God's Prophetic Clock...

[Terral]

Hi Paul >>

Paul >> I do not believe there is ONE age from creation until it's destruction... AND I’m not sure how I’m going to explain it to someone who sees otherwise… I see at least 3 ages...

My post up above is doctrinally sound in that it contains supported statements that this age has a beginning in Gen. 1:2 and ending in Rev. 20:15. Your job, should you decide to accept it, is to show the errors in my presentation. After all, if I am off, then hey . . . sorry about that, but someone has to show me using the same kind of supported statements I presented. Since both Christ and Paul use the phrases “either in this age or in the age to come (Matt. 12:32) and “not only in this age but also in the one to come (Eph. 1:21), ” then I would say your task is pretty difficult. The reason is that the same ‘darkness / evil / Satanic / rulers / wicked forces / ‘spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly’ (Eph. 6:12) are still in place throughout this ‘evil age.’ Therefore, by the true Greek definition of the term (aion) from 2000 years ago, these characteristics must change for a new ‘age’ to come in. I do not believe you can present a case that can overcome that hurdle created by the true definition of the term. Thus, my case is pretty sound above.

Paul’s Outline >> 1) Creation > Flood …….. represents the world that WAS 2) Flood > Millennium …….. the world that IS 3) Millennium > end of this WORLD. …….. The world as it should BE

Paul’s question >> Any suggestions?

Try to find Scriptural support that one ‘age’ changed to the next. Otherwise, you are looking at events that transpire within the seven days of this ‘evil age.’ Gal. 1:4.

God bless,

Terral

 

[Tractor1]

In (Heb. 1:1-2) a contrast is drawn between "time past" when God spoke to the fathers in the prophets and "these last days" when He is speaking to us in His Son. In like manner, it's clearly disclosed that there are ages past (Eph. 3:5; Col. 1:26), the present age (Rom. 12:2; Gal. 1:4), and the age, or ages, to come (Eph. 2:7; Heb. 6:5), note (Eph. 1:10), where the future age is termed the administration of the fulness of times.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[@@Paul@@]

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:​

Wouldn't that be another "age"?

 

[In Christ Forever]

Paul’s Outline >> 1) Creation > Flood …….. represents the world that WAS 2) Flood > Millennium …….. the world that IS 3) Millennium > end of this WORLD. …….. The world as it should BE
Paul’s question >> Any suggestions?

What is interesting about this, is 150 days is only mentioned these 2 places in the bible, revelation and Noah's flood .
Chapt 11 shows the Holy City being "trampled" 42 months. Chapt 6 appears to be a "city" itself being sieged for only 5 months. That leaves 37 months of wraths elsewhere.
Just thought I would bring this up for "interest".

gen 7:12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. 24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

This appears to be a seige on a "city" causing extreme famine. Just the way I viewed it.


reve 9:5 And they were not given [authority] to kill them, but to torment them [for] five months. Their torment [was] like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

 

[@@Paul@@]

What does that have to do with this post??


I suppose God likes to do some things for 150 days..

 

[In Christ Forever]

What does that have to do with this post??
I suppose God likes to do some things for 150 days..

I thought that might "interest" you. The prophetic clock must end after the 150 days of the "flood", the siege of a city. Any idea what happened to the other "37 months" of the 42 months the gentiles are suppose to "trample" on the Holy City

I just noticed the difference between the 5 months and 42 months the other day. Interesting.

reve 11:2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

gen 7:12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. 24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

reve 9:5 And they were not given [authority] to kill them, but to torment them [for] five months. Their torment [was] like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

jeremi 46:7 "Who [is] this coming up like a flood, Whose waters move like the rivers? 8 Egypt rises up like a flood, And [its] waters move like the rivers; And he says, 'I will go up [and] cover the earth, I will destroy the city and its inhabitants.' 9 Come up, O horses, and rage, O chariots! And let the mighty men come forth: The Ethiopians and the Libyans who handle the shield, And the Lydians who handle [and] bend the bow.

