God's Prophetic Clock...

[Terral]

Hi SawDust:
Thank you very much for writing.

Sawdust >> Now, let me try to make sense of what you're saying here. I don't have a problem with the age thing. I have always seen this time frame from Genesis 1 to the end of Rev.20 as one age with Rev.21 beginning the new age. (I think that is what you are saying, yes?)

Yes. Absolutely. The same ‘darkness’ reins throughout this ‘evil age.’ The difference is that Satan is bound for that single period towards the end of the age; then loosed at the very end for a time.

Sawdust >> But I'm having a dickens of a problem with the concept of Christ not returning till the end of this age as defined above and this seems to be what you are saying. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so let me see if I'm seeing the same picture as you intend me to see.

I am only the interpreter, Sawdust, God wrote the words. Christ walked with the Disciples for almost three years, then they came and asked this question:

“As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matt .24:3.

Here is a question for you, Sawdust: “How did they know to join together His coming and the end of the age?” The fact is that we do not know. All we know is that they understood from earlier teachings that He was coming again at the end of the age. Christ did not hesitate in giving them a reply . . . right? He went on to describe the events of Daniel, and even mentions Daniel and the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15). Right or wrong? Can we gain a mental picture pertaining to the context of Christ’s words here by examining carefully the words of Daniel? Answer: Absolutely. Christ gave us the key to unlock that door. Guess what? The ‘great tribulation’ starts in Matt. 24:21. The gathering of the faithful/elect occurs in Matt. 24:31. The ‘Son of Man’ returns there in verse 30. So we can go back into Daniel and see that Christ’s coming is after the regular sacrifice is abolished, and after that ‘prince’ (Dan. 9:26) cuts off the Messiah. That is the end of the Messianic Kingdom, Sawdust, and Christ still has not returned. How on earth can He possibly return at the beginning and sit on David’s throne? Who is this ‘prince’ that he can come and cut off Jesus Christ? That is impossible, and an erroneous interpretation. You quote Paul’s words below that show clearly that Christ destroys him with the breath of His coming. The Messiah who is cut off is David (Eze. 37:24+25).

Sawdust’s version of my clock >> The clock according to Terral (maybe): Christ is waiting in heaven, (waiting, waiting) Meanwhile on earth, Elijah returns, restores the Kingdom to Israel and brings in a "golden age" (the millenium?)Then comes the end, Holy Spirit returns to heaven, Satan is loosed, Christ returns to earth, slays Satan with His breath and chucks him in the lake of fire.End of age, new age begins.

Christ went up as the Holy Spirit began offering kingdom to Israel (Acts 1-2).
Kingdom was being rejected according to the Holy Spirit’s example of Steven being killed [Steven means Crown] (Acts 7).
God raised Paul up and gives him the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) for the Gentile body of Christ (Acts 9).
Paul turns away from Israel and the kingdom to go specifically to the Gentile body (Acts 28; about 61 Ad.).
Offering of Kingdom fails and Israel leveled (70 Ad.)
Time of restoration for Gentile Body of Christ (35 Ad – rapture (1Thes. 4:13-17)).
Holy Spirit returns to waiting Elijah, and it descends upon Him. The resurrection of Eze. 37:1-12 is fulfilled and millions of the house of Israel are gathered and baptized into the Kingdom on the western side of the Jordan River. When Elijah is finished baptizing the final soul, he turns and bends over and smacks the riverbank with his mantle, and the river divides and water is heaped up so that All Israel can walk across. 2Kings 2:8. Elijah instructs the men to gather twelve large stones, and they are stacked into an altar for the Lord, as a reminder to all the generations of that day. 1Kings 18:31. Israel shall occupy the land all the way to the EuphratesRiver without the firing of a single shot. Gen. 15:18. Elijah will command every foreign soul out of the land, and all who disobey will be utterly destroyed (Acts 3:23) by the ‘fire of the Lord’ (1Kings 18:38, 2Kings 1:10, etc.). The Holy Spirit will restore the kingdom to Israel in all its glory. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) will be the good news of that day. At that time Christ’s words pertaining to John will be fulfilled (“Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Matt. 11:19. John is Elijah (Matt. 11:14) and ‘more than a prophet’ (Matt. 11:9), and shall wear the soft clothes in ‘kings palaces’ (Matt. 11:8). This Elijah/John the Baptist character is the most extraordinary person in Scripture (not counting our Lord Jesus Christ; of course). His true identity when realized is something really amazing indeed. List all of Christ’s clues and see if you can solve the riddles.).

Things cruise along, until the end of the age is near. Satan is loosed and the antichrist (beast; prince of Daniel 9:26) comes along and becomes the ruler of this world from the revived Gentile Empire seated in Europe. He alters time and the law (Dan. 7:25) to better suit his one world government, religion and economy; a mark upon every man (Rev. 13:6), etc.. In the end, the darkness of the revived empire and this man will infiltrate the Kingdom of Israel, the land of the prince, the Temple and the Holy Place. Then, at the right time, Christ returns with the members of His body and the forces of darkness fall like toy soldiers. Imperishable against perishable always wins. Then the resurrection and the judgment, the chaff goes into the fire and the new Age begins.

Sawdust’s commentary >> Unless I have completely misunderstood you, you will see why I'm having difficulty here because there is no accounting for the tribulation, the war in heaven, Satan being cast down, no chaining of Satan, the coming of Christ with His saints prior to any "golden era", no signing of a peace treaty between the Antichrist and Israel, no worldwide destruction, wars, disease, famine etc.

All of the elements you mention here are in the timeline. Satan is chained to start the Messianic Kingdom. We meet Christ in the air (1Thes. 4:13-17) to start the Kingdom. The Holy Spirit must deliver us up to the throne of Christ, before He can return and begin working with Elijah. We are with Christ forever more from that time. The tribulation occurs at the end of the age, Sawdust. Christ tells you that in Matt. 24:21-29. His coming is just after that time. The peace treaty is with that ‘prince’ who desecrates the temple during the tribulation. He destroys many through peace first, then destroys through war. When Christ is revealed to the world, then we are revealed with Him in Glory. Col. 3:4.

Sawdust >> Seeing as this thread is titled "God's prophetic clock" maybe you could give a brief scenario overview as to what you see happening so I can understand what is in your mind a little clearer. (please)

God’s Prophetic Clock stopped ticking some 2000 years ago. Remember that this clock pertains to Israel and the prophecies that relate to her only. Today, we are living within one of the restoration ‘times’ of Acts 3:21 where the ‘body of Christ’ is being restored with members; the heavenly restoration. Can the kingdom be restored to Israel with Satan and his rulers of darkness in power? No. They must be chained first, and that is the result of the heavenly war. However, it is through those ruling powers that the world is run today during this ‘evil age.’ How do you just cut the spiritual umbilical cord of this world without having a means to replace it? That is the purpose of God gathering together these Gentile members of the body of Christ, so that we can be seated in those vacated heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) as judges and rulers of the coming New Age. That is why Paul says we are to judge the world and the angels. 1Cor. 6:2+3. Therefore, the restoration times are ‘body of Christ’ (heavenly: New Jerusalem) first, then ‘bride of Christ’ (earthly: Jerusalem/kingdom) second. When Satan is chained to start the Kingdom, then that includes all of his rulers of darkness.

