God's Order of Salvation

[Jack Terrence]

Yes the verse is saying that all men cannot believe, because you know it's true. All men are born in blind unbelief and thewy remain dead in their sin unless God quickens them to life. The bible is very clear about this fact, but you somehow think that dead people an make themselves alive and produce grace and faith of their own to save themselves.

No, the verse says that men cannot keep the law of God. Faith is not law. It is antithetical to law. Therefore, it does not say that men cannot believe. If all men were born blind, then they wouldn't need to be blinded by God. And those who were blinded by God were blinded because they had already refused to believe. And those God blinded were always the Jewish leaders. God blinded ONLY Jewish leaders who had already refused to believe.

Gentiles (non Jews) have always been Gods chosen people, but God didn't reveal that to the Israelites in the OT, but then again God didn't reveal much about why He does what He does so He remains a mystery just as He always has been.

God revealed to Israelites that he chose them ONLY. This clearly means that Gentiles were NOT chosen.

"You [Israel] ONLY have I chosen of all the families of the earth." Who were the families of the earth? Answer: Gentiles. "You ONLY have I chosen and not Gentiles."

God has never told anyone who He has chosen to save, the Israelites were a special people to Him but that doesn't mean He didn't choose others before He created the world. The Gentiles were grafted into the Church, so it looks to us like God chose to add them at a point in time, but that is not true because we know that God preordained the whole of human history for the start to it's finish, before He created the world.

Correct. God chose to add them "at a point in time" and not before the foundation of the world.

God doesn't never added anything, nor did He ever change His mind about anything. So you can say "from my point of view it appears that God grafted Gentiles into the Church (Israel of God) but from Gods perspective it was done before He created the world

"When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he CHANGED HIS MIND and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened." Jonah 3:10

If you don't believe the bible doctrine of predestination and election to salvation, then you are denying Gods Word and you can't claim to be a believer while you deny what Gods has said.

I believe it and I understand that election and predestination was about the remnant of ancient Israel only. It never had anything to do with Gentiles or anyone beyond apostolic times. Paul said that the remnant was in "this PRESENT time."

"So too, at this PRESENT time there is a remnant chosen by grace." Romans 11:5

Paul didn't say that there was a remnant in our time. He said the remnant was in his PRESENT time. There is no election and predestination today. Today anyone who will believe may be saved.

If you don't believe in Gods sovereignty in salvation, then I would put it to you that "you were with us for 40 years, then you fell away o make it manifest that you never were of us".

God is sovereign. He sovereignly chose to choose Israel only and to add Gentiles later as you yourself said. He sovereignly chose to save the remnant of Israel in Paul's day and to offer salvation to whosoever believes in our day. Sovereignty is not the issue. The issue is that we think differently about God's sovereign plan. My view is biblical and yours is not.

We are accepted but not chosen.

 

[Clare73]

This is all of creation which includes every human. How do you think God is going to create a new heaven and earth.​

He will cleanse the earth of all the unrighteous by fire (2 Pe 3:10-13).

It is because all sin has been taken away, just as the human body will grow old and die. This earth will and every thing in it will also die and the heaven and the sun, moon and stars. Sin affected every single part of God's creation.

 

[d taylor]

He will cleanse the earth of all the unrighteous by fire (2 Pe 3:10-13).

-
​

Those verses in 2 Peter are addressing the end of the tribulation and the removing of all unbelievers and the restoring of the earth for the up and coming 1000 rule of the Messiah.

 

[Clare73]

-Those verses in 2 Peter are addressing the end of the tribulation and the removing of all unbelievers and the restoring of the earth for the up and coming 1000 rule of the Messiah.​

There is neither a distinct tribulation nor 1000-year rule of the Messiah in apostolic teaching.

That is personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation,

such as: the 1,000 years (a number of completion) and the tribulation (Jn 15:18-21, 16:33) are figurative of the church age, where the first resurrection is from spiritual death to spiritual life in the new birth.