Jeremi 47: 2 Thus says the LORD: "Behold, waters rise out of the north, And shall be an overflowing flood; They shall overflow the land and all that is in it, The city and those who dwell within; Then the men shall cry, And all the inhabitants of the land shall wail. 3 At the noise of the stamping hooves of his strong horses, At the rushing of his chariots, [At] the rumbling of his wheels, The fathers will not look back for [their] children, Lacking courage,

 

[FreeinChrist]

I thought that might "interest" you. The prophetic clock must end after the 150 days of the "flood", the siege of a city. Any idea what happened to the other "37 months" of the 42 months the gentiles are suppose to "trample" on the Holy City

I just noticed the difference between the 5 months and 42 months the other day. Interesting.

There is no relation to the 150 days of the flood, and the 42 months of the Antichrist.

150 days = 5 months of 30 days.
42 months = 3 1/2 years or 1260 days


You aren't associating numbers in a manner that fits scripture. In the 1st woe, the pain of the bites last 5 months, but that is not the city being seiged.

Look over the OP again.

 

[sawdust]

Guess what? Christ cannot return, until the prophetic words of the OT prophets are fulfilled regarding the period of restoration of ALL things. Please take a minute, and sit back in your chairs, and realize exactly what this statement implies . . . The kingdom must be restored to [/font]Israel first, before Christ can return. That includes the entire Promised Land all the way to the EuphratesRiver (Gen. 15:18).

Well I sat back in my chair and took more than one minute to look at the verse you presented ... ...and I don't see it as saying that Christ must wait till the end of the "time of restoration" before He returns. Let me just put the verse up again.

"whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."
Acts 3:21

That verse simply states Christ must wait in heaven till the "times of restoration". It does not state whether it is to be a waiting till the end of those times or the beginning of those times, or somewhere in between. I think to therefore say Christ must wait till the end is adding more to the Word than what is stated.

I found what you said regarding "ages" interesting. I'm going to have a closer look over the weekend. I have printed out your postings (hope you don't mind). Can't guarantee I will get back to you with any "startling revelation".

peace

 

[In Christ Forever]

There is no relation to the 150 days of the flood, and the 42 months of the Antichrist.

150 days = 5 months of 30 days.
42 months = 3 1/2 years or 1260 days


You aren't associating numbers in a manner that fits scripture. In the 1st woe, the pain of the bites last 5 months, but that is not the city being seiged.

Look over the OP again.

Who said it was the antichrist? It is an army come up out of the abyss, not an antichrist!!!!! The beast out of the sea is the "gentiles" making war on the Harlot and saints I believe. So what is the 5 months representing!

revel 11:2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

reve 13:Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like [the feet of] a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And [I saw] one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who [is] like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

reve 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given [authority] to kill them, but to torment them [for] five months. Their torment [was] like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

gen 7:12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. 24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

 

[Terral]

Hi Tracy:

Tracy >> In (Heb. 1:1-2) a contrast is drawn between "time past" when God spoke to the fathers in the prophets and "these last days" when He is speaking to us in His Son.

That translation is letting you down, Tracy. You might try the New American Standard Bible. I use that and a Nelson’s Interlinear to sort out the liberties the Lockman guys took with their translation. That is not an ‘age’ in ‘time past,’ but just ‘long ago.’

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.” Heb. 1:1+2.

Tracy >> In like manner, it's clearly disclosed that there are ages past (Eph. 3:5; Col. 1:26),.

Your ‘ages past’ in Eph. 3:5 is other or past ‘generations.’

“Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit.” Eph. 3:5.

Yes, your aion is in the plural there, but we know there have been infinite ages in the past. God has been in the Creator business for eternity. The question is over how much of that is included in our Bible. Since darkness is in force in Gen. 1:2, and is still in power in Eph. 6:12, then we appear to be in the same Age. I see six days in Gen. 1, and the seventh starting in Gen. 2:4. Everything since then has pertained to the Adamic Race and now Israel. The New Age begins when the heavens and earth get a makeover, Tracy. Rev. 21:1. That is when the rulers of this Evil age get their’s (Rev. 20:10-15) and we start fresh.