Sawdust The one thing that stands out most in my mind is you state Christ can't return to earth while the Holy Spirit remains. I agree, but in taking to account (quote 2thes. 2:5-9).

Sawdust >> My understanding from this is the world descends into anarchy at the return of the Spirit to heaven. The tribulation is effectively Lucifer's "golden hour" when he gets to "strut his stuff" on earth in all his "glory" (so called). The judgement, effected at the Cross, is now poured out from Heaven (God's wrath) and woe, woe, woe to those who have chosen evil rather than believe on the Righteousness of God. Personally I don't understand the mindset that would choose darkness over light, but then again, I don't think I want to either.

How is it that so many people today cannot see Paul’s gospel of Christ’s shed blood as ‘our gospel’ for today? Why must they add the works from the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) into the gospel of Christ’s shed blood? Why can’t they see the differences between Peter’s ‘repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins’ (Acts 2:38) and Paul’s ‘redemption through His blood’ (Eph. 1:7) as the two separate gospel messages that they represent? Folks are going to hell for failure to see the difference (2Pet. 3:14-16, 2Cor. 4:3+4). Therefore, we should realize that it is most difficult to recognize and make the right choices when we are living inside the restoration time ourselves. When people actually see this beast/antichrist, then he will have every appearance of being the embodiment of God on earth. Since many people judge by appearances and are easily deceived, then he will drag many with him into the lake of fire. Rev. 19:20.

Sawdust >> Sorry if I'm confused but you are covering a lot of ground here.

God’s Prophetic Clock covers a big area. I personally would rather stay within the topics that most apply to the members of the body of Christ, instead of those that affect the bride for the coming Messianic Kingdom and beyond. After all, we will know all about that, when we are with the Lord (1Thes. 4:13-17).

God bless,

Terral

 

[sawdust]

Hi SawDust:
Thank you very much for writing. Yes. Absolutely. The same ‘darkness’ reins throughout this ‘evil age.’ The difference is that Satan is bound for that single period towards the end of the age; then loosed at the very end for a time. I am only the interpreter, Sawdust, God wrote the words. Christ walked with the Disciples for almost three years, then they came and asked this question:
Here is a question for you, Sawdust: “How did they know to join together His coming and the end of the age?” The fact is that we do not know. All we know is that they understood from earlier teachings that He was coming again at the end of the age. Christ did not hesitate in giving them a reply . . . right? He went on to describe the events of Daniel, and even mentions Daniel and the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15). Right or wrong? Can we gain a mental picture pertaining to the context of Christ’s words here by examining carefully the words of Daniel? Answer: Absolutely. Christ gave us the key to unlock that door. Guess what? The ‘great tribulation’ starts in Matt. 24:21. The gathering of the faithful/elect occurs in Matt. 24:31. The ‘Son of Man’ returns there in verse 30. So we can go back into Daniel and see that Christ’s coming is after the regular sacrifice is abolished, and after that ‘prince’ (Dan. 9:26) cuts off the Messiah. That is the end of the Messianic Kingdom, Sawdust, and Christ still has not returned. How on earth can He possibly return at the beginning and sit on David’s throne? Who is this ‘prince’ that he can come and cut off Jesus Christ? That is impossible, and an erroneous interpretation. You quote Paul’s words below that show clearly that Christ destroys him with the breath of His coming. The Messiah who is cut off is David (Eze. 37:24+25).
[/size][/font]Christ went up as the Holy Spirit began offering kingdom to Israel (Acts 1-2).
Kingdom was being rejected according to the Holy Spirit’s example of Steven being killed [Steven means Crown] (Acts 7).
God raised Paul up and gives him the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) for the Gentile body of Christ (Acts 9).
Paul turns away from Israel and the kingdom to go specifically to the Gentile body (Acts 28; about 61 Ad.).
Offering of Kingdom fails and Israel leveled (70 Ad.)
Time of restoration for Gentile Body of Christ (35 Ad – rapture (1Thes. 4:13-17)).
Holy Spirit returns to waiting Elijah, and it descends upon Him. The resurrection of Eze. 37:1-12 is fulfilled and millions of the house of Israel are gathered and baptized into the Kingdom on the western side of the Jordan River. When Elijah is finished baptizing the final soul, he turns and bends over and smacks the riverbank with his mantle, and the river divides and water is heaped up so that All Israel can walk across. 2Kings 2:8. Elijah instructs the men to gather twelve large stones, and they are stacked into an altar for the Lord, as a reminder to all the generations of that day. 1Kings 18:31. Israel shall occupy the land all the way to the EuphratesRiver without the firing of a single shot. Gen. 15:18. Elijah will command every foreign soul out of the land, and all who disobey will be utterly destroyed (Acts 3:23) by the ‘fire of the Lord’ (1Kings 18:38, 2Kings 1:10, etc.). The Holy Spirit will restore the kingdom to Israel in all its glory. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) will be the good news of that day. At that time Christ’s words pertaining to John will be fulfilled (“Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Matt. 11:19. John is Elijah (Matt. 11:14) and ‘more than a prophet’ (Matt. 11:9), and shall wear the soft clothes in ‘kings palaces’ (Matt. 11:8). This Elijah/John the Baptist character is the most extraordinary person in Scripture (not counting our Lord Jesus Christ; of course). His true identity when realized is something really amazing indeed. List all of Christ’s clues and see if you can solve the riddles.).

Things cruise along, until the end of the age is near. Satan is loosed and the antichrist (beast; prince of Daniel 9:26) comes along and becomes the ruler of this world from the revived Gentile Empire seated in Europe. He alters time and the law (Dan. 7:25) to better suit his one world government, religion and economy; a mark upon every man (Rev. 13:6), etc.. In the end, the darkness of the revived empire and this man will infiltrate the Kingdom of Israel, the land of the prince, the Temple and the Holy Place. Then, at the right time, Christ returns with the members of His body and the forces of darkness fall like toy soldiers. Imperishable against perishable always wins. Then the resurrection and the judgment, the chaff goes into the fire and the new Age begins.

