Gods sovereignty & our free will

[ICONO'CLAST]

I have been in several reformed baptist churches...which one did you find, who are the elders?

 

[bling]

No, I couldn't really relate to the prodigal son because I didn't start out with knowing a Father I rejected. I was more like the homeless orphan who grew up on the streets never knowing I even had a Father.

I don't know, what you thought of God might not be that much different then what the prodigal son thought of his father. When the prodigal son asked for his inherriadence now he was really saying to his father: "I wish you were dead so I could have my inherriadence". That is about as hateful as you can get with your father. The father was always extending to the son unconditional unselfish Love (Charity), but the son did not want to accept charity until he really reached bottom.
It would have been better for the prodigal son to not know his father, than to know him and hate him.
The prodigal son did not put expectations on the father concerning himself when returning, but did know the father was good to others.
So what did you think of God prior to turning to Him?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I don't know, what you thought of God might not be that much different then what the prodigal son thought of his father. When the prodigal son asked for his inherriadence now he was really saying to his father: "I wish you were dead so I could have my inherriadence". That is about as hateful as you can get with your father. The father was always extending to the son unconditional unselfish Love (Charity), but the son did not want to accept charity until he really reached bottom.
It would have been better for the prodigal son to not know his father, than to know him and hate him.
The prodigal son did not put expectations on the father concerning himself when returning, but did know the father was good to others.
So what did you think of God prior to turning to Him?

I didn't think God existed. Life seemed pretty much meaningless to me and I suppose in that respect, I wanted to know if any of this mattered? Did anything matter? There just seemed to be an awful lot of suffering and then people die.

I had an aunt who was a convent drop out and would get "all Catholic" (I guess, sort of) on occasions; but none of what she said ever made much sense because half the time she was drunk and just blathering nonsense. She'd also get mean, nasty and extremely critical. She was an alcoholic heavy chain smoker; but so were most of the other adults in my life.

I often say and only half jokingly, that i grew up in the kind of family psychiatrists read about in their text books. It was extremely dysfunctional. There wasn't a lot of physical abuse; but there was a lot of neglect, alcoholism and sexual abuse. My mother was pretty messed up; although not diagnosed with any specific mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia. She was just a drunk who'd have sex with her brother when ever he'd "come into town". I'd often thought mom was "demon possessed" and although I'm not particularly superstitious; I think that was probably a pretty accurate assessment of my mother's spiritual condition. She's been deceased now for almost 17 years.

My dad was a confused and frustrated man but generally pretty moral. He tried on several occasions to fix what was wrong in the family, but never got anywhere. He'd told me at one point (after I'd gotten out of the Navy), that he'd talked to a lawyer about filing for divorce, but the lawyer told him: "You'll never get custody of your girls". So he stuck around because he really wanted to protect us, but didn't know how. Mom would threaten him that if he told the police what was going on in the family; (my brother was sexually abusing us) she'd tell the cops dad was the perp. So he never called the cops himself. He realized that our (and his) only hope really was that we would speak up for ourselves and eventually that's what I did and this came about as the result of my going into counseling through school.

I was depressed as a child and suicidal by the time I'd hit about 14. I went into counseling through the school (on my own accord) because I knew I needed help or I wasn't going to survive. There really wasn't anything worth living for. I don't remember being particularly angry; just extremely depressed. I felt like I was drowning and no one noticed and no one cared.

My "saving grace" humanly speaking was the counselor, teachers at school, my paternal grandmother and dad when he was around. He worked trick work for the local gas and electric company; so he'd sleep at odd hours, get up to make sure we had dinner and go back to bed. Mom did have a job when I was a teenager. She worked as a supervisor in a sheltered workshop. I don't know how she did it, but she managed to get up and go to work every day; then come home and drink until 1 or 2 AM.

My spiritual awaking first came through Al-Anon. "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could (and would) restore us to sanity." That was rather mind blowing to me. Ya mean God not only knows what's going on but actually cares? I started praying for help.

I'd been going to meetings for about a year, when the woman who'd take me asked if I'd be willing to go to a Billy Graham crusade instead of the meeting one warm spring / summer evening. I said "sure why not." Well, at this crusade a quadriplegic (Joni Erickson-Tada) spoke and all I remember her saying was "Jesus helped me get through 20 years in this wheelchair." And I figured; well if He could help her; maybe He'd help me too. So I went down and did the "accept Jesus" thing.

