God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

MJohn7 · Feb 1, 2014

And hope.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Romans 15: For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. 5

SAAN · Feb 1, 2014

from scratch said:
Not in anything you cite or quote.Have you switched or something?

No I have not switched, I still think we should use the dietary laws as a guideline on what to eat. While I may eat ham or shrimp every bluemoon, I do try my best to refrain from them, but I dont condemn anyone for eating pork or shellfish as it is their own free choice.

As for the Sabbath I think we really should still be keeping it, but there is no way to reverse what Rome changed 1800 yrs ago and since we live in America, I don't really see any difference between Saturday vs Sunday worship as God is being worshiped in the end regardless of the day. To say someone is worshiping a made up Sun God that doesnt exist or hold any power simply because they go to church on Sunday is 100% ignorant BS to the people that think that.

Im am just against arrogance when people try to beat their chest over Sabbath observance and act like Pharisees thinking they are better than the next man over 1 day of the week. I hope no one in this thread acts like that, but many I know that keep the Sabbath do.

The main beefs against Christianity it seems are the Food Laws in Lev 11, and the Sabbath Days in Lev 23, outside of those 2 topics everyone pretty much believes the same, outside of the whole sacred name debate.

I just dont think the all commands of God were abolished the way many Christians make it seem like. I believe many of his laws are still in place and are Summed up as Love God and Love one another instead of being canceled.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 1, 2014

SAAN said:
No I have not switched, I still think we should use the dietary laws as a guideline on what to eat.
While I may eat ham or shrimp every bluemoon, I do try my best to refrain from them, but I dont condemn anyone for eating pork or shellfish as it is their own free choice.

The main beefs against Christianity it seems are the Food Laws in Lev 11, and the Sabbath Days in Lev 23, outside of those 2 topics everyone pretty much believes the same, outside of the whole sacred name debate.

I just dont think the all commands of God were abolished the way many Christians make it seem like. I believe many of his laws are still in place and are Summed up as Love God and Love one another instead of being canceled.

So you admit you break the Mosaic food laws?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7538322/
Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean?

Blue moon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A blue moon is an extra full moon that appears in a subdivision of a year, either the third of four full moons in a season or, recently, a second full moon in a month of the common calendar. Metaphorically, a "blue moon" is a rare event, as in the expression "once in a blue moon".
The phrase has nothing to do with the actual color of the moon, although a literal "blue moon" (the moon appearing with a tinge of blue) may occur in certain atmospheric conditions; e.g., when there are volcanic eruptions or when exceptionally large fires leave particles in the atmosphere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE8M6rhxIhk

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LittleLambofJesus · Feb 1, 2014

MJohn7 said:
And hope.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Romans 15: For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

Both Jews and Christians share in that hope.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE JEWISH RULERS

John 5:45
"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you hope.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.

As the Scriptures show, the Jewish leaders of Yeshua's day generally failed to recognize the very one Moses wrote about (Deu. 18:15, 18).

1Pe 3:15
and the Lord God sanctify in your hearts.
And be ready always for defence to every one who is asking of you an account concerning the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear

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MJohn7 · Feb 1, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
Both Jews and Christians share in that hope.

Pe 3:15
and the Lord God sanctify in your hearts.
And be ready always for defence to every one who is asking of you an account concerning the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear
.

So i can say "because the bible tells me so"

SAAN · Feb 1, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
So you admit you break the Mosaic food laws?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7538322/
Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean?

Blue moon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A blue moon is an extra full moon that appears in a subdivision of a year, either the third of four full moons in a season or, recently, a second full moon in a month of the common calendar. Metaphorically, a "blue moon" is a rare event, as in the expression "once in a blue moon".
The phrase has nothing to do with the actual color of the moon, although a literal "blue moon" (the moon appearing with a tinge of blue) may occur in certain atmospheric conditions; e.g., when there are volcanic eruptions or when exceptionally large fires leave particles in the atmosphere.

Meco: Impressions of An American Werewolf in London (Soundtrack); Blue Moon - 1 of 8 - YouTube

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Im working on the whole food part. Kinda hard to give up something you have had your whole like just like that.

Romans chapter 14 is about vegetarianism and fasting, not eat whatever you want now.

Hentenza · Feb 1, 2014

maco said:
Do you think it's right to murder, lie, steal, worship other gods, use the Lord's name in vain and so on?

None of those I do because I love Christ not because I have a checklist.

