Gods sovereignty & our free will

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
The Bible says: “we all die because Adam and Eve sinned”, but that is not saying: “we were all born dead in our sins”. Is physical death “bad” in and of itself, since that is the way home for me?

I agree we are dependent on God to quicken us, but even in a dead state we can selfishly humbly accept God’s pure charity.

How are you getting from the prodigal son story it being a “rare example”? Do you find that with any other parable? He fits many I have known and myself. The ability to change direction within their mind (repent) is given to everyone, but most will not humble themselves to the point of accepting sacrificial charity.

Is Jesus misleading us here, suggesting this is man’s relationship to God?

Are you suggesting God is selfish (unloving) with His giving of the ability to repent and how do you get that from scripture?

The problem with just saying: “to glorify God” is the fact a tree glorifies God by being a tree, so how is our glorifying different/better?

Do you believe: man can do stuff which does not bring glory to God?

What do we “do” differently which gives God glory after we accept His charity?

I can agree with the fact the story and really all three parables are given to get to the one question: “Will you join the party”? Like other parables this parable is to set the Pharisees to give their ending to the story (the older son represents them).
I think it all comes down to the two schools of thought, I side with Calvinism and you obviously side with Arminianism. This difference shouldn't divide the Church, my pastor teaches that we can have fellowship with Arminians.

I was an Arminian for many years, but I believe God revealed the truth to me that He is sovereign over all things including who will be saved and who will be left in their sin.

The fact that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin seemed to be unfair to me in my early days, but as I learned more about the Holy Scriptures it became clear that God is truly sovereign over everything that happens in the universe and nothing happens outside His will.

The Bible does say that we are born dead in our sin and as spiritually dead carnal people we cannot choose to believe in spiritual things, unless God quickens us to life and opens our eyes to see our true state and then fall on our face and repent.

If we repent on our own merit while others die in their ignorance of the truth, then we have something to boast about. We can say I was smarter than my brother who went to the grave as an unrepentant sinner.
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
His argument starts off with some false premises. Regarding the woman caught in adultery, when Jesus told her to go and sin no more, maybe He meant don't commit adultery again.

Regarding the title of the thread, Christians start off with the wrong idea. Sovereign means that one is the ultimate authority. It doesn't mean to control everything as many try to imply. So, there is no tension. Man can have free ill and still be answerable to God who is the ultimate authority, Sovereign.
As we know, there are always 10 different views on the true meaning of every scripture. Christians have never agreed with each other and they went to war over their differing views and Christians remain divided to this day.

The main argument is over "who God is" some like me say God is sovereign over all things, while others like you say God is limited and His power is limited while I believe He is all powerful and all mighty because my Bible says exactly that. You employ your own fallen human intellect to interpret the Bible, while I take God at His inerrant, infallible Word.

It simply comes down to, do we take God at His Word as we have it recorded in the Holy Scriptures or do we add our own fallen sinful interpretation to Holy Scripture.

The Bible says that god is sovereign over "ALL THINGS" you want me to believe that His power is limited by your own expectations, sorry but I choose to believe Holy Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

sparow

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2014
2,554
428
85
✟489,464.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
How does Gods sovereignty and our free will interact?

I came across a short answer to this question by David Murray, he answers the question quite well.

I'm sure most folks have wrestled with this at some stage. The Bible does answer it as well but not in a small package, it takes a lot of study to learn the truth about Gods sovereignty and our will.

I'm not trying to open Pandora's box here, by asking your view on "free choice" or "predestination" with regards to salvation. That is an entirely different subject. I'm just interested in how our own free will coexists with Gods sovereignty.

I'm sure every Christian would agree that we continue to sin until the day we die, not deliberately but we stumble because of our old nature but we are not given over to sin without restraint. In other words we are in a battle against our fallen nature, which seeks to fulfill the "lusts" or desires of the flesh.

I have had Christians claim that they no longer sin, they show me Bible verses which say things like "go and sin no more". I don't think Christ meant that He expected the woman caught in adultery to never commit another sin. I think He was saying don't be a slave of sin by giving yourself over to serving your sin nature.

How Does God's Sovereignty Work with Our Free Will?

Mans natural nature is against God; our salvation is dependant on us changing our nature. Free-will really isn't free. What does free-will mean; will without friction or will without cost; I believe "free-will" is a oxymoron.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
768
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,557.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As we know, there are always 10 different views on the true meaning of every scripture. Christians have never agreed with each other and they went to war over their differing views and Christians remain divided to this day.