That was my introduction to Christianity and about a week later I bought a Bible. I started reading and went to a local community church that was pretty humanistically liberal; be nice to your neighbors kind of thing, but no real theology.

So I kept reading the Bible and though I didn't understand much of the theology; I was drawn to the concept of a Redeemer who'd come to help me. I didn't really understand the point of the law either or what the Old Testament was about (outside of a bunch of interesting stories). But if God, this stuff is real and You did get a bunch of people out of Egypt thousands of years ago; than maybe You really can help me because - I don't want to die.

I also didn't really understand a whole lot about my own personal sin because I'd been pretty moral myself; although I did know that ending my own life would not be a good thing. Other stupid things teenagers did though, just didn't appeal to me. I already knew what alcoholism was, watched my maternal grandmother die of lung cancer (I'm not going to start smoking - that's stupid) and numerous cousins screw their lives up on drugs. I also had a sister who was always looking for the next boyfriend to curb her "sexual loneliness" and that I thought was just absolutely disgusting. All this "pursuing a good time" just seemed like a bunch of idiocy to me; so, paths I didn't care to go down. I was a loner and didn't really know where I was going / where I wanted to go; but I clearly knew where i didn't want to go!

So in that certain way, I didn't need to "be broken to come to God" because I was already broken before I was consciously aware of His existence.

 

[Concord1968]

I didn't think God existed. Life seemed pretty much meaningless to me and I suppose in that respect, I wanted to know if any of this mattered? Did anything matter? There just seemed to be an awful lot of suffering and then people die.

I had an aunt who was a convent drop out and would get "all Catholic" (I guess, sort of) on occasions; but none of what she said ever made much sense because half the time she was drunk and just blathering nonsense. She'd also get mean, nasty and extremely critical. She was an alcoholic heavy chain smoker; but so were most of the other adults in my life.

I often say and only half jokingly, that i grew up in the kind of family psychiatrists read about in their text books. It was extremely dysfunctional. There wasn't a lot of physical abuse; but there was a lot of neglect, alcoholism and sexual abuse. My mother was pretty messed up; although not diagnosed with any specific mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia. She was just a drunk who'd have sex with her brother when ever he'd "come into town". I'd often thought mom was "demon possessed" and although I'm not particularly superstitious; I think that was probably a pretty accurate assessment of my mother's spiritual condition. She's been deceased now for almost 17 years.

My dad was a confused and frustrated man but generally pretty moral. He tried on several occasions to fix what was wrong in the family, but never got anywhere. He'd told me at one point (after I'd gotten out of the Navy), that he'd talked to a lawyer about filing for divorce, but the lawyer told him: "You'll never get custody of your girls". So he stuck around because he really wanted to protect us, but didn't know how. Mom would threaten him that if he told the police what was going on in the family; (my brother was sexually abusing us) she'd tell the cops dad was the perp. So he never called the cops himself. He realized that our (and his) only hope really was that we would speak up for ourselves and eventually that's what I did and this came about as the result of my going into counseling through school.

I was depressed as a child and suicidal by the time I'd hit about 14. I went into counseling through the school (on my own accord) because I knew I needed help or I wasn't going to survive. There really wasn't anything worth living for. I don't remember being particularly angry; just extremely depressed. I felt like I was drowning and no one noticed and no one cared.

My "saving grace" humanly speaking was the counselor, teachers at school, my paternal grandmother and dad when he was around. He worked trick work for the local gas and electric company; so he'd sleep at odd hours, get up to make sure we had dinner and go back to bed. Mom did have a job when I was a teenager. She worked as a supervisor in a sheltered workshop. I don't know how she did it, but she managed to get up and go to work every day; then come home and drink until 1 or 2 AM.

My spiritual awaking first came through Al-Anon. "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could (and would) restore us to sanity." That was rather mind blowing to me. Ya mean God not only knows what's going on but actually cares? I started praying for help.

I'd been going to meetings for about a year, when the woman who'd take me asked if I'd be willing to go to a Billy Graham crusade instead of the meeting one warm spring / summer evening. I said "sure why not." Well, at this crusade a quadriplegic (Joni Erickson-Tada) spoke and all I remember her saying was "Jesus helped me get through 20 years in this wheelchair." And I figured; well if He could help her; maybe He'd help me too. So I went down and did the "accept Jesus" thing.