2 Cor. 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Hentenza · Feb 1, 2014

maco said:
Does Paul contradict Jesus? We must understand Paul in light of Jesus.

Paul's words are God breathed and inspired by the Holy Spirit. They carry the same weight as the words of Jesus. Meditate on that and your mind will not be as conflicted.

MJohn7 · Feb 1, 2014

SAAN said:
Im working on the whole food part. Kinda hard to give up something you have had your whole like just like that.

Romans chapter 14 is about vegetarianism and fasting, not eat whatever you want now.

If thats true then only those weak in faith use fasting.

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
Now what is fascinating is that in Ephesians 6 - Paul does NOT quote Christ in Mark 7 when it comes to the 5th commandment - but rather Paul goes to MOSES when it comes to that same 5th commandment.

Eph 6:
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

Vs 3 in Eph 6 is right out of Ex 20:12 but it is NOT at all in Mark 7 - Christ's rendering of that same commandment. Paul was not quoting Mark 7 -- He was quoting MOSES.

Is it any wonder then these other Christian sources are so much in agreement with "what matters is keeping the COMMANDMENTS of GOD" 1Cor 7:19??

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Christ himself equates "Word of God" and "Commandment of God" with Law of Moses" in Mark 7.

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said,

ViaCrucis said:
I'll take seriously the Sabbatarians as soon as they decide to stop playing fast and loose with the Torah by arbitrarily cherry picking which parts of the Torah are to be observed and which parts are not.

Out of curiosity - do you consider all the sources list above to be "sabbatarians"??

Did you read the quote of Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith on this thread regarding the TEN commandments and in Moody's case - the 4th commandment? Is that how you define "Sabbatarian"??

Notice how both the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith divide between the ceremonial law and the moral law of God (Ten Commandments)

Section 19
. The Law of God

God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

in Christ,

Bob

MJohn7 · Feb 1, 2014

SAAN said:
Romans chapter 14 is about vegetarianism and fasting, not eat whatever you want now.

MJohn7 said:
If thats true then only those weak in faith use fasting.

Correct?

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

Hentenza said:
None of those I do because I love Christ not because I have a checklist.

2 Cor. 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Paul includes lists in Romans 7, Romans 13, 1Cor 6 and elsewhere.

Paul states that the Christian faith "establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

Paul quotes from the "unit of ten" in Eph 6:1-3 not from Christ and says that the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- in that still valid "unit" of ten. It is not true that the 5th commandment is the first promise in the OT or the first promise in the Gospels, it is only true "in the unit of ten".

So it is no wonder that we find that such sources as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith and even the Catholic Catechism, R.C Sproul, Moody and others accept the moral law status of the TEN Commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

Hentenza · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
Paul includes lists in Romans 7, Romans 13, 1Cor 6 and elsewhere.

Context is everything.

Paul states that the Christian faith "establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

Not really. Paul states the role of the law in Gal. 5.

Paul quotes from the "unit of ten" in Eph 6:1-3

Really? Where?

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

Michael Collum said:
you must also take all of Jesus' teachings in context

The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. (Luke 16:16)

the age of the law was over after john the baptist and the new covenant was ratified by the blood of Jesus . there's a subtle shift of purpose there between the two . which accounts for a lot of confusion .

Gal 1:6-11 there is only "one Gospel"
Gal 3 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham".
Heb 4:1-2 "The gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

Is 66:23 regarding the New Heavens and new earth long after the cross "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"

Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:!5 "if you Love Me - Keep My commandments"
Rev 14:12 the saints "Keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".

in Christ,

Bob

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 1, 2014

Originally Posted by SAAN

Romans chapter 14 is about vegetarianism and fasting, not eat whatever you want now.

MJohn7 said:
If thats true then only those weak in faith use fasting.

I generally fast from the time I go to bed at night until I get up in the morning.........

http://www.christianforums.com/f371/
Fasting The forum to discuss different forms of fasting and support.

Mat 6:16
'And when ye may fast, be ye not as the hypocrites, of sour countenances,
for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear to men fasting; verily I say to you, that they have their reward.

Mat 9:14
Then come to him do the disciples of John, saying, 'Wherefore do we and the Pharisees fast much, and thy disciples fast not?'
15 And Jesus said to them, 'Can the sons of the bride-chamber mourn, so long as the bridegroom is with them?
but days shall come when the bridegroom may be taken from them, and then they shall fast.

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

Paul provides many lists in Rom 7, Rom 13, 1Cor 6 etc.