The main argument is over "who God is" some like me say God is sovereign over all things, while others like you say God is limited and His power is limited while I believe He is all powerful and all mighty because my Bible says exactly that. You employ your own fallen human intellect to interpret the Bible, while I take God at His inerrant, infallible Word.

It simply comes down to, do we take God at His Word as we have it recorded in the Holy Scriptures or do we add our own fallen sinful interpretation to Holy Scripture.

The Bible says that god is sovereign over "ALL THINGS" you want me to believe that His power is limited by your own expectations, sorry but I choose to believe Holy Scripture.

That's pretty funny because I seriously doubt that the Bible speaks to you. So, you too, are using your "fallen human intellect" to interpret it. So why not take the chip off your should and be real? Creating a straw man argument does nothing to further your argument. I never said that God's power was limited. I simply said Christians start off with the wrong idea. Sovereign is an English word, it's not in the Bible. It's really easy to grab a dictionary and look it up. It means the ultimate authority. It doesn't mean one controls everything. America is a sovereign nation, that doesn't mean it control everything. It doesn't even control everything within it's borders. So sovereign doesn't mean to control everything.

No need to start your argument with a logical fallacy.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟826,126.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think it all comes down to the two schools of thought, I side with Calvinism and you obviously side with Arminianism. This difference shouldn't divide the Church, my pastor teaches that we can have fellowship with Arminians.

I was an Arminian for many years, but I believe God revealed the truth to me that He is sovereign over all things including who will be saved and who will be left in their sin.

The fact that God chooses to save some and leave others in their sin seemed to be unfair to me in my early days, but as I learned more about the Holy Scriptures it became clear that God is truly sovereign over everything that happens in the universe and nothing happens outside His will.

The Bible does say that we are born dead in our sin and as spiritually dead carnal people we cannot choose to believe in spiritual things, unless God quickens us to life and opens our eyes to see our true state and then fall on our face and repent.

If we repent on our own merit while others die in their ignorance of the truth, then we have something to boast about. We can say I was smarter than my brother who went to the grave as an unrepentant sinner.

I see it as unfair/unjust.

With your understanding would it be just as easy and safe for God to save everyone, yet God is like a rescuer who goes into a burning building and saving just a few when he could just as easily and safely save them all, so what would you thing of such a rescuer?

Yes, as unbelieving sinners we are "dead", but by Christ's definition of "dead" (use in the prodigal son story) we can still do stuff, but that does not mean we can do something noble, worthy of something, something we can boast about, something righteous and of "value" to others.
We wimp out, give up and surrender to our enemy (there are no monuments built to those who surrendered, but there are monuments built for soldiers who died on both sides of the battle). We do not decide to change sides on our own, but we can surrender to our enemy God still feeling He is our enemy and can torture and kill us for our previous war crimes. We are trusting in the possibility of an unrealistic undeserved charity we hope our enemy has. This is like the prodigal son turning to his father not for some noble reason, but so he might have just an undeserved livable life.
It would be more noble an honorable if the sinner was macho, took the punishment he fully deserves, been willing to pay the piper, and did not disturb his Father with undeserving requests.
Smartness has nothing to do with it, the lowliest mature adult on earth can humbly accept pure charity, in fact that makes it harder for the learned "class", since they are asked to do something anyone can do, so it is a humbling activity.
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Mans natural nature is against God; our salvation is dependant on us changing our nature. Free-will really isn't free. What does free-will mean; will without friction or will without cost; I believe "free-will" is a oxymoron.
Mans natural nature is against God; our salvation is dependant on us changing our nature. Free-will really isn't free. What does free-will mean; will without friction or will without cost; I believe "free-will" is a oxymoron.
David Murray agrees with you that (our free will) is an oxymoron when explained that we are born with the "free will" to choose to sin. So yes we have a free will but it is limited to choose to sin only.

My understanding on the Bible's doctrine of total depravity is that we don't have the will to change our nature because our nature automatically gravitates to serve our desires and lusts of the flesh. So it is unnatural for us to repent and go against our desire to sin and change our nature.

I believe the Bible teaches that God causes us to repent and He is the one who changes our nature over a period of time after we are converted. I can't find the idea that it is us who decide to change our nature, in the Bible. Could you please point me to the scriptures to support your claim that "our salvation is dependent on us changing our nature".

I used to believe that we are the ones who make the decision to change our nature, until I was challenged to find that doctrine in the Bible. I wasn't able to find it and I had to accept the fact that God Himself is the author and finisher of my salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
I see it as unfair/unjust.