All of the elements you mention here are in the timeline. Satan is chained to start the Messianic Kingdom. We meet Christ in the air (1Thes. 4:13-17) to start the Kingdom. The Holy Spirit must deliver us up to the throne of Christ, before He can return and begin working with Elijah. We are with Christ forever more from that time. The tribulation occurs at the end of the age, Sawdust. Christ tells you that in Matt. 24:21-29. His coming is just after that time. The peace treaty is with that ‘prince’ who desecrates the temple during the tribulation. He destroys many through peace first, then destroys through war. When Christ is revealed to the world, then we are revealed with Him in Glory. Col. 3:4.
God’s Prophetic Clock stopped ticking some 2000 years ago. Remember that this clock pertains to Israel and the prophecies that relate to her only. Today, we are living within one of the restoration ‘times’ of Acts 3:21 where the ‘body of Christ’ is being restored with members; the heavenly restoration. Can the kingdom be restored to Israel with Satan and his rulers of darkness in power? No. They must be chained first, and that is the result of the heavenly war. However, it is through those ruling powers that the world is run today during this ‘evil age.’ How do you just cut the spiritual umbilical cord of this world without having a means to replace it? That is the purpose of God gathering together these Gentile members of the body of Christ, so that we can be seated in those vacated heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) as judges and rulers of the coming New Age. That is why Paul says we are to judge the world and the angels. 1Cor. 6:2+3. Therefore, the restoration times are ‘body of Christ’ (heavenly: New Jerusalem) first, then ‘bride of Christ’ (earthly: Jerusalem/kingdom) second. When Satan is chained to start the Kingdom, then that includes all of his rulers of darkness. How is it that so many people today cannot see Paul’s gospel of Christ’s shed blood as ‘our gospel’ for today? Why must they add the works from the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) into the gospel of Christ’s shed blood? Why can’t they see the differences between Peter’s ‘repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins’ (Acts 2:38) and Paul’s ‘redemption through His blood’ (Eph. 1:7) as the two separate gospel messages that they represent? Folks are going to hell for failure to see the difference (2Pet. 3:14-16, 2Cor. 4:3+4). Therefore, we should realize that it is most difficult to recognize and make the right choices when we are living inside the restoration time ourselves. When people actually see this beast/antichrist, then he will have every appearance of being the embodiment of God on earth. Since many people judge by appearances and are easily deceived, then he will drag many with him into the lake of fire. Rev. 19:20.

God’s Prophetic Clock covers a big area. I personally would rather stay within the topics that most apply to the members of the body of Christ, instead of those that affect the bride for the coming Messianic Kingdom and beyond. After all, we will know all about that, when we are with the Lord (1Thes. 4:13-17).

God bless,

Terral

I have to be honest with you Terral. I am enjoying your posts but every now and then you seem to throw a curve ball from way out of left field. I wonder why you say what you say and where you get your understanding from.
Once again there is a lot of stuff being said and I don't have a great deal of time so I'm going to deal with just one thing at a time. OK? I'm coming back tomorrow, God willing, and take it from there.

peace

 

[sawdust]

Hi Again.


Terral wrote:

Here is a question for you, Sawdust: “How did they know to join together His coming and the end of the age?” The fact is that we do not know. All we know is that they understood from earlier teachings that He was coming again at the end of the age.

Let's deal with this one first.
You say in one breath we don't know how they knew then in the next you say we know they understood. What makes you think they joined them together as one event? The text doesn't suggest that (unless there is something in the original Greek I don't know about).

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matt.24:3

There are actually three questions here.
1. When will these things be? (this is in reference to verse 2, the destruction of the temple.)
2. What will be the sign of your coming?
3. What will signify the end of the age?

Did the Jews see the coming of the Messiah at the end of the age? The teaching that I have had suggests they saw His coming as the end of Gentile rule and the establishment of Israel as the World Power on Earth for evermore.

Let me show what I have seen so far then you might better understand what I'm ignorant of.

Isaiah says (ch.65)
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.

And John says (Rev.21:1-4)
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2Then I, (v.3)John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

They both talk about a new heaven and new earth and although they sound similar, I see differences.
1. There still appears to be a national identity in Isaiah (v.22) but not in John. (v.3 ref. "God is with men")
2. The implication in Isaiah is that people will still die but at a very old age (v.20) whereas John says there is no more death.

So I have to wonder whether the new earth Isaiah sees is the same new earth John sees and whether they may in fact come into being at different times. Isaiah's earth seems to fit the Millenium period of Revelation well.
Therefore it seems to me the three questions the disciples asked could be seen as:

1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your coming to establish Isaiah's new earth?
3. When will John's new earth happen?

But there is a whole lot I don't know so I'm quietly listening with both ears.

peace

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hi Again.


Terral wrote:


Let's deal with this one first.
You say in one breath we don't know how they knew then in the next you say we know they understood. What makes you think they joined them together as one event? The text doesn't suggest that (unless there is something in the original Greek I don't know about).

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matt.24:3

There are actually three questions here.
1. When will these things be? (this is in reference to verse 2, the destruction of the temple.)
2. What will be the sign of your coming?
3. What will signify the end of the age?

Did the Jews see the coming of the Messiah at the end of the age? The teaching that I have had suggests they saw His coming as the end of Gentile rule and the establishment of Israel as the World Power on Earth for evermore.

Let me show what I have seen so far then you might better understand what I'm ignorant of.

Isaiah says (ch.65)
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.

And John says (Rev.21:1-4)
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2Then I, (v.3)John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

They both talk about a new heaven and new earth and although they sound similar, I see differences.
1. There still appears to be a national identity in Isaiah (v.22) but not in John. (v.3 ref. "God is with men")
2. The implication in Isaiah is that people will still die but at a very old age (v.20) whereas John says there is no more death.

So I have to wonder whether the new earth Isaiah sees is the same new earth John sees and whether they may in fact come into being at different times. Isaiah's earth seems to fit the Millenium period of Revelation well.
Therefore it seems to me the three questions the disciples asked could be seen as:

1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your coming to establish Isaiah's new earth?
3. When will John's new earth happen?

But there is a whole lot I don't know so I'm quietly listening with both ears.

peace

Exactly!! The new heavens and new earth in Isaiah are at the end of this AGE; the new heavens and new earth in rev. 21 happen at the end of the WORLD...

One still has death, one does not...

You're not crazy!!

 

[Terral]

Hi Sawdust:

You say in one breath we don't know how they knew then in the next you say we know they understood. What makes you think they joined them together as one event? The text doesn't suggest that (unless there is something in the original Greek I don't know about).

Words and phrases are joined together by what? Conjunctions. “And what will be the sign of Your coming AND the end of the age.” In the same breath I said that ‘we’ do not know how ‘they’ knew to join the two phrases together. However, we can tell by the way they asked the question that Christ had presented them some related information at an earlier time.

Sawdust’s quote >> "Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matt.24:3

Sawdust >> There are actually three questions here. 1. When will these things be? (this is in reference to verse 2, the destruction of the temple.) 2. What will be the sign of your coming? 3. What will signify the end of the age?

If these questions were asked in different chapters, or even separate sentences, then perhaps we separate ‘His coming’ Kai (And) ‘the end of the age.’ However, they are indeed contained in the same sentence. Your questions do not contain the word “And,” as if they are to be considered totally unrelated. That makes me believe that you have some reason behind the desire to separate what God has placed together. My interpretation does not require anything in Scripture to be forced at all. All of the bricks fit in mortared joints with no cracks; no daylight showing through.

Sawdust >> Did the Jews see the coming of the Messiah at the end of the age? The teaching that I have had suggests they saw His coming as the end of Gentile rule and the establishment of Israel as the World Power on Earth for evermore.

