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- in that still valid "unit" of ten. It is not true that the 5th commandment is the first promise in the OT or the first promise in the Gospels, it is only true "in the unit of ten".

So it is no wonder that we find that such sources as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith and even the Catholic Catechism, R.C Sproul, Moody and others accept the moral law status of the TEN Commandments.

from scratch said:
So does that mean Christians who BTW aren't being addressed here are obligated to keep the law?

When you say that Christians are not being addressed - what do you mean?

In Romans 3? in Romans 7? in 1Cor 6? in 1Cor 7:19? In The "Baptist Confession of Faith"??

(I should have added Thomas Watson to that list above).

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
Notice that Eph 6 is where Paul points us to the TEN Commandments

================ As already noted

Now what is fascinating is that in Ephesians 6 - Paul does NOT quote Christ in Mark 7 when it comes to the 5th commandment - but rather Paul goes to MOSES when it comes to that same 5th commandment.

Eph 6:
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise: 3 that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.

Vs 3 in Eph 6 is right out of Ex 20:12 but it is NOT at all in Mark 7 - Christ's rendering of that same commandment. Paul was not quoting Mark 7 -- He was quoting MOSES.

Paul quotes from the "unit of ten" in Eph 6:1-3 not from Christ and says that the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- in that still valid "unit" of ten. It is not true that the 5th commandment is the first promise in the OT or the first promise in the Gospels, it is only true "in the unit of ten".

So it is no wonder that we find that such sources as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith and even the Catholic Catechism, R.C Sproul, Moody and others accept the moral law status of the TEN Commandments.

Is it any wonder then these other Christian sources are so much in agreement with "what matters is keeping the COMMANDMENTS of GOD" 1Cor 7:19??

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
(Thomas Watson)
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Christ himself equates "Word of God" and "Commandment of God" with Law of Moses" in Mark 7.

9 He was also saying to them, You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said,

Regarding Eph 6 and the 5th commandment quote from the TEN

Hentenza said:
Proof please.

Proof that Eph 6 is a direct quote of Ex 20:12 and that it is the FIRST commandment in the TEN - with a promise?

Or proof that Mark 7 does not provide a full quote of the 5th commandment?

Or proof that there is no quote at all of the 5th commandment in all of the Gospels that includes the full Ex 20 version - such as we have in Eph 6?

Proof that Ex 20:6 is not the first promise in the OT?

Proof that Ex 20:6 is not the first promise in the Gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John?

What would you like me to prove?

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

Gal 1:6-11 there is only "one Gospel"
Gal 3 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham".
Heb 4:1-2 "The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

Is 66:23 regarding the New Heavens and new earth long after the cross "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"

Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:!5 "if you Love Me - Keep My commandments"
Rev 14:12 the saints "Keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".

from scratch said:
Please explain how from ... to means on.

My best guess is you think John 14:15 means the Ten Commandments. I ask how? The exact same phrase appears in John 15:10, but is clear beyond mistake it isn't the Ten Commandments. Besides we have John 1:17 contrasting what Moses and Jesus taught.

In John 14:15 the hearers of Christ already have Ex 20:6 in "scripture" promising a blessing to those who "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" and then Christ said "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments".

This is a pre-cross statement of Christ so no ambiguity about the scriptures being wrong or not reading the scriptures for His Followers - pre-cross.

My claim is that along with the list of other sources I have given - the "Commandments" at the time Christ is speaking prior to the cross include everything in the Word of God.

Hence that big deal Christ makes in Mark 7 stating that no religious leader has the right to set aside one single Commandment of God.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

Question for those who think the Christian Church began tossing out the OT before the cross, or at the very latest by the time of Pentecost... notice what the post-Pentecost Apostolic leadership in Jerusalem is instructing Paul to do in Acts 21 please.

Acts 21

17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

A few points to notice here.
1. That entire discussion could not even happen if the mission was to AFFIRM the accusation against Paul - that He was tossing out the scriptures written by Moses.
2. This command comes from the head of the Christian Church - the Apostle James.
3. They are not only instructing Paul to keep a ceremonial law - but also to influence other Christian Jews to do the same - to pay their expenses thus proving that not only does HE keep that law but he encourages Christian Jews to "do likewise".
4. This is not a case of "Please agree to honor your parents and keep the 5th commandment" sort of thing that people are arguing against when it comes to OT versions of the 5th commandment. This is a pure ceremonial law issue.