With your understanding would it be just as easy and safe for God to save everyone, yet God is like a rescuer who goes into a burning building and saving just a few when he could just as easily and safely save them all, so what would you thing of such a rescuer?

Yes, as unbelieving sinners we are "dead", but by Christ's definition of "dead" (use in the prodigal son story) we can still do stuff, but that does not mean we can do something noble, worthy of something, something we can boast about, something righteous and of "value" to others.
We wimp out, give up and surrender to our enemy (there are no monuments built to those who surrendered, but there are monuments built for soldiers who died on both sides of the battle). We do not decide to change sides on our own, but we can surrender to our enemy God still feeling He is our enemy and can torture and kill us for our previous war crimes. We are trusting in the possibility of an unrealistic undeserved charity we hope our enemy has. This is like the prodigal son turning to his father not for some noble reason, but so he might have just an undeserved livable life.
It would be more noble an honorable if the sinner was macho, took the punishment he fully deserves, been willing to pay the piper, and did not disturb his Father with undeserving requests.
Smartness has nothing to do with it, the lowliest mature adult on earth can humbly accept pure charity, in fact that makes it harder for the learned "class", since they are asked to do something anyone can do, so it is a humbling activity.
Please take a few moments to consider the doctrine of "predestination and re-probation"
I appreciate it's like extracting teeth for most people but it is in the bible so it deserves our attention. I agree it does go against our "human rights" and it is offensive to our nature as it seems unjust and unfair.

I remember when I confronted a pastor who believed in predestination, with the accusation that God is unfair he responded by saying you're right God is unfair. If He was fair He would simply send everyone to hell, since we all deserve to go there. But thanks be to God that He choose to save billions by His Sovereign Grace and mercy.

So we should be asking why God choose to save anyone, not why He choose to save Billions and leave others in their sin. A just and fair God should give everyone what they deserve, not come and suffer for the wicked sins of His enemies.

Predestination
Romans 8:29 — “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Ephesians 1:5 — “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

Foreknowledge
Romans 8:29 — “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Romans 11:2 — “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel….”

Acts 2:23 — “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

I Peter 1:2 — “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Election and Reprobation
Canons 1, 6 — “That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not receive it proceeds from God’s eternal decree, ‘For known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world’ (Acts 15:18). ‘Who worketh all things after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11). According to which decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe, while He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy. And herein is especially displayed the profound, the merciful, and at the same time the righteous discrimination between men equally involved in ruin; or that decree of election and reprobation, revealed in the Word of God, which, though men of perverse, impure, and unstable minds wrest to their own destruction, yet to holy and pious souls affords unspeakable consolation.”

Romans 9:10-13 — “And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Election
Ephesians 1:3, 4 — “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

I Peter 1:2 — “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Reprobation
Canons I, 15 — “What peculiarly tends to illustrate and recommend to us the eternal and unmerited grace of election is the express testimony of sacred Scripture that not all, but some only, are elected, while others are passed by in the eternal election of
God; whom God, out of His sovereign, most just, irreprehensible, and unchangeable good pleasure, hath decreed to leave in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not to bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but leaving them in His just judgment to follow their own ways, at last for the declaration of His justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief, but also for all their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation which by no means makes God the author of sin (the very thought of which is blasphemy), but declares Him to be an awful, irreprehensible, and righteous judge and avenger thereof.”

Matthew 11:25, 26 — “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.”

John 10:26 — “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.”

John 12:37-40 — “But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

Romans 9:13-18 — “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

Romans 11:7-10 — “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back always.”

I Peter 2:8 — “And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.”

God’s Sovereignty
Acts 15:18 — “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

Isaiah 46:10 — “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”

Job 23:13, 14 — “But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.”

Psalm 115:3 — “But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.”

Daniel 4:35 — “And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”

Romans 9:15, 18 — “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion…. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

Malachi 3:6 — “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

Jeremiah 32:17 — “Ah, Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:”

God’s Sovereignty over Sin
II Samuel 16:11 — “And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him.”

II Samuel 24:1 — “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.”

Job 1:12 — “And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.”

Job 1:21 — “And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”

Proverbs 21:1 — “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.”