That was my introduction to Christianity and about a week later I bought a Bible. I started reading and went to a local community church that was pretty humanistically liberal; be nice to your neighbors kind of thing, but no real theology.

So I kept reading the Bible and though I didn't understand much of the theology; I was drawn to the concept of a Redeemer who'd come to help me. I didn't really understand the point of the law either or what the Old Testament was about (outside of a bunch of interesting stories). But if God, this stuff is real and You did get a bunch of people out of Egypt thousands of years ago; than maybe You really can help me because - I don't want to die.

I also didn't really understand a whole lot about my own personal sin because I'd been pretty moral myself; although I did know that ending my own life would not be a good thing. Other stupid things teenagers did though, just didn't appeal to me. I already knew what alcoholism was, watched my maternal grandmother die of lung cancer (I'm not going to start smoking - that's stupid) and numerous cousins screw their lives up on drugs. I also had a sister who was always looking for the next boyfriend to curb her "sexual loneliness" and that I thought was just absolutely disgusting. All this "pursuing a good time" just seemed like a bunch of idiocy to me; so, paths I didn't care to go down. I was a loner and didn't really know where I was going / where I wanted to go; but I clearly knew where i didn't want to go!

So in that certain way, I didn't need to "be broken to come to God" because I was already broken before I was consciously aware of His existence.

Thank you for your witness, God bless!

 

[Hawkins]

The Bible doesn't tell us, how or why God choose His elect. All we know is that He did, if He wanted us to know He would have told us, so we shouldn't get into the deep water of trying to understand the mystery's or God.

The Bible doesn't say that those not saved are predestined either! So you can't say for sure that,

"Everything we have was given to us by God, including the ability to choose correctly".

 

[BABerean2]

"Willeth what thy commandeth, and commandeth what thy willeth" St. Augustine

What is known today as "Calvinism" began as Augustine's attempt to explain how the children of Christians could become the "elect" through infant baptism.
It had to depend on the will of another, since they had not come to faith in Christ.

Do a little research on what the Early Church Fathers before Augustine believed about free will.

Dr. Ken Wilson has read all of the writings of Augustine, in chronological order.
His thesis at Oxford was about the writings of Augustine.

Dr. Wilson is currently a professor at Grace School of Theology.

.

 

[bling]

I didn't think God existed. Life seemed pretty much meaningless to me and I suppose in that respect, I wanted to know if any of this mattered? Did anything matter? There just seemed to be an awful lot of suffering and then people die.

I had an aunt who was a convent drop out and would get "all Catholic" (I guess, sort of) on occasions; but none of what she said ever made much sense because half the time she was drunk and just blathering nonsense. She'd also get mean, nasty and extremely critical. She was an alcoholic heavy chain smoker; but so were most of the other adults in my life.

I often say and only half jokingly, that i grew up in the kind of family psychiatrists read about in their text books. It was extremely dysfunctional. There wasn't a lot of physical abuse; but there was a lot of neglect, alcoholism and sexual abuse. My mother was pretty messed up; although not diagnosed with any specific mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia. She was just a drunk who'd have sex with her brother when ever he'd "come into town". I'd often thought mom was "demon possessed" and although I'm not particularly superstitious; I think that was probably a pretty accurate assessment of my mother's spiritual condition. She's been deceased now for almost 17 years.

My dad was a confused and frustrated man but generally pretty moral. He tried on several occasions to fix what was wrong in the family, but never got anywhere. He'd told me at one point (after I'd gotten out of the Navy), that he'd talked to a lawyer about filing for divorce, but the lawyer told him: "You'll never get custody of your girls". So he stuck around because he really wanted to protect us, but didn't know how. Mom would threaten him that if he told the police what was going on in the family; (my brother was sexually abusing us) she'd tell the cops dad was the perp. So he never called the cops himself. He realized that our (and his) only hope really was that we would speak up for ourselves and eventually that's what I did and this came about as the result of my going into counseling through school.

I was depressed as a child and suicidal by the time I'd hit about 14. I went into counseling through the school (on my own accord) because I knew I needed help or I wasn't going to survive. There really wasn't anything worth living for. I don't remember being particularly angry; just extremely depressed. I felt like I was drowning and no one noticed and no one cared.

My "saving grace" humanly speaking was the counselor, teachers at school, my paternal grandmother and dad when he was around. He worked trick work for the local gas and electric company; so he'd sleep at odd hours, get up to make sure we had dinner and go back to bed. Mom did have a job when I was a teenager. She worked as a supervisor in a sheltered workshop. I don't know how she did it, but she managed to get up and go to work every day; then come home and drink until 1 or 2 AM.