 

[oikonomia]

Paul describes the law of the Spirit of life, and the law of sin and death. So Roams 8 makes the distinction between believers and unbelievers, by the law they are governed by.

Don't you think that "the mind set on the flesh is death" pertains to Christians no matter how long they have been saved?
Don't you think that "the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" is relevant to Christians no matter how long they have been believers?

Paul does exhort us to set our minds on the things of God, so we don't get entangled with the cares of this world.

I believe so. But I would say he exhorts us to set our mind on a Person Himself - Christ who is the Spirit.
Here it is to set the mind on the "things which are above" as you know.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. (Col. 3:2)

But here in Romans he is even more definite, that we set our mind on the Person of the Spirit who is one with our regenerated spirit.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:6)

For the Lord Jesus Christ is with our regenerated spirit.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)

How intimate and close the Lord Jesus is living within us - one spirit with us.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

Whereas the sense of death is characterized by vanity, weakness, emptiness, darkness, restlessness, uneasiness, even depresssion.
But the sense of life and peace is characterized by joy, fulness, peacefulness, contentment, well-being, and refreshment.

We Christians must even realize that god regulates us not by the knowledge of good and evil but the sense of life and peace.
This internal sense of divine life and peace is like an umpire deciding everything concerning our actions.
The sense of life and peace is the divine arbitrator regulating whether we are in the good graces of the Lord or not.

And the peace of God, which surpasses every man’s understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

The result of touching the Lord with a prayerful spirit is fellowship issuing in the enjoyment of peace with God.
The peace of God is actually God Himself AS peace as seen in verse 9.

The things which you have also learned and received and heard and seen in me,
practice these things; and the God of peace will be with you. (v.9)

This peace is the arbitrator guiding and directing us. The peace acts as a counterpoise to troubles and an antidote to
anxieties. As a divine sentinel He mounts a guard to "guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus."
The God of peace patrols before our hearts and thoughts keeping them on the indwelling Person.
This keeps us calm and tranquil.

It is a big step to realize that it is not right and wrong as our main advizor.
But it is the sense of Christ within as life and peace must guide us. Amen.

I contribute a song to Christ the last Adam who became a life giving Spirit.

 

[Dan1988]

Don't you think that "the mind set on the flesh is death" pertains to Christians no matter how long they have been saved?
Don't you think that "the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" is relevant to Christians no matter how long they have been believers?

I believe so. But I would say he exhorts us to set our mind on a Person Himself - Christ who is the Spirit.
Here it is to set the mind on the "things which are above" as you know.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. (Col. 3:2)

But here in Romans he is even more definite, that we set our mind on the Person of the Spirit who is one with our regenerated spirit.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:6)

For the Lord Jesus Christ is with our regenerated spirit.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)

How intimate and close the Lord Jesus is living within us - one spirit with us.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

Whereas the sense of death is characterized by vanity, weakness, emptiness, darkness, restlessness, uneasiness, even depresssion.
But the sense of life and peace is characterized by joy, fulness, peacefulness, contentment, well-being, and refreshment.

We Christians must even realize that god regulates us not by the knowledge of good and evil but the sense of life and peace.
This internal sense of divine life and peace is like an umpire deciding everything concerning our actions.
The sense of life and peace is the divine arbitrator regulating whether we are in the good graces of the Lord or not.

And the peace of God, which surpasses every man’s understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

The result of touching the Lord with a prayerful spirit is fellowship issuing in the enjoyment of peace with God.
The peace of God is actually God Himself AS peace as seen in verse 9.

The things which you have also learned and received and heard and seen in me,
practice these things; and the God of peace will be with you. (v.9)

This peace is the arbitrator guiding and directing us. The peace acts as a counterpoise to troubles and an antidote to
anxieties. As a divine sentinel He mounts a guard to "guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus."
The God of peace patrols before our hearts and thoughts keeping them on the indwelling Person.
This keeps us calm and tranquil.

It is a big step to realize that it is not right and wrong as our main advizor.
But it is the sense of Christ within as life and peace must guide us. Amen.

I contribute a song to Christ the last Adam who became a life giving Spirit.