Amos 3:6 — “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”

Isaiah 45:7 — “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Acts 2:23 — “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

Acts 4:27, 28 — “For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

Romans 9:19-22 — “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
That's pretty funny because I seriously doubt that the Bible speaks to you. So, you too, are using your "fallen human intellect" to interpret it. So why not take the chip off your should and be real? Creating a straw man argument does nothing to further your argument. I never said that God's power was limited. I simply said Christians start off with the wrong idea. Sovereign is an English word, it's not in the Bible. It's really easy to grab a dictionary and look it up. It means the ultimate authority. It doesn't mean one controls everything. America is a sovereign nation, that doesn't mean it control everything. It doesn't even control everything within it's borders. So sovereign doesn't mean to control everything.

No need to start your argument with a logical fallacy.
You're welcome to limit God to what ever limits you want to place on Him, but that will never change the fact that He is almighty and unlimited.

Fallen sinful man has been trying to make excuses for his sin, ever since he sinned in the garden of Eden. Fallen man hates God because He is Holy and pure and man is filthy and sinful, so it's not surprising to find "Christians" denying Gods Holiness and Sovereignty.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,285
20,284
US
✟1,476,722.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How does Gods sovereignty and our free will interact?

I came across a short answer to this question by David Murray, he answers the question quite well.

I'm sure most folks have wrestled with this at some stage. The Bible does answer it as well but not in a small package, it takes a lot of study to learn the truth about Gods sovereignty and our will.

I'm not trying to open Pandora's box here, by asking your view on "free choice" or "predestination" with regards to salvation. That is an entirely different subject. I'm just interested in how our own free will coexists with Gods sovereignty.

I'm sure every Christian would agree that we continue to sin until the day we die, not deliberately but we stumble because of our old nature but we are not given over to sin without restraint. In other words we are in a battle against our fallen nature, which seeks to fulfill the "lusts" or desires of the flesh.

I have had Christians claim that they no longer sin, they show me Bible verses which say things like "go and sin no more". I don't think Christ meant that He expected the woman caught in adultery to never commit another sin. I think He was saying don't be a slave of sin by giving yourself over to serving your sin nature.

How Does God's Sovereignty Work with Our Free Will?

Well, it took all the way until Wednesday before this topic came up this week. Or did I miss an earlier iteration?

My question is: Why does it matter?

I get up with the intention of doing what the Lord requires of me. So why does this question matter? What difference would have made in my intention to do what the Lord requires of me?
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Well, it took all the way until Wednesday before this topic came up this week. Or did I miss an earlier iteration?

My question is: Why does it matter?

I get up with the intention of doing what the Lord requires of me. So why does this question matter? What difference would have made in my intention to do what the Lord requires of me?
You may get up with the intention of doing what the Lord requires of you, but you know very well that you don't end up doing it as well as you intended to.

Paul said we struggle against the flesh, so there are two wills Waring in us. I too get up with the intention of doing what I believe God requires of me but I have never fulfilled my duties without a measure of failure.

I have never meet anyone who can get through a day or even an hour without, sinning. The Bible teaches that true believers will only achieve a perfect sinless state when we receive our glorified bodies in the eternal afterlife. Until that time we will struggle with our corrupt bodies of sin and death.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,932
768
62
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟308,557.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're welcome to limit God to what ever limits you want to place on Him, but that will never change the fact that He is almighty and unlimited.

Fallen sinful man has been trying to make excuses for his sin, ever since he sinned in the garden of Eden. Fallen man hates God because He is Holy and pure and man is filthy and sinful, so it's not surprising to find "Christians" denying Gods Holiness and Sovereignty.

Again, your argument is a strawman, a logical fallacy. I can see why you believe in Calvinism. Calvinism removes all the responsibility from man. It's all God. It's easy. I don't have to do anything.
 
Upvote 0

sparow

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2014
2,554
428
85
✟489,464.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
David Murray agrees with you that (our free will) is an oxymoron when explained that we are born with the "free will" to choose to sin. So yes we have a free will but it is limited to choose to sin only.

My understanding on the Bible's doctrine of total depravity is that we don't have the will to change our nature because our nature automatically gravitates to serve our desires and lusts of the flesh. So it is unnatural for us to repent and go against our desire to sin and change our nature.

I believe the Bible teaches that God causes us to repent and He is the one who changes our nature over a period of time after we are converted. I can't find the idea that it is us who decide to change our nature, in the Bible. Could you please point me to the scriptures to support your claim that "our salvation is dependent on us changing our nature".

I used to believe that we are the ones who make the decision to change our nature, until I was challenged to find that doctrine in the Bible. I wasn't able to find it and I had to accept the fact that God Himself is the author and finisher of my salvation.