“the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints.” Col. 1:26.

Tracy >> the present age (Rom. 12:2; Gal. 1:4), and the age, or ages, to come (Eph. 2:7; Heb. 6:5),

Again, we expect God to stay in the Creator business for Eternity. He is a very patient Fellow, you know. The fact that there are a myriad of ages to come does not prove that we have experienced an Age change since Gen. 1:2. That is what you are looking for my friend. If you can find it, then you will teach me something.

Tracy >> note (Eph. 1:10), where the future age is termed the administration of the fulness of times

No sir. That administration of the fullness of times is the administration through which the heavens and earth again become One. We know the name of that Administration as our mother; New Jerusalem. Gal. 4:26. That is about the summing up of all things in both realms into a single unified expression of God’s love, light and life. There are no angels ‘in Christ,’ and no men; male or female. We have imperishable bodies that transcend both realms with power and glory not seen in this Age. The best stuff lies ahead.

God bless,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Sawdust

Do not get any of that on me now. I’m a bricklayer.

Sawdust >> Well I sat back in my chair and took more than one minute to look at the verse you presented ... ...and I don't see it as saying that Christ must wait till the end of the "time of restoration" before He returns. Let me just put the verse up again.

"whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."
Acts 3:21

Sawdust commentary >> That verse simply states Christ must wait in heaven till the "times of restoration". It does not state whether it is to be a waiting till the end of those times or the beginning of those times, or somewhere in between. I think to therefore say Christ must wait till the end is adding more to the Word than what is stated.

Do you see that word ‘times’ there Sawdust? It is 'kairos,' and it is plural here, as in multiple. Christ is not just waiting for ‘a time’ to arrive, but ‘times’ of restoration.’ Do you know why heaven must receive Him? What did He tell the Disciples?

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” John 16:7.

That is the same Spirit of the Holy of Holies that John the Baptist passed to Christ in the Jordan; the same Holy Spirit Christ sent down from heaven at Pentecost; the same Spirit that is now working in the body of Christ; and the same source of the power of Elijah for the coming restoration ‘times.’ His work must be finished and return to Christ, then Christ can come. I read Acts 3:21 in this context:

1. “And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things.” Matt. 17:10+11.

If Christ would have said that Elijah was coming to restore somethings, then I will be along, then I would read the words of Acts 3:21 differently. All means a hellofabunch restoring to me.

2. As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matt. 24:3.

Christ had obviously told the Disciples that He was coming at the ‘end’ of the age. What does end mean to you? We get a new heavens and earth in Rev. 21:1. That is kind of late for Him to be thinking about sitting on any throne in Jerusalem on this earth. Why restore all things at the very end, just to have a new heavens and new earth? No. If this prophet (Elijah) is coming for this restoration of all things, and Christ stays in heaven to the end of the age, then I have no trouble figuring out that heaven is going to receive Christ until the restoration period is complete.


3. Also, I am reminded of the very first question the Disciples asked, after the crucifixion in Acts.

“So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" Acts 1:6.

“He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.” Acts 1:7.

4. Who sent Elijah (John the Baptist) the last trip?

“There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.” John 1:6.

God is going to send Elijah again, according to the times and epochs fixed by God’s own authority. The Disciples knew to ask if this was the time of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, because that must have been Christ’s lesson to them during the past 3 years. Therefore, I conclude that the restoration process is about Israel and her kingdom, and that just happens to be what the prophets of old have spoken. And still, when I add it all together, Christ still remains in heaven until the end of the Age.

God bless,

Terral

 

[FreeinChrist]

Who said it was the antichrist? It is an army come up out of the abyss, not an antichrist!!!!! The beast out of the sea is the "gentiles" making war on the Harlot and saints I believe. So what is the 5 months representing!
revel 11:2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

The 42 months of the antichrist is the 42 months that the first beast is given power by the dragon.