The problem with that interpretation is that the Disciples specifically asked about the sign of His coming AND the end of the age. You are attempting to confuse the ‘time of the Gentiles’ (Luke 21:24) with the entire Age. This time of the Gentiles does not even cover the time of this one Sabbath day (Gen. 2:4 – Rev. 20:15). Here is another problem: Will Elijah restore all things prior to or after the great and terrible day of the Lord? Answer: Before:

"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse." Mal. 4:5+6.

Christ is the One to reveal that Elijah will indeed come and restore all things. Matt. 17:11. Peter describes that day in 2Pet. 3:10. And odd note about Elijah (John the Baptist) is that he seems to get the raw end of the deal at every turn. When he came as John the Baptist, then he had to turn over the Spirit to Christ in the Jordan (Matt. 3:16). Then shortly afterwards, he proclaims, "He must increase, but I must decrease.” John 3:30. Then, when he finally does get to come and restore all things, then the heavens and earth are burned up, and we start fresh. Since he comes before the great and terrible day, and Christ says that he comes first (before Christ Himself), then the Great Tribulation and Final judgment must come after the restoration. If Christ said that Elijah is coming second to restore all things, then we could maybe place that as part of the new heavens and new earth. However, as Scripture is written, then all of Elijah’s work here on earth goes up in smoke.

Sawdust >> Let me show what I have seen so far then you might better understand what I'm ignorant of.


Sawdust compares Isaiah 65:17-25 to Rev. 21:1-4.

Sawdust commentary >> They both talk about a new heaven and new earth and although they sound similar, I see differences.
1. There still appears to be a national identity in Isaiah (v.22) but not in John. (v.3 ref. "God is with men")
2. The implication in Isaiah is that people will still die but at a very old age (v.20) whereas John says there is no more death.

Yes. And first allow me to thank you for recognizing the differences, and for bringing that to everyone’s attention. I am now standing at the place where you either get the short and sweet answer, or the one that will answer your questions that should follow . . . I am going to ask you to go read another post of mine here on this site, then return to these words:

Post on the Mystery >> http://www.christian-forums.com/t879067

You must take the time to actually use the diagrams in order to gain the visual ability to see the Mystery process at work. In each case the newly ‘begotten’ central aspect enlarges to engulf the other two (spirit and water) parts. A very small percentage of people will be able to understand what comes next, if they do not work through and actually draw the circles denoting the spheres of the different realms. If you have an understanding of the Mystery as a process, then I can continue: Draw your two overlapping circles and label them New Heavens (spirit), New Earth (water) and New Heaven (blood). New Jerusalem is the administration headquarters of this begotten realm; like Jerusalem is he capital of Israel.

Isaiah is standing upon the water semicircle (New Earth) and looking up into the descending New Jerusalem from above. There will continue to be death (separation of spirit and body) upon the New Earth, and everything that exists inside the diminishing domain of that water semicircle section (that water semicircle represents everything seen in this universe). Note carefully that as the central (blood) section enlarges, the water (New Earth) section becomes smaller (same for spirit section above). People will continue to be born upon the earth, according to a mirror image of the life processes we see in the world today. The difference being there will be heavenly hosts who are the sons of God (that’s us; Rom. 8:14, 19, etc.), instead of Satan’s forces of darkness (Eph. 6:12). Therefore the ‘predator/prey’ scenarios will cease to exist as we see them today. Instead of evil entering the heart of man from Satan, every living being will have the opportunity to serve the Creator out of a pure heart. Any evil that is found in man shall be sown there by man himself. When these people live a very long life, like Adam and Methuselah, etc., then they will be translated into the New Jerusalem domain. That is John’s view of the New Heavens and New Earth; from above.


Do you see the ‘descending’ (coming down) language in Rev. 21:1? That represents the enlarging central ‘blood’ section of our diagram that is also ‘ascending’ into the New Heavens at the very same time. The final result of the ‘ages of the ages’ is that the central blood section shall totally descend (and ascend) and swallow up the New Heavens and the New Earth. There is no death inside that growing central (blood) section where New Jerusalem is located. It is important to note that all the members of the body of Christ have an inheritance there, as we speak (Gal. 4:26). That is the ‘heavenly places’ in which we were seated at the moment of our salvation (Eph. 2:4-7 (6)). It is also important to note that New Jerusalem itself is also divided these three parts of spirit (body of Elijah), water (body of Moses) and blood (body of Christ). The ‘body of Christ’ is the center of the throne (Rev. 7:17) where we are members ‘inside’ the Lamb Himself. That is the ultimate position of security in the entire universe. Those who stand before the throne (water; bride) are being gradually swallowed up by the throne itself that is enlarging throughout eternity. That is the difference in being a member of the bride (works) and the body (grace). Israel shall continue to earn her way into the center of the throne through works, while the members of the body of Christ have a position there already. That is the “manifold wisdom” (Eph. 3:10) being manifested to the heavenly hosts through this grace church, according to His ‘purpose for the ages’ (Eph. 3:11). Once this feature of God’s magnificent plan is visualized completely, then it becomes much easier to see the Mystery process as a refined and purified multifaceted Jewel.

Sawdust >> So I have to wonder whether the new earth Isaiah sees is the same new earth John sees and whether they may in fact come into being at different times. Isaiah's earth seems to fit the Millenium period of Revelation well.

No sir. Isaiah and Revelation are describing the same event from different perspectives (Isaiah; water semicircle, Revelation; blood central section). Again, there is no death in New Jerusalem above, but there remains death upon the New Earth below. However, even that death is not to be associated with what was just thrown into the lake of fire with Satan (Rev. 20:14). That represents the separation that has existed since the Satanic Rebellion began. That is the source of the current division between the heavens and the earth. That is what was passed on through Adam to his entire race. That represents the enmity between men and God with which men are currently born into creation. That will be finished forever. Men today are born in desperate need of a Savior. In the New Earth, they will be born in fellowship with their Creator; big difference. There are dispensational truths, and eternal truths. When Paul said, “For the wages of sin is death,” then that represents an eternal truth. Beings inside of New Jerusalem are imperishable and immortal. Beings living upon the earth will still be mortal. That means one can certainly decide to murder the other. When that happens, then Our Lord reserves the right to separate his spirit from his body and bring him to judgment. Remember that the body of Christ judges the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3). That is an ongoing process to the end of the ages, until both of the spirit and water semicircles are completely summed up in Christ.

Sawdust >> Therefore it seems to me the three questions the disciples asked could be seen as: 1. When will the temple be destroyed?

Abomination of Desolation: At the end of the age. Matt. 24: 15.

Sawdust >> 2. What will be the sign of your coming to establish Isaiah's new earth?

Start of the new week/age. Rev. 21:1.

Sawdust >> 3. When will John's new earth happen?

Start of new week/age. Rev. 21:1.

In Christ already,

Terral

 

[sawdust]

To Terral

Thankyou for your patient responses. You have said some things the likes of which I have never heard before and I dare say the majority of Christendom would disagree with. (?) I only get a little time here and you have raised more questions than I have time to ask. Therefore I am going to end my discussion with you here.