Your belief doesn't explain the difference between those who are saved and those who are lost; it is a covenant that requires the action of two parties.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,607.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Your belief doesn't explain the difference between those who are saved and those who are lost; it is a covenant that requires the action of two parties.

Your answer resides in knowing who the two parties are who made the covenant. Ultimately the covenant of redemption was made among the members of the Godhead. Those who become redeemed are heirs predestine by the sovereign decree of that covenant. The heir is not the one who writes the will, nor are they the ones who enter into the contract. They are the recipients of what the decedent has decided to do.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,607.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Please take a few moments to consider the doctrine of "predestination and re-probation"
I appreciate it's like extracting teeth for most people but it is in the bible so it deserves our attention. I agree it does go against our "human rights" and it is offensive to our nature as it seems unjust and unfair.

I remember when I confronted a pastor who believed in predestination, with the accusation that God is unfair he responded by saying you're right God is unfair. If He was fair He would simply send everyone to hell, since we all deserve to go there. But thanks be to God that He choose to save billions by His Sovereign Grace and mercy.

So we should be asking why God choose to save anyone, not why He choose to save Billions and leave others in their sin. A just and fair God should give everyone what they deserve, not come and suffer for the wicked sins of His enemies.

Predestination
Romans 8:29 — “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Ephesians 1:5 — “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

Foreknowledge
Romans 8:29 — “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Romans 11:2 — “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel….”

Acts 2:23 — “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

I Peter 1:2 — “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Election and Reprobation
Canons 1, 6 — “That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not receive it proceeds from God’s eternal decree, ‘For known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world’ (Acts 15:18). ‘Who worketh all things after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11). According to which decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe, while He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy. And herein is especially displayed the profound, the merciful, and at the same time the righteous discrimination between men equally involved in ruin; or that decree of election and reprobation, revealed in the Word of God, which, though men of perverse, impure, and unstable minds wrest to their own destruction, yet to holy and pious souls affords unspeakable consolation.”

Romans 9:10-13 — “And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Election
Ephesians 1:3, 4 — “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

I Peter 1:2 — “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Reprobation
Canons I, 15 — “What peculiarly tends to illustrate and recommend to us the eternal and unmerited grace of election is the express testimony of sacred Scripture that not all, but some only, are elected, while others are passed by in the eternal election of
God; whom God, out of His sovereign, most just, irreprehensible, and unchangeable good pleasure, hath decreed to leave in the common misery into which they have willfully plunged themselves, and not to bestow upon them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but leaving them in His just judgment to follow their own ways, at last for the declaration of His justice, to condemn and punish them forever, not only on account of their unbelief, but also for all their other sins. And this is the decree of reprobation which by no means makes God the author of sin (the very thought of which is blasphemy), but declares Him to be an awful, irreprehensible, and righteous judge and avenger thereof.”

Matthew 11:25, 26 — “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.”

John 10:26 — “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.”

John 12:37-40 — “But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

Romans 9:13-18 — “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

Romans 11:7-10 — “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them: let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back always.”

I Peter 2:8 — “And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.”

God’s Sovereignty
Acts 15:18 — “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

Isaiah 46:10 — “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”

Job 23:13, 14 — “But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.”

Psalm 115:3 — “But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.”

Daniel 4:35 — “And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”

Romans 9:15, 18 — “For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion…. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

Malachi 3:6 — “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

Jeremiah 32:17 — “Ah, Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:”

God’s Sovereignty over Sin
II Samuel 16:11 — “And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him.”

II Samuel 24:1 — “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.”

Job 1:12 — “And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.”

Job 1:21 — “And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”

Proverbs 21:1 — “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.”

Amos 3:6 — “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”

Isaiah 45:7 — “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Acts 2:23 — “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

Acts 4:27, 28 — “For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

Romans 9:19-22 — “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”


Why did God redeem anyone? The short answer is that on account of the fact that God by nature is love. He never would have created a universe He knew was fundamentally unredeemable. There would have been no point to that.

God as Creator though apparently has some internal desire to create things. So being a loving entity that creates things; it only makes sense that He'd create things with the intent of redemption. And a redemption that's (shall I call it "lottery selective") shows forth the greatest display of that love to those who are redeemed, when there are those who aren't.

And yes I know, that's a bit to wrap one's brain around.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,607.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Well, it took all the way until Wednesday before this topic came up this week. Or did I miss an earlier iteration?

My question is: Why does it matter?