Now this is off topic from the OP, so I will not address this issue here any longer.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Well I sat back in my chair and took more than one minute to look at the verse you presented ... ...and I don't see it as saying that Christ must wait till the end of the "time of restoration" before He returns. Let me just put the verse up again.

"whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."
Acts 3:21

That verse simply states Christ must wait in heaven till the "times of restoration". It does not state whether it is to be a waiting till the end of those times or the beginning of those times, or somewhere in between. I think to therefore say Christ must wait till the end is adding more to the Word than what is stated.

I found what you said regarding "ages" interesting. I'm going to have a closer look over the weekend. I have printed out your postings (hope you don't mind). Can't guarantee I will get back to you with any "startling revelation".

peace

That's exactly right sawdust!!

The "times of restitution" is not a period of times OR even of a time... it is THE time when the Kingdom is restored – here’s a study I did a few weeks ago.

I do not believe it’s fair to call it a process of restoration. But it refers to a time when things will be restored. That restoration is simply speaking of the restoration OF the kingdom, and not the kingdom period itself.

It was this that made me stand up and take notice….

The word “apokatastosis” is directly related to “apokatheistem”, in which the 11 were asking Christ Jesus when He would RESTORE (apokatheistem) the promised kingdom.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

They, were not asking about a process, they were simply asking when, the only person that can will restore it. Bingo!!
Acts 3:21 is contrasting the “ascension” with the “descension”. So the restoration period does not precede or preclude the return; it IS the return.
Take a look at the Greek word for “time” in both verse Acts 3:19 AND Acts3:21. Just like restitution / refreshing there is two different words used for time. Verse 19 uses “kairos” while 21 uses “chronos”.
kairos

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;​

chronos

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

It appears “kairos” differs as it can describe a “period of time” as a “special occasion”. “chronos” is defined as a space of time either long OR short. So in the case of verse 21, I think Peter was saying the “time of restoration” would be a short period AT the Second Coming.
Now, lets look at the word “until”. The Greek word translated until IN “UNTIL the times of restitution” was “akris”. This does not refer to a period or time, but as in the case of Noah…

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,​

It is used to describe the moment in time WHEN he got in the ark…

Same with the other examples of UNTIL (Acts 1:2 and 7:18)…….. All of these fit into explanation of “the times of restitution” being AT the Second Coming. I.e. not happening UNTIL the Second Coming.
I still believe this time is preceding the millennial reign and is only speaking of restoring Israel into their promised land (this time, all of it).

….If the times of restoration “just happens”, it can’t be referring to a 1000 year period. I think it’s more accurate to say the “restitution” is the entering into the kingdom…. I.e. the restoration of it; which just happens.

So you are right, He must wait in heaven UNTIL it’s time to leave… and restore the kingdom.

 

[Tractor1]

Aion / Strong’s #165
Definition
1. For ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. The worlds, universe
3. Period of time, age

A dispensation, meaning primarily stewardship, is a specific divine economy or a commitment from God to man of a responsibility he is to perform (Eph. 3:1-2). Though the term isn’t defined by time, some duration is needed for its completion. To further define the use of the term theologically, the Oxford English Dictionary says that a dispensation is “a stage in a progressive revelation, expressly adapted to the needs of a particular nation or period of time....also, the age or period during which a system has prevailed.”

The Bible, for the most part, presents three distinct dispensations: the Mosaic age, the Church age, and the Messianic kingdom age. Each required or will require a period of time to be brought to completion. The Mosaic age lasted a period of fifteen hundred years, from its enactment to the death of Christ. The current grace economy, or Church age, has lasted for a period of nearly two thousand years at this point, and the eventual reign of Christ in the kingdom age is said to last for a period of one thousand years (2 Pet. 3:8; Rev. 20:4). Whether or not someone recognizes the differing dispensations and their corresponding age is of no consequence to me, but their inability doesn't change the fact.

