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God's sovereignty and the responsibility of mankind. A reformed question.

St_Worm2

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I'll have to find it again.

I believe that Calvin was opposing the extreme free will beliefs of Servetus at that point in Institutes, a belief/teaching (of Servetus) that infants, since they had not freely chosen to believe before they died, were consigned to the Lake of Fire on that basis, even though Servetus admits that they were incapable of doing so (this belief/teaching was thoroughly condemned by Calvin).

I'll get back to you as soon as I find it.

--David
 
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Neostarwcc

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So God just passes over the wicked? Wasn't it a teaching of Sproul that he also predestined the wicked to hell? Yet, that predestination isn't a stain on his holiness because as sinners we all deserve hell and thats why God gave us grace. He mentioned what I said in my OP (neither side gets injustice) I'll have to search youtube for the specific video but I've seen it.

But it's specifically that that I'm confused about. While nobody will ultimately get injustice it's hard for humanity to grasp how God can choose those he loves and condemn those he hates. But we see this in the Bible too (God closing the doors on the arc for example so nobody could get in is one example.)
 
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Neostarwcc

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Who was Severtus? I'm finding this interesting and would like to know more.
 
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JAL

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Double-predestination logically contradicts a loving and fair God. It's really that simple.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Double-predestination logically contradicts a loving and fair God. It's really that simple.

God is fair with double predestination. Like I said, neither gets injustice. In order for God to be not fair he would have to commit an injustice. Loving idk. It would depend on one's definition of loving...
 
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Brother-Mike

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God is fair with double predestination. Like I said, neither gets injustice. In order for God to be not fair he would have to commit an injustice. Loving idk. It would depend on one's definition of loving...
Seconded!
 
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St_Worm2

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Who was Severtus? I'm finding this interesting and would like to know more.
This would be a great place to start (and may be all that you need on Servetus): History of the Christian Church, Schaff, 1910 edition with power search. SERVETUS: HIS LIFE. OPINIONS, TRIAL, AND EXECUTION

BTW, if you do not already own Philip Schaff's 8-volume History of the Christian Church, I would HIGHLY recommend grabbing it up. It takes a look at the church from the 1st Century to the post-Reformational period, and it is a ~GREAT~ read throughout (unusual for a even single book on history, IMHO , much less an 8-volume set ). And rather than the $600.00 that the 8 volumes used to cost in hardback, you can get all eight volumes in Kindle right now for $1.99 (or in Logos, if you use that software, but at $50, it's a bit more expensive).

Or just read it all for free online at the opening link above, though it is easier to read and searchable (of course) on Kindle and/or Logos.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - Michael Servetus was an Anabaptist agitator who was always in trouble with Rome and with the Reformer. Also, there are those who attack the systematic theology of Calvinism by ad hominem attacks against the man for whom the theology was named, and Servetus is often the first ad hominem that they use.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I've never used kindle before but I can probably figure it out $1.99 is WAY cheaper.
 
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St_Worm2

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Neostarwcc

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JAL

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God is fair with double predestination. Like I said, neither gets injustice. In order for God to be not fair he would have to commit an injustice.
You seemed pretty clear that the Reformed God is unjust, when you said:

"On one field we have God's sovereignty. Which means that God declares everything that comes to pass and there is nothing that has happened or ever will happen that wasn't foreordained by God (Ps 139:16, Is 46:10-13)...nobody can do anything outside of God's will."


Very annoying that Reformed thinkers frequently conflate two issues that should be treated separately.
...(1) Did Adam and Eve have free will? And, even if they did, in what sense it is justice for their descendants to be born with a fallen nature?
...(2) Do those born with fallen nature have freedom to choose salvation?

Theology should clarify things. Things become less clear when issues are jumbled together.



Loving idk. It would depend on one's definition of loving...

Would you consider yourself a loving father if you treated your children after the fashion of double-predestination?
 
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JAL

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I understand your sentiment.

Hell is a serious problem: it is eternal and permanent...Instead of denying determinism, which is logical, I am beginning to question the nature of Hell itself.
Good point. Please be open-minded to annihilationism, for example. Hell is unlikely to be an infinitely long sentence for a finite crime.

You describe the horrors of double-predestination:
Since Arminians tend to resist full monergism/election, their solution seems inadequate to me. On the other hand they are correct that Paul believed anyone can be saved (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). Let's go back to Adam and resolve this properly. True justice allows me to suffer consequences for Adam's sins only if I myself am Adam - or at least a tiny piece of his physical soul. Back then we functioned as one dense physical mind named Adam even though you and I don't remember it, we don't remember freely choosing to consume the forbidden fruit. Millard J. Erickson has rightly stated, "We were all [physically] present in Adam, and all sinned in his act" (Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2001, reprint), p. 654).

Romans 9:22: "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

God cannot feel wrath/anger at the innocent! Nor at deterministic puppets! The point of that passage is that God has every right to elect whomsoever He wills because we lost our rights when we sinned in Adam. You'll reply that Jacob and Esau were elected before they did anything bad of good. Not true. Admittedly as Jacob and Esau - in that prenatal state - they had as yet done nothing wrong. But Romans 1 thru 8 came first. According to those earlier chapters, all sinned, at least in Adam.

Can anyone be saved? In my view, God preelected sections/pieces of Adam's physical soul unto salvation before the foundation of the world, in case he should fall. My theory is that every human being's soul consists of at least one elect piece. That means anyone can be saved. If a person dies unsaved, his soul goes to hell, but God extracts his elect piece, moving it on to another generation. Eventually all the elect pieces will be saved by divine monergism.

To summarize: all people are the elect, and as such, anyone MIGHT be saved.

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may [MIGHT] obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory." (2 Tim 2:10).

Intercession should be made for everyone because prayer can move God to monergistically save anyone.
 
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Jonaitis

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Interesting interpretation, but I'll have to disagree on the "elect pieces" in all men, it just doesn't seem right to me.
 
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JAL

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Interesting interpretation, but I'll have to disagree on the "elect pieces" in all men, it just doesn't seem right to me.
To start with, we must be pieces of Adam, right? How else can there be a just view of the Fall?

BTW, Christ was a piece of the enthroned Son. That is my solution to the Incarnation - and it provides the ONLY clear, coherent explanation in church history.
 
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Jonaitis

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See, now there is an underlying reformulation of the Trinity involved. I can't get behind it. Prove that Christ is not wholly the Son.
 
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JAL

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See, now there is an underlying reformulation of the Trinity involved. I can't get behind it. Prove that Christ is not wholly the Son.
It doesn't matter. The system is flexible. If your preferred version is that the entire physical Son came off the throne into Mary's womb, that's fine too.
 
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JAL

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See, now there is an underlying reformulation of the Trinity involved. I can't get behind it. Prove that Christ is not wholly the Son.
Why should I have to prove anything? All other explanations are totally incoherent - plagued with apparent contradictions, at least as far as human understanding is concerned.
 
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Jonaitis

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It doesn't matter. The system is flexible. If your preferred version is that the entire physical Son came off the throne into Mary's womb, that's fine too.
Well, I don't believe that the Son is a "someone," but the direct expression of the Godhead that became a someone named Jesus.
 
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Jonaitis

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Why should I have to prove anything? All other explanations are totally incoherent - plagued with apparent contradictions, at least as far as human understanding is concerned.
You are trying to convince me of your position? What is the biblical support?
 
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