This sort of confusion/debate/command could not even happen if the mission and message of the post-pentecost Apostolic church was "do not read Moses because nothing he wrote applies today".

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

If Jesus was tossing out the writing of Moses before the cross - He could never have condemned others for disregarding Moses in Mark 7.

Jesus appears to refute that idea in Matt 5 and in Mark 7:6-13 Jesus condemns the religious leaders of his day for daring to set aside even one of the commandments of God and replace it with the traditions of man.

Mark 7
And He said to them, Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.
9 He was also saying to them, You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother; and, He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death; 11 but you say, If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God), 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

Of course Christ declares His entire ministry to be in full support of the Law of God - as it turns out.

Matt 5
7 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Hentenza · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
Regarding Eph 6 and the 5th commandment quote from the TEN

But is not the ten. You need more than one commandment to make the assertion that Paul is talking about the 10.

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

Hentenza said:
But is not the ten. You need more than one commandment to make the assertion that Paul is talking about the 10.

If you can find some other place in NT where this commandment is quoted in full by Christ and then we have Paul quote Christ in Eph 6 and not Moses - then I am ready to read it.

If you can find either OT or NT context where the 5th commandment as fully quoted by Paul in Eph 6 is "the First commandment with a promise" -- outside of the place that God Himself calls the "Ten Commandments" then I am ready to read it.

If you don't have those text - then I think I have to go with the actual Bible texts we do have.

What is worse for the 'revised commandment list' model is that in Mark 7 - Christ clearly says that he is quoting Moses when He references the 5th commandment.

in Christ,

Bob

Emmy · Feb 2, 2014

Dear BobRyan. do we all realise, that God`sTen Commandments are the Two Commandments, which we are told to keep, after Our Lord Jesus has risen?
Love God with all our heart`s, with all our souls, and with all our minds: ALSO: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves? The Bible tells us:
"Repent," and also: " Be Born Again." When we do this: " Love God and love our neighbour," do we realise that we are doing all what God wants us to do?
God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Love is a great word, and to love is a verb/doing word. Everything we say or do, everything we advise or stand for, MUST BE from Love and Compassion. After we have truly repented, promised God that we would become a different person, we would do well to keep asking for Love and Joy, to share with all around us. We might stumble or even forget for a while, but then we sincerely ask God to forgive us, and carry on becoming more loving and caring: Loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour as we love ourselves: always kind and always with friendly words and deeds. God sees our efforts, and God will approve and Bless us greatly, and most wonderful: we will gradually change into the sons and daughters which God our Heavenly Father, wants us to become.
God will not force us, God wants our Love freely given and NO conditions tagged on, God wants us to " Love and Obey." A Christian`s great weapon is LOVE, with love we will overcome all adversity and wrong behaviour.
In Galatians 6: 7-10: we are told that God will not be mocked. We ask and be given, but for everything we will have fitting consequences: Blessings for good deeds, and what we deserve for all thoughtless or evil deeds. It is God`s way to teach us, not because God wants to punish us, but mostly for teaching us to become the sons and daughters for our Heavenly Father.
The world knows that Law under: " whatever ye sow ye shall also reap."
I say this with love, BobRyan. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

BobRyan · Feb 2, 2014

Greetings Emmy - thank you for your very thoughtful post about the law of Love and how it is the basis of all that we do as Christians. Certainly you make a very good point in that regard.

Emmy said:
Dear BobRyan. do we all realise, that God`sTen Commandments are the Two Commandments, which we are told to keep, after Our Lord Jesus has risen?
Love God with all our heart`s, with all our souls, and with all our minds:

Certainly the moral law does include that quote of Deut 6:5 just as Christ quotes it pre-cross in Matt 22 .

ALSO: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves?

Certainly the moral law does include that quote of Lev 19:18 just as Christ quotes it pre-cross in Matt 22 and just as Paul quotes it in Rom 13 and James in James 2.

The Bible tells us:
"Repent," and also: " Be Born Again."

That is true - just as Christ teaches long before the cross in John 3. In fact there are 1050 commands in the NT
1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

Love as we learn from Christ in Matt 22 is the bedrock foundation upon which all the law is established.

No wonder Paul says "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

No wonder then we have so many groups such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and so many others affirming the TEN Commandments as included in the moral code - the moral law of God binding on the saints from Eden to this very day.