Now, I believe the original topic had to do with a period of time between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Terral]

Hi Tracy:

Aion / Strong’s #165
Definition
1. For ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. The worlds, universe
3. Period of time, age

A dispensation, meaning primarily stewardship, is a specific divine economy or a commitment from God to man of a responsibility he is to perform (Eph. 3:1-2). Though the term isn’t defined by time, some duration is needed for its completion. To further define the use of the term theologically, the Oxford English Dictionary says that a dispensation is “a stage in a progressive revelation, expressly adapted to the needs of a particular nation or period of time....also, the age or period during which a system has prevailed.”

We agree. A dispensation is more about God dealing with an individual household through a particular set of rules and through one particular steward. The Jews were given the Law through Moses. The gospel of the kingdom was given through Peter (Gal. 2:7), and our ‘gospel to the uncircumcised’ was given through Paul. Gal. 2:7. Paul is therefore the steward of this dispensation of God’s grace. The ‘time’ we are now in is one of those ‘times’ of restoration from Acts 3:21, where the members of the body of Christ are being gathered through Paul’s gospel (Rom. 16:25). That is the Gentile ‘people’ of Acts 15:14 and the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’ of Rom. 11:25. However, we are still in the same ‘age’ that started with the darkness of Gen. 1:2 that ends in Rev. 20:15.

Tracy >> The Bible, for the most part, presents three distinct dispensations: the Mosaic age, the Church age, and the Messianic kingdom age. Each required or will require a period of time to be brought to completion. The Mosaic age lasted a period of fifteen hundred years, from its enactment to the death of Christ.

No sir. These are ‘dispensations’ and not ‘ages.’ Please make the distinction. Dispensations are particular to households under individual stewards. Ages are not under stewards, but are governed by characteristics particular to that age; like the ‘darkness’ Gen. 1:2 and Eph. 6:12 being identical and still in power. That darkness must be over and dealt with for a new age to begin. The Jews are still under Mosaic Law and that dispensation today. Look at Vine’s final sentence in the definition of ‘dispensation’ that it is not a time or epoch.

Tracy >> The current grace economy, or Church age, has lasted for a period of nearly two thousand years at this point,

We agree; under the stewardship of Paul. Eph. 3:2.

Tracy >> and the eventual reign of Christ in the kingdom age is said to last for a period of one thousand years (2 Pet. 3:8; Rev. 20:4). Whether or not someone recognizes the differing dispensations and their corresponding age is of no consequence to me, but their inability doesn't change the fact.

No sir. Christ cannot be the steward of the kingdom here on earth. His kingdom is not even of this realm. John 18:36. He comes at the very ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3. He cannot come at the end, and participate here on earth at the beginning of the kingdom time of restoration upcoming.

Tracy >> Now, I believe the original topic had to do with a period of time between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

The original post at the top of this thread made a myriad of points that required our attention. This is what you get when you start with many errant statements at the top of the thread. This is how we iron things out.

God bless,

Terral

 

[Tractor1]

Terral writes:

The Jews are still under Mosaic Law and that dispensation today. Look at Vine’s final sentence in the definition of ‘dispensation’ that it is not a time or epoch.

I very much disagree. "But before faith came, we (Paul is here speaking as a Jew of his time) were kept in the custody of the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come (the new principle in faith), we are no longer under a tutor" (Gal. 3:23-25). In regard to Vine's, I'm not bound by their dictionary. A dispensation requires a period of time for its completion and according to Strong's that period constitutes an age.

In regard to your belief that Christ will not rule on this earth....well I believe you're very wrong. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree as your arguments are not persuasive.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[In Christ Forever]

Well, have any of you figured out which end of the "world" Daniel is talking about I myself think it was the end of the age with the destruction of the temple and that may have been the "restoration" spoken of. Come on folks. Help me out with this confusion in Daniel, as that will solve all of the confusion I think. How many clocks are ticking????