Please to do not see this as a rejection of what you have said, it is simply my need to do a "Mary" and sit quietly and listen. After all we do have 2 ears, 1 mouth and right now I need to apply my ears and not my mouth. (that will come later so you are not off the hook yet)

I'm going to spend my time looking at your other posts to try and better understand what you are saying. I trust you understand.

peace

 

[sawdust]

edit: deleted due to double posting. silly me.

 

[Terral]

Hi Sawdust:

Thank you very much for writing, Sawdust.

Sawdust >> Thank you for your patient responses. You have said some things the likes of which I have never heard before and I dare say the majority of Christendom would disagree with. (?) I only get a little time here and you have raised more questions than I have time to ask. Therefore I am going to end my discussion with you here.

Well sir, if you want to disagree with me, then you must get in the back of a very long line. Many agree to disagree, but I wish one would bring supported statements to reveal any weakness in my positions. Defending our beliefs and interpretations helps us to better see the truth as God intends us to see it. Please allow me to quote my favorite verse of Text:

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Heb. 4:12.

Sawdust >> Please to do not see this as a rejection of what you have said, it is simply my need to do a "Mary" and sit quietly and listen. After all we do have 2 ears, 1 mouth and right now I need to apply my ears and not my mouth. (that will come later so you are not off the hook yet)

No problem whatsoever, Sawdust. We have been discussing God’s Prophetic Clock, and that is a pretty deep subject. Bringing questions is a good way to reveal weaknesses in areas of one's presentation. Please feel free to challenge me if anything seems off.

Sawdust >> I'm going to spend my time looking at your other posts to try and better understand what you are saying. I trust you understand.

Please do me a favor. When you see a brick out of place, or a crack in any wall, please bring that to everyone’s attention right away. That way I can go and correct anything that is errant from my work. We do not want to stand in front of Christ (2Cor. 5:10) with wood, hay and straw (1Cor. 3:12) << --- Like this.

Thanks again for writing,


In Christ,

Terral

 

[sawdust]

Well sir, if you want to disagree with me, then you must get in the back of a very long line. Many agree to disagree, but I wish one would bring supported statements to reveal any weakness in my positions. We have been discussing God’s Prophetic Clock, and that is a pretty deep subject. Bringing questions is a good way to reveal weaknesses in areas of one's presentation. Please feel free to challenge me if anything seems off.
When you see a brick out of place, or a crack in any wall, please bring that to everyone’s attention right away. That way I can go and correct anything that is errant from my work.

I'm back.

Just so you know.. whether I agree or disagree with you (and vice versa) is completely irrelevant in my book. Whether we both agree with God is the only worthwhile condition.
I doubt whether I am knowlegable enough to "challenge" you, ..... yet I am dust and that does have a way of "creeping into the cracks".

I have been putting in overtime on this thread and the things you have written and I keep finding more questions. So I will start with this one.

I have a problem with Elijah returning again.

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Heb.9:27

He could come back the first time as John the Baptist because he had never died. But John was beheaded and according to the verse above the next step is judgment. Now isn't this the very thing we see in the destruction of the Temple in 70AD? Yet this is still but a foretaste of the judgement to come. When the clock starts ticking again, shouldn't we see it begin with judgement? It is what I would expect and if we understand that John died at the end of the 69th week (or thereabouts) of Daniel's 70 weeks, does not the 70th week begin with the "prince who is to come"? (ie Antichrist) ... and does not the Judgement of God get poured out in that final week? (the tribulation)

Next. You said:

So we can go back into Daniel and see that Christ’s coming is after the regular sacrifice is abolished, and after that ‘prince’ (Dan. 9:26) cuts off the Messiah. That is the end of the Messianic Kingdom, Sawdust, and Christ still has not returned. How on earth can He possibly return at the beginning and sit on David’s throne? Who is this ‘prince’ that he can come and cut off Jesus Christ? That is impossible, and an erroneous interpretation.

The scripture does not say the "prince" will cut off the Messiah. It simply states the Messiah is "cut off". (and I might add "not for Himself")

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined." Dan.9:26

Now one might wonder how it is the Messiah could be "cut off" but let me suggest this verse:

"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." John 10:15

(there is also another verse that speaks of Christ's death as being the will of the Father...but I cannot find it.)

It is not the end of the Messianic Kingdom for it is still yet to begin upon earth. Christ came the first time to set it up.

Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” John 18:37

Let me ask you a question. When is a King a King? At the beginning of his reign or the end after another has established the Kingdom? For it seems to me this is what you are implying. That Elijah will set up the Kingdom on Earth and Christ will come to reign at it's end.

There is still a great deal more I wish to query with you but I think this is enough for both of us at the moment.

peace

 

[Terral]

Hi Sawdust:

Sawdust >> I'm back.

And I am pleased you have returned.

Sawdust >> Just so you know.. whether I agree or disagree with you (and vice versa) is completely irrelevant in my book. Whether we both agree with God is the only worthwhile condition. I doubt whether I am knowlegable enough to "challenge" you, ..... yet I am dust and that does have a way of "creeping into the cracks". I have been putting in overtime on this thread and the things you have written and I keep finding more questions. So I will start with this one.
I have a problem with Elijah returning again. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Heb.9:27

Do you have a problem believing the words of our Lord Jesus Christ that pertain to Elijah coming back? Read His words again:

“And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist." Matt. 17:10 – 13.

I know what you are thinking, Sawdust: “Why did this guy just quote me the obvious?” I did that to better inform you of where Christ’s feet are when He made that statement. At this very spot in Scripture, is John the Baptist living or already dead?

“He sent and had John beheaded in the prison. And his head was brought on a platter and given to the girl, and she brought it to her mother. His disciples came and took away the body and buried it; and they went and reported to Jesus.” Matt. 14:10.

Once again, I know what you are thinking . . . Either Christ is lying there about John being Elijah, or something is wrong with Hebrews 9:27. Am I close? I will assure you that both Hebrews and Christ are 100 percent correct. Have you noted my hints about this above?

From above Terral Original >> This Elijah/John the Baptist character is the most extraordinary person in Scripture (not counting our Lord Jesus Christ; of course). His true identity when realized is something really amazing indeed. List all of Christ’s clues and see if you can solve the riddles.).

John the Baptist claimed not to be Elijah (John 1:21), and Christ said He was Elijah more than once (Matt. 11:14, 17:11-13). Who is right? The answer is that they are both right. And again, I have a good idea of what you are thinking . . . that it is impossible for both Christ and John the Baptist to be right, when they both are saying the opposite things. John the Baptist is the witness of Spirit that bore witness of the Son (John 1:34), and Christ bore witness of John also. Again, He gives many hints about John’s true identity. One must place them all in a line and solve the riddles. If you come and ask any question about this, then I will answer truthfully. However, I will not reveal the answer. In your search, our Father in heaven will testify concerning His witness, and reveal the answer that solves all the seeming contradictions.

Sawdust >> The scripture does not say the "prince" will cut off the Messiah. It simply states the Messiah is "cut off". (and I might add "not for Himself")

A better translation >> "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.” Dan. 9:26.