Romans 2:13-16 "it is not the hearers of the Law that will be just before God but the doers of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"

Notice that Paul quotes directly from Moses in Eph 6:1-2 regarding the 5th commandment (not listed in the list you provided but I think we both agree that it counts).

The New Covenant is found in Jer 31:31-33 and is quoted again in Hebrews 8 - where we are told that in that Jer 31 context God will "write My Laws on their heart and on their mind".

in Christ,

Bob

Harry3142 · Feb 2, 2014

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (I John 3:21-24,NIV)

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. (Galatians 6:7-10,NIV)

Christianity is not Judaism, even though we use the definitions which are originally found in Judaism for words such as 'sexual immorality'. Proper behavior in Judaism is governed by laws and commandments which were designed for a specific society that was to remain seperate from all other societies. Proper behavior in Christianity is governed by our willingness, and even our longing, to better the condition of all around us, both Christians and nonbelievers. We are governed not by laws, but rather by motivations. The laws that we pay attention to, such as those forbidding murder, theft, adultery, and perjury, are not exclusive to either Judaism or Christianity; societies all over the world teach their citizenry to obey these same laws.

Our code of morality is not weaker than that found in Judaism; it's stronger. And that is due to its being necessary for us to have the correct motivations as the impetus for our actions, rather than our simply 'going through the motions'. If the motivations for our actions don't conform to what God wants those motivations to be, namely, 'the fruit of the Spirit', then our actions have no assurance of conforming to what he wants of us. Laws can be manipulated, or even twisted so as to appear to support actions that are clearly evil; motivations can't. So it is those motivations which are 'the laws written on the heart'.

BobRyan · Feb 2, 2014

I am not sure if I posted this or not - but just in case.

[FONT=&quot]KEEP the Commandments[/FONT]

10 Commandments are
Commandments of God Neh 10:29
Law of God Neh 10:29
Word of God Mark 7:13
Commandment of God Mark 7:6-13
NT Scripture James 2:8
NT Law James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

Christ said

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

BobRyan · Feb 2, 2014

Note that Romans 13, Romans 7, Eph 6:1-2, James 2 and there are of course other examples in the NT quote from the TEN Commandments.

Is it any wonder that such a wide group of Christian groups affirm the continued binding authority of the TEN Commandments for the saints - binding on the people of God from Eden to this very day.

(And that group includes)

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson
Christ himself equates "Word of God" and "Commandment of God" with Law of Moses" in Mark 7

in Christ,

Bob

NorrinRadd · Feb 3, 2014

BobRyan said:
The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley

All of them argue for the continued application of ALL TEN commandments to the saints today - starting in Eden and continued to this very day.

So while some Christian groups oppose them - there are quite a number in support of the TEN commandments - because under the New Covenant God writes the Law of God on the heart and mind according to Jer 31:31-33 and also Hebrews 8.

No wonder then Paul can say when contrasting the ceremonial law with the moral law of God "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

And as both John and Paul state keeping the Law of God is not something the lost will do - or CAN do. It is only for saved saints.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul makes the point that the lost would be at war with the Law of God - but the saints under the New Covenant condition of the Law written on the heart - would not.

What are your thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

My thoughts are that the groups and preachers you cited were and are ignorant.

Each Covenant has had its own set of stipulations, and The Ten did not take effect until the Sinai Covenant. We can be pretty sure the "Do not murder" edict was not in place from the beginning, or else Cain would have been executed instead of exiled. "Blood for blood" was first instituted with Noah.

All of the law of the Obsolete Covenant has been removed except that which has been reaffirmed -- "Love your neighbor as yourself."

One side says laws define love. I say love defines the law, and Jesus defines "love" -- "Treat others as you wish others to treat you" and "lay down your soul/life for your friends."

Yarddog · Feb 3, 2014

BobRyan said:
God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

Though we are not under the Law if we follow Jesus' command to love we do not break any of the Ten.

Cribstyl · Feb 3, 2014

Many notable men have erred concerning sabbath truths and the origin. Jesus made it clear that circumcision was passed down from the fathers (not sabbath). This is why Moses commanded circumcision on the sabbath.

Jhn 7:22
Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Jhn 7:23
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

from scratch · Feb 3, 2014

Can anyone present a passage indicating the Christian is required to keep any of the law?

God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

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