And Paul states fully in Rom 3;31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Hentenza said:
Context is everything.

Not really. Paul states the role of the law in Gal. 5.

Notice that Eph 6 is where Paul points us to the TEN Commandments

Hentenza said:
Really? Where?

================ As already noted

Now what is fascinating is that in Ephesians 6 - Paul does NOT quote Christ in Mark 7 when it comes to the 5th commandment - but rather Paul goes to MOSES when it comes to that same 5th commandment.

Eph 6:
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise: 3 that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.

Vs 3 in Eph 6 is right out of Ex 20:12 but it is NOT at all in Mark 7 - Christ's rendering of that same commandment. Paul was not quoting Mark 7 -- He was quoting MOSES.

Paul quotes from the "unit of ten" in Eph 6:1-3 not from Christ and says that the 5th commandment is the "First commandment with a promise" -- in that still valid "unit" of ten. It is not true that the 5th commandment is the first promise in the OT or the first promise in the Gospels, it is only true "in the unit of ten".

So it is no wonder that we find that such sources as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith and even the Catholic Catechism, R.C Sproul, Moody and others accept the moral law status of the TEN Commandments.

Is it any wonder then these other Christian sources are so much in agreement with "what matters is keeping the COMMANDMENTS of GOD" 1Cor 7:19??

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Christ himself equates "Word of God" and "Commandment of God" with Law of Moses" in Mark 7.

9 He was also saying to them, You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said,
===================================

Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul makes the point that the lost would be at war with the Law of God - but the saints under the New Covenant condition of the Law written on the heart - would not.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Feb 1, 2014

SAAN said:
Im working on the whole food part. Kinda hard to give up something you have had your whole like just like that.

Romans chapter 14 is about vegetarianism and fasting, not eat whatever you want now.

The meat vs vegetarian issue in Romans 14 is the same as in 1Cor 8 and 10 - where Paul says "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble".

There was no command in the OT instructing Jews to be vegetarian. ( I am all in favor of vegetarian diet by the way).

That was not a Jew vs Gentile diet issue regarding OT commands to be a vegetarian. No such commands. As I think both you and I would agree.

Rather the issue is the same Acts 15 "Foods offered to idols" and Paul says in both 1Cor 8, 10 and Rom 14 that the one who fears the idols because they are newly converted Christians from paganism, are eating vegetables only (weak in faith) trying to avoid meat offered to idols now that they are Christian.

So Romans 14 is not about "eating rats, cats, bats vs being vegetarian" rather it is about eating what the Bible says is meat that is "for food" vs being vegetarian and the vegetarian issue is over the desire to avoid meat offered to idols. A very real issue in the NT.

in Christ,

Bob

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
The meat vs vegetarian issue in Romans 14 is the same as in 1Cor 8 and 10 - where Paul says "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble".

There was no command in the OT instructing Jews to be vegetarian. ( I am all in favor of vegetarian diet by the way).

That was not a Jew vs Gentile diet issue regarding OT commands to be a vegetarian. No such commands. As I think both you and I would agree.

Rather the issue is the same Acts 15 "Foods offered to idols" and Paul says in both 1Cor 8, 10 and Rom 14 that the one who fears the idols because they are newly converted Christians from paganism, are eating vegetables only (weak in faith) trying to avoid meat offered to idols now that they are Christian.

So Romans 14 is not about "eating rats, cats, bats vs being vegetarian" rather it is about eating what the Bible says is meat that is "for food" vs being vegetarian and the vegetarian issue is over the desire to avoid meat offered to idols.
A very real issue in the NT.

in Christ,

Bob

According to J.O., that appears to be the case........

Btw, do you agree with J.O. on this?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7457416-101/#post54477255
Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT.

Joel Osteen, the Evangelical Pastor of the largest Mega Church in North America, has exploded the popular Evangelical view that the dietary laws were done away with at the cross. He basically, takes the position that SDAs have had for over 100 years.
You have to admire his courage for preaching this sermon in Houston, Texas, one of the most carnivorous cities in the North America.

Video link to unclean foods sermon:

YouTube - Joel Osteen on God's Food Laws

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Hentenza · Feb 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
Notice that Eph 6 is where Paul points us to the TEN Commandments

Proof please.

maco · Feb 1, 2014

Hentenza said:
None of those I do because I love Christ not because I have a checklist.

2 Cor. 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

You don't have a check list because wrote His Law on your heart.

God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

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