I get up with the intention of doing what the Lord requires of me. So why does this question matter? What difference would have made in my intention to do what the Lord requires of me?


I like your profile. I'm a "veteran of this temporal world" myself.

In which ever way you want to slice this piece of cake - Welcome Home.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sparow

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2014
2,554
428
85
✟489,464.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Your answer resides in knowing who the two parties are who made the covenant. Ultimately the covenant of redemption was made among the members of the Godhead. Those who become redeemed are heirs predestine by the sovereign decree of that covenant. The heir is not the one who writes the will, nor are they the ones who enter into the contract. They are the recipients of what the decedent has decided to do.

Given the scenarios, paradigms and Biblical world view that I use, predestination nullifies most of scripture. Including this:

Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

It is possible to say that scripture is symbolic language, parables and similar non-specific language, oral hieroglyphics and say the specific direct truth is not given and is unknown, but following this, to speculate the unknown is a fools errant.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,607.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Given the scenarios, paradigms and Biblical world view that I use, predestination nullifies most of scripture. Including this:

Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

It is possible to say that scripture is symbolic language, parables and similar non-specific language, oral hieroglyphics and say the specific direct truth is not given and is unknown, but following this, to speculate the unknown is a fools errant.


So you think predestination nullifies the rest of the Scripture huh; and that to speak of what God had planned in eternity is "to speculate the unknown" and "is a fools errant".

Yet do you not know what the Scripture says?

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Excuse me; ehhmm - but there's the plan in eternity that I spoke of as well as the predestination.

Now as for "It is possible to say that scripture is symbolic language, parables and similar non-specific language, oral hieroglyphics and say the specific direct truth is not given and is unknown,"

Well, it's definitely unknown to some!

Matthew 13:
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Jesus doesn't explain in this passage why they don't understand.

Although would you now like an exegesis of Matthew 7:14 and I'm assuming you are referring to "few there are that find" (the gate).

That little word find there indeed is a very interesting word, because in that form, it means to be presently and diligently searching for. So apparently if they still can't find it; it's not of their natural ability to be able to see it.

So apparently there's something wrong with the paradigm, scenarios and Biblical world view that you use.
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Again, your argument is a strawman, a logical fallacy. I can see why you believe in Calvinism. Calvinism removes all the responsibility from man. It's all God. It's easy. I don't have to do anything.
I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion about Calvinism, but it's the exact opposite. We actually have to do everything and our salvation costs us everything, we are enslaved by Christ. We lose our will and all of our freedom and we are ready to die for the honor of Christ.
So it sounds like someone has been lying to you.
 
Upvote 0

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Your belief doesn't explain the difference between those who are saved and those who are lost; it is a covenant that requires the action of two parties.
There is a huge difference between those who are lost and the elect of God. The true believer is required to obey God's will for them and remain faithful to the end.

The natural man ignores Gods will and His commandments, he lives to serve his sinful lusts and desires. He lives as if God doesn't even exist, we are all born into that state and the only difference is God causes some to repent and follow His Son and He leaves others in their fallen sinful state.

So the idea of surrendering their will and life to Christ is foolishness to them. They love their sin way too much to even consider surrendering to the Lordship of Christ. Unless God intervenes and draws the fallen sinner to Himself, they will never find it within their totally depraved state to repent and give their life to serving Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dan1988

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 8, 2018
1,570
623
35
Sydney
✟204,276.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Why did God redeem anyone? The short answer is that on account of the fact that God by nature is love. He never would have created a universe He knew was fundamentally unredeemable. There would have been no point to that.

God as Creator though apparently has some internal desire to create things. So being a loving entity that creates things; it only makes sense that He'd create things with the intent of redemption. And a redemption that's (shall I call it "lottery selective") shows forth the greatest display of that love to those who are redeemed, when there are those who aren't.

And yes I know, that's a bit to wrap one's brain around.
Well God could have created pre programmed Robots, but He obviously choose to create Angels (for whom there is no salvation if they sin) and Mankind, who He created in His own image and provided salvation for billions of them.

Don't ask me why God chooses some and leaves others in their sin, He never revealed the reason to us so nobody should pretend to know the answer but we know He doesn't play a lottery game. He is sovereign so He doesn't answer to anyone, I just happen to trust that He has a perfectly good reason for everything He does.

I would like to ask you, why should He save anyone at all for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If He was just in the human sense, He should condemn all of us. So my question is why did He save billions? the only answer that comes to my mind is because He is a loving and merciful God.
 
Upvote 0