Your translation kind of threw you. If the Messiah is our Lord Jesus Christ, then He is not going anywhere. Would our Lord allow this antichrist character to come into His kingdom and allow this to happen? No. Christ does not even appear, until the end of the age. Matt. 24:3. After that is the judgment, and the beast goes into the fire. Rev. 19:20.

[size=+0]Sawdust >> Now one might wonder how it is the Messiah could be "cut off" but let me suggest this verse:

"As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." John 10:15

Christ already did that. Christ tied His return to Daniel’s specific comments about the ‘abomination of desolation’ in Matthew 24:15. We cannot spiritualize Christ dying again for sins at the end of the age, when you know the verses that say He died once for all. Heb. 7:27, 9:12, 10:10.

Sawdust >> (there is also another verse that speaks of Christ's death as being the will of the Father...but I cannot find it.)

Here it is, but the argument above rules out your hypothesis

" . . . who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.” Gal. 1:4.

Sawdust >> It is not the end of the Messianic Kingdom for it is still yet to begin upon earth. Christ came the first time to set it up.

You lost me here; please clarify. It? Is not the end? The end of the age is still when Christ is coming. Matt. 24:3. The gathering of the elect occurs in Matt. 24:31. There is not much time to set up the kingdom in such a short period. By that time, the kingdom has been on earth for the 1000 years prior to His coming. That is how long it will take for Elijah to prepare the bride and restore all things. Matt. 17:11. If your reference is to Daniel and that Messiah not being the end, then that theory also has many holes. After all, Christ said that the ‘abomination of desolation’ is tied to the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3, 15, 31.

Terral adds verse 36 >> Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." John 18:36+37.

Sawdust >> Let me ask you a question. When is a King a King? At the beginning of his reign or the end after another has established the Kingdom? For it seems to me this is what you are implying. That Elijah will set up the Kingdom on Earth and Christ will come to reign at its end.

Christ came and made the offering at Calvary to redeem Creation from the curse of darkness, and all who would hear and believe the good news. Christ will finish interceding for the saints (Rom. 8:34) at the instant we are caught up to meet Him. 1Thes. 4:17. Satan is chained with all of his rulers of darkness, and we are prepared to sit in those heavenly places. The Spirit returns down to Elijah to baptize all Israel, and off they go across the Jordan River as on dry land. Christ rules from heaven at the same time that David rules from the earth (Eze. 37:23-25). At the end, the antichrist incarnates like Christ did 2000 years ago on the earth. The world rejected Christ, but the world will fall madly in love with the antichrist; at least many will. They will believe that he is the ‘Savior’ of this planet. David will be cut off and have nothing. The regular sacrifice is stopped, and the beast changes times and laws. Dan. 7:25. I believe he will take the world back to 13 months, like Old Israel. He will magnify himself above everything; even God. Dan. 11:36. Anyway, when Christ comes, then his party is over (2Thes. 2:8).

Thank you for writing, Sawdust. Please try and figure out the John the Baptist/Elijah riddles. If someone tells you the answer, then you would believe them to be nuts. God has to show you. There is only one answer that solves the puzzle and resolves all the seeming contradictions.

In Christ,

Terral

[/size]

 

[In Christ Forever]

Your translation kind of threw you. If the Messiah is our Lord Jesus Christ, then He is not going anywhere. Would our Lord allow this antichrist character to come into His kingdom and allow this to happen? No. Christ does not even appear, until the end of the age. Matt. 24:3. After that is the judgment, and the beast goes into the fire. Rev. 19:20.

No, but it appears that God can let it happen:

reve 17:17 "For God has put it into their hearts[beast of the sea] to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman[beast of the earth] whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

There is not much time to set up the kingdom in such a short period. By that time, the kingdom has been on earth for the 1000 years prior to His coming. That is how long it will take for Elijah to prepare the bride and restore all things. Matt. 17:11. If your reference is to Daniel and that Messiah not being the end, then that theory also has many holes. After all, Christ said that the ‘abomination of desolation’ is tied to the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3, 15, 31.

Hi Terrel. So during what period of Paul's endtime passage here does Elijah return

21 For since by man [came] death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits,

afterward those [who are] Christ's at His coming. 24

Then [comes] the end,

when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy [that] will be destroyed [is] death.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

 

[@@Paul@@]

21 For since by man [came] death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits,

afterward those [who are] Christ's at His coming. 24

Then [comes] the end,

Sometime "afterward", before His coming.

 

[Terral]

Hi InChrist:

Terral Original to Sawdust >> Your translation kind of threw you. If the Messiah is our Lord Jesus Christ, then He is not going anywhere. Would our Lord allow this antichrist character to come into His kingdom and allow this to happen? No. Christ does not even appear, until the end of the age. Matt. 24:3. After that is the judgment, and the beast goes into the fire. Rev. 19:20.

InChrist >> No, but it appears that God can let it happen:
InChrist’s Quote >> reve 17:17"For God has put it into their hearts[beast of the sea] to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman[beast of the earth] whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Revelation is describing events that transpire on the earth, and before the end of the age. Christ Himself says that His coming is after the events of the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15), and that tied to Matt. 24:30. The cutting off of the Messiah (Dan. 9:26) in Daniel must occur just prior to the time of Matthew 24:15, and before Christ’s coming. After all, the ‘abomination of desolation’ language appears in Dan. 11:31 and 12:11. Therefore, it is impossible for the Messiah of Daniel 9:26 to be our Lord Jesus Christ, because He enters the stage after those things have already transpired.

Terral Original above >> There is not much time to set up the kingdom in such a short period. By that time, the kingdom has been on earth for the 1000 years prior to His coming. That is how long it will take for Elijah to prepare the bride and restore all things.Matt. 17:11. If your reference is to Daniel and that Messiah not being the end, then that theory also has many holes. After all, Christ said that the ‘abomination of desolation’ is tied to the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3, 15, 31.

InChrist asks >> So during what period of Paul's endtime passage here does Elijah return?”

Nothing in the Pauline Epistles make a single reference to Elijah. He is the man of Prophecy, while Paul’s Gentile Epistles represent the ‘revelation of the Mystery.’ The Holy Spirit will return to Elijah just after we are delivered up to the Lord in 1Thes. 4:17. The type is Christ ascending (Acts 2:1) then the Holy Spirit returning to the Twelve (Acts 2:1) on the Day of Pentecost. We are caught up in 1Thes. 4:17. Then the Spirit returns and begins again to fulfill Prophecy.

In Christ >> Christ the firstfruits

We are baptized into Christ and into His death (Rom. 6:3+4) we have been seated in the heavenly places already (Eph. 2:4-7 (6)). The members of the ‘body of Christ’ ascended when He did, according to their ‘state’ as sons of God (Rom. 8:14, 19). We are ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17) when this ‘time of the Gentiles’ is complete.

In Christ >> afterward those [who are] Christ's at His coming.”