My spiritual awaking first came through Al-Anon. "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could (and would) restore us to sanity." That was rather mind blowing to me. Ya mean God not only knows what's going on but actually cares? I started praying for help.

I'd been going to meetings for about a year, when the woman who'd take me asked if I'd be willing to go to a Billy Graham crusade instead of the meeting one warm spring / summer evening. I said "sure why not." Well, at this crusade a quadriplegic (Joni Erickson-Tada) spoke and all I remember her saying was "Jesus helped me get through 20 years in this wheelchair." And I figured; well if He could help her; maybe He'd help me too. So I went down and did the "accept Jesus" thing.

That was my introduction to Christianity and about a week later I bought a Bible. I started reading and went to a local community church that was pretty humanistically liberal; be nice to your neighbors kind of thing, but no real theology.

So I kept reading the Bible and though I didn't understand much of the theology; I was drawn to the concept of a Redeemer who'd come to help me. I didn't really understand the point of the law either or what the Old Testament was about (outside of a bunch of interesting stories). But if God, this stuff is real and You did get a bunch of people out of Egypt thousands of years ago; than maybe You really can help me because - I don't want to die.

I also didn't really understand a whole lot about my own personal sin because I'd been pretty moral myself; although I did know that ending my own life would not be a good thing. Other stupid things teenagers did though, just didn't appeal to me. I already knew what alcoholism was, watched my maternal grandmother die of lung cancer (I'm not going to start smoking - that's stupid) and numerous cousins screw their lives up on drugs. I also had a sister who was always looking for the next boyfriend to curb her "sexual loneliness" and that I thought was just absolutely disgusting. All this "pursuing a good time" just seemed like a bunch of idiocy to me; so, paths I didn't care to go down. I was a loner and didn't really know where I was going / where I wanted to go; but I clearly knew where i didn't want to go!

So in that certain way, I didn't need to "be broken to come to God" because I was already broken before I was consciously aware of His existence.

Just being willing to accept help is all that is needed, you might not know God can help you, but you can hope the Creator of the universe can and will.
Your choice was not to become a soldier for Christ (you did not know what that meant, but you were willing to accept help (charity/mercy/grace/Love).
After you have been helped by councilors and teachers (probably good Christians) you can respond out of gratitude.

I taught Sunday Bible School in the prison and heard some really tragic stories like yours, but some of those young men became giants in the Kingdom.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Just being willing to accept help is all that is needed, you might not know God can help you, but you can hope the Creator of the universe can and will.
Your choice was not to become a soldier for Christ (you did not know what that meant, but you were willing to accept help (charity/mercy/grace/Love).
After you have been helped by councilors and teachers (probably good Christians) you can respond out of gratitude.

I taught Sunday Bible School in the prison and heard some really tragic stories like yours, but some of those young men became giants in the Kingdom.

I've already been redeemed. I know that now; so, I don't know what you think you are telling me?

It seems to me you missed the point.

 

[ladodgers6]

What is known today as "Calvinism" began as Augustine's attempt to explain how the children of Christians could become the "elect" through infant baptism.
It had to depend on the will of another, since they had not come to faith in Christ.

Do a little research on what the Early Church Fathers before Augustine believed about free will.

Dr. Ken Wilson has read all of the writings of Augustine, in chronological order.
His thesis at Oxford was about the writings of Augustine.

Dr. Wilson is currently a professor at Grace School of Theology.

.

Thanks for sharing. I have learned a lot from St. Augustine, especially his debates with Pelagius on Free-Will, and other topics. I have learned over the years to do your homework and research everything one reads. A lot of the early church Fathers believed in Justification by Faith Alone, which is the core of the Reformation and the Reformers, including St. Augustine.

 

[The Righterzpen]

What is known today as "Calvinism" began as Augustine's attempt to explain how the children of Christians could become the "elect" through infant baptism.
It had to depend on the will of another, since they had not come to faith in Christ.

Do a little research on what the Early Church Fathers before Augustine believed about free will.

Dr. Ken Wilson has read all of the writings of Augustine, in chronological order.
His thesis at Oxford was about the writings of Augustine.

Dr. Wilson is currently a professor at Grace School of Theology.

.