If you read Daniel's prophecy it states that 'an anointed prince' would be swept away and then the one who killed him would 'enter a seven year covenant' and practice all sorts of abominations, and, as it states in an even more jarring and incongruous fashion, 'the end of the world would come swiftly like a flood.' All this is rather 'jarring' to read, and does leave a person scratching their heads, wondering what is wrong with this picture. A doctrine of the 'revived Roman empire' was then concocted, and at the time this happens, the clock will start ticking again and that last bit of prophecy will finally be fulfilled. This might explain chapter nine, if you choose to accept such nimble interpretation, but another excuse would have to be cooked up for chapters 10 to 12, for it is self evident that in this source (written in the second century in response to Antiochus IV) the world did not end immediately after Antiochus despoiled Jerusalem and the temple, Michael was not outraged enough to promptly end the world. This 'clock' must have 'stopped ticking' as well, awaiting the awakening and the rise of the 'revived Selucid Greek empire' at which time it will finally be fulfilled. This would, of course, require ending the world twice (once to Revive the Romans and thus salvage chapter 9, and a second go at it to revive the Greeks and salvage chapter 12. Whether or not we can all tolerate suffering through two ends of the world is a good question, but this would be required to salvage the doctrine of 'Biblical inerrancy.' Most interpreters focus on chapter nine, and, it would seem, just ignore chapter 11. It is, after all, a simpler solution to their problem here.
I have noticed while comparing translations of different verses in the Bible, even the most literal translations can suddenly depart from literalism, perhaps visit the Greek Septuagint and abandon the Hebrew translation for a single verse, whenever some highly cherished doctrine might be threatened by a truly literal translation. Rule of thumb : you should never, ever rely exclusively on one single translation.) Afterall, TRUTH in the bible is to be sought after.

 

[Terral]

Hi Tracy:

Terral Old >> The Jews are still under Mosaic Law and that dispensation today. Look at Vine’s final sentence in the definition of ‘dispensation’ that it is not a time or epoch.

Tracy >> I very much disagree. "But before faith came, we (Paul is here speaking as a Jew of his time) were kept in the custody of the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come (the new principle in faith), we are no longer under a tutor" (Gal. 3:23-25).

Tracy, Tracy, Tracy . . . What is this you are writing? Please, sit back in your chair and think about this seriously for a moment. Yes, faith has come . . . the saving faith we needed to believe the gospel came through Calvary. How do we appropriate that faith to ourselves, so that ‘faith’ can become our possession?

“So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” Rom. 10:17.

Do you honestly believe that the typical secular or religious Jew walking the street today has believed our gospel that Christ died for sins on the cross, and God raised Him on the third day, and He is now at the right hand of God? Holy Mollies! Christ’s work on the cross made faith available, but the typical Jew does not even believe He is the Son of God; much less believe the gospel. Therefore, they cannot possibly have our saving faith as a possession.

Paul tells you that Israel has been blinded/hardened (Rom. 11:25). Faith has not come to them, and they are still under Mosaic Law. Even the Messianic Jew who believes Christ is the Messiah is under the Law (Matt. 5:18, James 2:10). Paul’s words to the Galatians were written specifically to members of the body of Christ who have been ‘baptized into Christ’ (Gal. 3:27) and have been clothed with Christ. Faith has come to ‘we’ who believe. What does Paul say? Christ is the end of the Law for everyone??

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Rom. 10:4.

That is what makes us ‘brethren’ in Christ, and everyone else ‘unbelievers.’ True Christianity is a . . . ‘faith,’ and that is the common heavenly possession of each believer in Christ. The dispensation of God’s grace was given to Paul for ‘Us.’ Eph. 3:2. You cannot drag outsiders into our household.

Tracy >> In regard to Vine's, I'm not bound by their dictionary. A dispensation requires a period of time for its completion and according to Strong's that period constitutes an age.