Did Paul say ‘we’ who are Christ’s or ‘those’ who are Christ’s? That is a reference to the ‘elect’ of Matt. 24:31 who are gathered at the end of the age. If ‘we’ were part of the end time gathering of Matthew 24, then this was Paul’s chance to say so. Our lives are hidden with Christ in God at this very moment. Col. 3:1-4.

“For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory*.” Col. 3:3+4.

When is Christ going to be ‘revealed?’ We cannot be part of the final gathering at the end of the age, (Matt. 24:3) because we are seen by Scripture, as coming back with Him in glory.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory*.” Matt. 24:29+30.

In Christ,

Terral

 

[sawdust]

I know what you are thinking, Sawdust: “Why did this guy just quote me the obvious?”

Nope didn't think that.

Once again, I know what you are thinking . . . Either Christ is lying there about John being Elijah, or something is wrong with Hebrews 9:27. Am I close?

Nope, way off.

I have a good idea of what you are thinking . . . that it is impossible for both Christ and John the Baptist to be right, when they both are saying the opposite things.

Wrong again.... strike out!

Your mission sir, should you wish to accept it, is to understand you do not know what or how I think.

But I would not have you ignorant my friend, so I will tell you what I think in the above circumstances. When I see something in the scripture, I believe what is written. When I see two things that seem to say the opposite, I think "what am I missing". For I know there will always be an answer to the apparent riddle. My basic premise in all things is "Christ (the Word) is right and I am wrong. Therefore I am the one who needs to change.
If you wish to know a little more about me go here:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1944367&postcount=1
(hopefully that link will work)

Now back on topic.

I'm completely lost and I note:

You lost me here; please clarify.

It might be that you think I'm thinking things that I'm not and I'm not understanding what you're saying until I work out this Elijah riddle.

So... as much as I love riddles, I have to be honest, I'm useless at working them out. If you are prepared to give me all the verses I need then I will lay them out before my Father and I will question Him regarding them. And, as you say, He will show me or He won't. But right now the things you are saying
are just confusing me. I don't know what more to do than this. I ask, I seek, I knock....and if I could draw a little cartoon here it would be one of me knocking on your head asking to come in.

So Mr Terral, I'm not afraid to get "down and dirty" (so to speak) if you have the courage to return and "batter up" after your "strike out".

peace

 

[@@Paul@@]

Please try and figure out the John the Baptist/Elijah riddles. If someone tells you the answer, then you would believe them to be nuts. God has to show you. There is only one answer that solves the puzzle and resolves all the seeming contradictions.

In Christ,

Terral

[/size][/font]

And I was told I made mountains out of mole hills...

If Christ's coming was two fold in application; isn't it possible so was the prophesy of the John the Baptist/Elijah?

Luk 1:17 And he (John the Baptist) shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.​

Mal 4:5-6 KJV
(5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
(6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​

Mat 11:13-14 KJV
(13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
(14) And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.​

If Israel would have recieved Christ, John the Baptist would have counted as Elias. Of course we know now that Christ's first coming was to die. i.e. it was not the "great and dreadful day of the LORD".

 

[sawdust]

To Terral

I have come to an answer regarding the riddle of Elijah but it sounds weird and I don't know if it's helpful which means it's most probably wrong.
So was I meant to keep this a secret or something or can I post my thinking publicly? Not that I'm sure I want to because they might ban me or something.

peace

btw .. you need to go back into your post to me and correct your references to Matthew ch 11 & 17 not John as you state. John 11 is about Lazarus, for a sec I thought you really were off the planet.

 

[Terral]

Hi Sawdust:

Sawdust >> So... as much as I love riddles, I have to be honest, I'm useless at working them out. If you are prepared to give me all the verses I need then I will lay them out before my Father and I will question Him regarding them. And, as you say, He will show me or He won't.

I have this thick skin like armor, and when folks get mean and nasty, it means nothing. However, I feel bad when confusing somebody who wants to see something. For years I sat and answered questions on a Biblical Contradictions Forum. So this kind of thing came up often. I fixed that John 11:14 error. Thanks. When Christ says that John the Baptist is Elijah (Matt. 11:14), and John says he is not (John 1:21), then that is a sign that there is something going on.

John the Baptist is the ‘messenger’ of the OT (Mal. 3:1) and NT (Matt. 11:10). Do your study of the Hebrew and Greek, and understand the words. He is talked about in Isa. 40:3 and the verses around it; like in Malachi above and Mal. 4:5+ 6. Note the ‘glory’ of Isa. 40:5 that is to be revealed. That is the word associated with the Spirit of the Temple. Ex. 29:43, 33:18, 40:34, etc.. A good study is to follow the Spirit from Gen. 1:2 all the way to Rev. 22:17. Melchizedek (Gen. 14:18) is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit on earth. That is the Spirit of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle of Moses, and the Temple. Follow it . . . until Zacharias, John, Christ, Pentecost, Steven, Paul, us today (1Cor. 6:19). That is the source of Elijah’s power (Luke 1:15+17). John is the son of a priest, and Christ says he is a prophet.

Matt 11:7 ¶ As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?

Guess how many verses in the OT contain the words reed and wind? Exactly one. Hosea 13:15. The Lord God is here in the NT watching as the people do with His messenger and Himself whatever they wish.

“I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath. The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; His sin is stored up. The pains of childbirth come upon him; He is not a wise son, For it is not the time that he should delay at the opening of the womb. Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from death? O Death, where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion will be hidden from My sight. Though he flourishes among the reeds, an east wind will come, The wind of the LORD coming up from the wilderness; And his fountain will become dry And his spring will be dried up; It will plunder his treasury of every precious article.” Hosea 13:11-15.

Christ again gives context to God’s intentions of leveling Jerusalem over their rejection of what He was giving them.

"But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings' palaces!” Matt. 11:8.

John the Baptist was not just a prophet, but ‘the’ anticipated prophet (Malachi 4:5+6), as Elijah. Matt. 11:14. Who were they going out to see? Christ’s words about kings palaces appear meaningless, until compared to the context of Hosea above. Remember again that His gospel was called the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Matt. 4:23, 9:35. Thus far we know he is descended from a priest, and is also ‘the’ prophet. Christ appears to be intimating that he is also a king that, He Himself has offered Israel.

Matt 11:9 "But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet.

The three main figures of the Kingdom of Israel are the prophet, who goes in and out, the priest who stands and intercedes for the people, and the king who sits on the throne and judges. Christ Himself is a Prophet, Priest and King in the heavenly sense. Christ says that His kingdom is not of this world, or even of this realm. John 18:36. When the kingdom came, who would sit on the throne here on earth?

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” Matt. 11:11.

Nobody born of woman . . . is greater than John. That ‘born’ aspect is left out of the heaven side of the verse. Christ is drawing a comparison. Our job is to determine the context of greater and less. In other words, what would someone have to do in order to be ‘greater’ than John? Or is that even possible? If not, then why?

"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.” Matt. 11:12.

John the Baptist and Christ were born months apart. Did the kingdom of heaven just begin suffering violence 30 years prior to Him making this statement? When did heaven begin suffering violence?