I thought that what you are saying here regarding infant baptism originated with reformation "covenant theology". (I'll have to watch the video you posted.)

 

[BABerean2]

I thought that what you are saying here regarding infant baptism originated with reformation "covenant theology". (I'll have to watch the video you posted.)

Some of the Reformers failed to let go of all of the un-Biblical practices of the Roman church.
Infant baptism is one of them.

Even today, many claim their children are placed into the covenant through infant baptism.
That claim goes back to Augustine.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Thanks for sharing. I have learned a lot from St. Augustine, especially his debates with Pelagius on Free-Will, and other topics. I have learned over the years to do your homework and research everything one reads. A lot of the early church Fathers believed in Justification by Faith Alone, which is the core of the Reformation and the Reformers, including St. Augustine.

Faith cannot come through infant baptism, based on the verse below.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

It also reveals that regeneration does not precede faith.

.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Some of the Reformers failed to let go of all of the un-Biblical practices of the Roman church.
Infant baptism is one of them.

Even today, many claim their children are placed into the covenant through infant baptism.
That claim goes back to Augustine.

.

I watched the video you posted. Although I don't agree with all of what they were saying; it was informative. I didn't know where Augustine got that idea from, or why it had become as such.

I think ultimately baptizing babies comes from the heresy of believing water baptism is some how involved in regeneration. And if you get stuck in that; of course baptizing babies "is the right thing to do".

Covenant theology tries to carry over things that I have to scratch my head and say - well if you're going to "carry over" the notion of baptism from circumcising all males of a household 8 days old and over; than.... why do you not practice paedo-communion? Covenant theologians have all sorts of hoops to jump through on that.

Also of that video though: I can not answer as to what the historic beliefs were of "deterministic" "Manichian / gnostic" or what they later call "calvinism"; but I can say I agree with the "5 points". I'm also not a "double predestination" proponent either.

I'd have to look into what Calvin believed about men being accountable due to "original sin" of Adam; but I don't believe that either. The Scripture says "the wages of sin......" and you can't "earn a wage" for "work" not yet done. There certainly is a "real time component" in this equation between God's eternal predetermined plan and men's actions as they relate to "earning" the wrath of God.

Although our salvation is not determined by our choice regarding God, independent of God's Divine action; the punishment we earn for our sin is definitely determined by choices we make as independent moral agents. By the corruption brought upon us from the knowledge of good and evil; the only possible outcome is rebellion. So in that sense; with the exception of Christ, no one's will is really free. We do have the capacity to decide "Will I murder my neighbor or won't I." and this is how we affect the wages we earn. "Total Depravity" does not automatically equate to "depraved totally". There certainly is a component of individual volition in there. And that does interplay with God's sovereignty. How that "coordinates"; I'm not sure? But independent will is not only a human designation. We see this in the animal kingdom too.

Complicated subject that's difficult to parse.

 

[ladodgers6]

Faith cannot come through infant baptism, based on the verse below.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

It also reveals that regeneration does not precede faith.

.

And when did I said it did?

 

[BABerean2]

And when did I said it did?

Those who originally called themselves "Calvinists" did...

.

 

[ladodgers6]

Those who originally called themselves "Calvinists" did...

.

Okay, I'll check it out and get back to you. While I do my homework on that. Please address this for me. Were infants of believers in the OT circumcised?

 

[Bobber]

Faith cannot come through infant baptism, based on the verse below.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

It also reveals that regeneration does not precede faith.

.

Found that video very informative and I agree with the man. I wish I could have seen what they answered him.

 

[BABerean2]

Were infants of believers in the OT circumcised?

Yes. For male babies on the 8th day of life.

It was a command given to Abraham as the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant.
However, based on Galatians 3:16 the Abrahamic Covenant was fulfilled by Christ.

Based on Galatians 3:27-29, I am Abraham's seed and inheritor of the promise through Christ, instead of through my circumcision.

What did Paul say about circumcision in the New Covenant?

Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom_2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.


Gal_5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.


Php_3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,


Col_2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,


We do not need to be circumcised, because we have Christ who was circumcised for us.

Circumcision of the flesh was merely the shadow of the circumcision of the heart, through the Spirit, described in Romans 2:28-29.

Is there a commandment in the New Testament to circumcise babies, or to baptize babies, after the death of Christ?

Anyone who is attempting to substitute infant circumcision, with infant baptism, is not doing it based on scripture.

.