No Tracy. Scripture does not work in the way you wish. Each individual use of each of these words is written in a particular context in which we must obey. Just because a word ‘can’ be used in various ways does not give you the authority to use it any way you wish. Anyone truly seeking the truth of God’s Word knows better than to apply that kind of reasoning. Interpreting Scripture in such a manner is reckless indeed.

Tracy >> In regard to your belief that Christ will not rule on this earth....well I believe you're very wrong. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree as your arguments are not persuasive.

As you say . . . you can continue to disagree, but I will be convinced by an argument with supported statements that are within the definitions of the terms, as they were used 2000 years go; and not by the way you are forcing the Greek here today. My statements above are based on what is written in the Scriptures from the very beginning to the very end, and according to Vine’s definitions. Perhaps that is why you are very willing to simply disagree, than to try and disprove my statements. My best arguments are still in reserve, for when someone gives it a gentleman’s try.

If you are having this kind of difficulty with ‘dispensations,’ by trying to include Israel with the ‘body of Christ,’ then it appears you may not be ready to tackle the larger teachings of times (epochs), periods, seasons and ages. First we must be able to place folks in the appropriate households. Until we show signs of gaining a fundamental understanding of those principles, then the fact that we disagree on the big picture really does not mean very much. Again, if any of my words above this post appear off or unsupported, then please 'paste' that into your next reply, and show everyone my error. Then I will counter with a thoughtful reply,


In Christ,

Terral

 

[Tractor1]

If you are having this kind of difficulty with ‘dispensations,’ by trying to include [/font][/color]Israel with the ‘body of Christ,’ then it appears you may not be ready to tackle the larger teachings of times (epochs), periods, seasons and ages.

I hold to the truth that Israel and the Church are seperate and God has a specific plan for both, one earthly and the other heavenly. Though Israel has always had a believing remnant, today, in this age that remnant belongs to the Body of Christ. I've enjoyed our conversation.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[sawdust]

Hi Sawdust

Do not get any of that on me now. I’m a bricklayer.

Well, don't go getting me all riled up and I won't shake my dust off! (hehe)

Now, let me try to make sense of what you're saying here. I don't have a problem with the age thing. I have always seen this time frame from Genesis 1 to the end of Rev.20 as one age with Rev.21 beginning the new age. (I think that is what you are saying, yes?)
But I'm having a dickens of a problem with the concept of Christ not returning till the end of this age as defined above and this seems to be what you are saying. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so let me see if I'm seeing the same picture as you intend me to see.
The clock according to Terral (maybe):
Christ is waiting in heaven, (waiting, waiting)
Meanwhile on earth, Elijah returns, restores the Kingdom to Israel and brings in a "golden age" (the millenium?)
Then comes the end, Holy Spirit returns to heaven, Satan is loosed, Christ returns to earth, slays Satan with His breath and chucks him in the lake of fire.
End of age, new age begins.

Unless I have completely misunderstood you, you will see why I'm having difficulty here because there is no accounting for the tribulation, the war in heaven, Satan being cast down, no chaining of Satan, the coming of Christ with His saints prior to any "golden era", no signing of a peace treaty between the Antichrist and Israel, no worldwide destruction, wars, disease, famine etc.

Seeing as this thread is titled "God's prophetic clock" maybe you could give a brief scenario overview as to what you see happening so I can understand what is in your mind a little clearer. (please)

The one thing that stands out most in my mind is you state Christ can't return to earth while the Holy Spirit remains. I agree, but in taking to account

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 2Thess.2:5-9

My understanding from this is the world descends into anarchy at the return of the Spirit to heaven. The tribulation is effectively Lucifer's "golden hour" when he gets to "strut his stuff" on earth in all his "glory" (so called). The judgement, effected at the Cross, is now poured out from Heaven (God's wrath) and woe, woe, woe to those who have chosen evil rather than believe on the Righteousness of God.
Personally I don't understand the mindset that would choose darkness over light, but then again, I don't think I want to either.

Sorry if I'm confused but you are covering a lot of ground here.

peace