Matt 11:13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Matt 11:14 "And if you are willing to accept, John himself is Elijah who is to come.

Matt 11:15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

The ‘ear’ Christ is talking about is not literal. He who has understanding has an ear for His sayings.

Matt 11:18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'

Matt 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

What role can wisdom play in vindicating John?

Matt 14:10 He sent and had John beheaded in the prison.


Matt 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

Matt 17:11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore All things;

Christ prophesies that he is coming again to restore all things. Restore what? And what is in the mind of the Son of God when He says ALL things? That certainly must be more than mere men like us can imagine. Or does it have something that started way back in Genesis? Or Prophecy? We know that he comes before Christ comes. Again, Christ ties His own coming to the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3. A clue is given us in Acts 3:

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.' For you first, God raised up His servant and sent him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:19-26.

Heaven must receive Christ until the period of restoration of all things. This prophet must be the same Elijah of the OT (Mal. 4:5+6), and NT (Luke 1:17, Matt. 11:14). He is a prophet, priest and a king all rolled into one. Who is he?

In Christ,

Terral

 

[@@Paul@@]

He is a prophet, priest and a king all rolled into one. Who is he?[/font][/size]

In Christ,

Terral

[/size][/font]

Please do not say David...

There is only one Prophet, Priest & King.... Christ Jesus.

But i am interested to here the rest of your story.

 

[sawdust]

Hi Sawdust:

I have this thick skin like armor, and when folks get mean and nasty, it means nothing. However, I feel bad when confusing somebody who wants to see something. For years I sat and answered questions on a Biblical Contradictions Forum. So this kind of thing came up often. I fixed that John 11:14 error. Thanks. When Christ says that John the Baptist is Elijah (Matt. 11:14), and John says he is not (John 1:21), then that is a sign that there is something going on.

John the Baptist is the ‘messenger’ of the OT (Mal. 3:1) and NT (Matt. 11:10). Do your study of the Hebrew and Greek, and understand the words. He is talked about in Isa. 40:3 and the verses around it; like in Malachi above and Mal. 4:5+ 6. Note the ‘glory’ of Isa. 40:5 that is to be revealed. That is the word associated with the Spirit of the Temple. Ex. 29:43, 33:18, 40:34, etc.. A good study is to follow the Spirit from Gen. 1:2 all the way to Rev. 22:17. Melchizedek (Gen. 14:18) is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit on earth. That is the Spirit of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle of Moses, and the Temple. Follow it . . . until Zacharias, John, Christ, Pentecost, Steven, Paul, us today (1Cor. 6:19). That is the source of Elijah’s power (Luke 1:15+17). John is the son of a priest, and Christ says he is a prophet.

Guess how many verses in the OT contain the words reed and wind? Exactly one. Hosea 13:15. The Lord God is here in the NT watching as the people do with His messenger and Himself whatever they wish.

Christ again gives context to God’s intentions of leveling Jerusalem over their rejection of what He was giving them.

John the Baptist was not just a prophet, but ‘the’ anticipated prophet (Malachi 4:5+6), as Elijah. Matt. 11:14. Who were they going out to see? Christ’s words about kings palaces appear meaningless, until compared to the context of Hosea above. Remember again that His gospel was called the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Matt. 4:23, 9:35. Thus far we know he is descended from a priest, and is also ‘the’ prophet. Christ appears to be intimating that he is also a king that, He Himself has offered Israel.

The three main figures of the Kingdom of Israel are the prophet, who goes in and out, the priest who stands and intercedes for the people, and the king who sits on the throne and judges. Christ Himself is a Prophet, Priest and King in the heavenly sense. Christ says that His kingdom is not of this world, or even of this realm. John 18:36. When the kingdom came, who would sit on the throne here on earth?

Nobody born of woman . . . is greater than John. That ‘born’ aspect is left out of the heaven side of the verse. Christ is drawing a comparison. Our job is to determine the context of greater and less. In other words, what would someone have to do in order to be ‘greater’ than John? Or is that even possible? If not, then why?


John the Baptist and Christ were born months apart. Did the kingdom of heaven just begin suffering violence 30 years prior to Him making this statement? When did heaven begin suffering violence?

The ‘ear’ Christ is talking about is not literal. He who has understanding has an ear for His sayings.
[/font][/size]
What role can wisdom play in vindicating John?
[/font][/size]
Christ prophesies that he is coming again to restore all things. Restore what? And what is in the mind of the Son of God when He says ALL things? That certainly must be more than mere men like us can imagine. Or does it have something that started way back in Genesis? Or Prophecy? We know that he comes before Christ comes. Again, Christ ties His own coming to the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3. A clue is given us in Acts 3:

Heaven must receive Christ until the period of restoration of all things. This prophet must be the same Elijah of the OT (Mal. 4:5+6), and NT (Luke 1:17, Matt. 11:14). He is a prophet, priest and a king all rolled into one. Who is he?

In Christ,

Terral

[/size][/font]

I know now why you are a brickie....for I feel as thick as two bricks in your hands. I don't say that to offend you, just stating what is for me at this time.

Is everyone you ask this question of as dense as I am?
Is anyone else reading these posts getting the answer to this riddle?

All due respect, but for the last 10 years I have been helping my husband run two business and for the 10 years prior to that, I was raising three children. I don't get the luxury of spending hour after hour, day after day in study. (I wish I could devote all my time to studying the Word) It could take me years to complete the study necessary to find this answer. This is why God appointed teachers in the Church to help His body learn and understand and come to the full knowledge of Him. However I also appreciate that sometimes things need to be delivered in "riddles" like Jesus did with telling parables but He also would take His disciples aside and speak plain to them and explain their meaning.



I don't know what more to say. I shan't give up, so don't think your words wasted, but know that I can't seem to see what you are saying no matter how hard I try. (at least not seeing straight away, maybe way down the track sometime. there is always hope! )

peace

ps. don't feel bad over my confusion, sometimes these things are necessary

 

[In Christ Forever]

Melchizedek (Gen. 14:18) is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit on earth. That is the Spirit of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle of Moses, and the Temple. Follow it . . . until Zacharias, John, Christ, Pentecost, Steven, Paul, us today (1Cor. 6:19). That is the source of Elijah’s power (Luke 1:15+17). John is the son of a priest, and Christ says he is a prophet.

All the great prophets can be summed up in one Word, SPIRIT. God's spirit was in all of them, names were just "titles", and from Pentecost till today, those in Christ have the same Spirit they had. Only God Himself could give them the power they had, including Elijah, Moses, and Elisha.

Guess who God is talking about as "O great Mountain"
zech 4: 5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 6 So he answered and said to me: "This [is] the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts. 7 'Who [are] you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel [you shall become] a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "

Daniel 8:23 " And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes. 24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and [also] the holy people.

ezekiel 31:17 'They also went down to hell with it, with those [slain] by the sword; and [those who were] its [strong] arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations. 18 'To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with [those] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude,' says the Lord GOD."

matt 11:22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."