I think we need to establish what the scripture is saying regarding "the mind being set on the flesh or set on the Spirit".

The word "set" seems to be the key word in those verses. You will act according to what your mind is set on, so the mind of the unbeliever is set on his flesh and the mind of the believer is set on the Spirit.
But given the fact that believers are fallen creatures, we will still struggle to keep our mind set on the Spirit and we will regularly succumb to temptation and feed our flesh.

Being overwhelmed by temptation, doesn't mean that we lose our status as those who's minds are set on the Spirit, it just means we lost that battle but we haven't lost the war.
But the unbeliever is not fighting any war, so he's not under the law and neither can he be. The unbeliever is enslaved by his sin and Satan. He can't obey Gods law while he is serving sin and Satan.

The length of time that a believer has been saved, has no baring on his state. All believers are in the same boat, we are all beggars ho have nothing to offer God except for our filthy stinking rags. Being exhorted to set our minds on things above, is not a command. So it should be considered as good advice, and not as some requirement for salvation.

We can try to set our minds on the things above, but the reality is, we are still wrestling with our old nature, with all of it's lust and it cries out to have it's lust fulfilled so we will regularly succumb to it's temptation because we will never conquer temptation in this life.
Paul confirmed this truth, when he said in Romans 7:19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

So Paul demits that his lust is more powerful than his desire to obey God, and this is coming from a Saint of God. So what chance do ordinary garden variety Church goers have of keeping the law or being faithful toi set their minds on the things above.

 

[Dan1988]

No, the verse says that men cannot keep the law of God. Faith is not law. It is antithetical to law. Therefore, it does not say that men cannot believe. If all men were born blind, then they wouldn't need to be blinded by God. And those who were blinded by God were blinded because they had already refused to believe. And those God blinded were always the Jewish leaders. God blinded ONLY Jewish leaders who had already refused to believe.

God revealed to Israelites that he chose them ONLY. This clearly means that Gentiles were NOT chosen.

"You [Israel] ONLY have I chosen of all the families of the earth." Who were the families of the earth? Answer: Gentiles. "You ONLY have I chosen and not Gentiles."

Correct. God chose to add them "at a point in time" and not before the foundation of the world.

"When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he CHANGED HIS MIND and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened." Jonah 3:10

I believe it and I understand that election and predestination was about the remnant of ancient Israel only. It never had anything to do with Gentiles or anyone beyond apostolic times. Paul said that the remnant was in "this PRESENT time."

"So too, at this PRESENT time there is a remnant chosen by grace." Romans 11:5

Paul didn't say that there was a remnant in our time. He said the remnant was in his PRESENT time. There is no election and predestination today. Today anyone who will believe may be saved.

God is sovereign. He sovereignly chose to choose Israel only and to add Gentiles later as you yourself said. He sovereignly chose to save the remnant of Israel in Paul's day and to offer salvation to whosoever believes in our day. Sovereignty is not the issue. The issue is that we think differently about God's sovereign plan. My view is biblical and yours is not.

We are accepted but not chosen.

I'm not sure what you mean that "they wouldn't need to be blinded by God". Why would God need to blind, blind men. We are all born dead in our sin, (blind). Blind is interchangeable with dead in the context of fallen man.

You're suggesting that man is not born dead in sin (blind) and Gods Word is against you here. He confirmed that we are all born dead. So please explain how a dead man can make himself alive and then chose to love who he hates and heat who he loves, your theology doesn't make any sense at all.

Why would God need to blind Jewish leaders who didn't believe, don't you know that unbelievers are already blind???...

The biblical meaning of "Israelites" is Gods people, as you are well aware there's not a single Jew or Israeli among Gods people, and there are no Gentiles either. If you don't believe this, then you don't believe what Gods Word says about the matter.

The families of the earth, means people from every tribe, tongue and corner of the world. You can't pluck out verses of scripture in isolation, they must all agree with each other, otherwise you make God a liar.

The Gentiles were added physically at a given point in time, but they were chosen before time began and each of their names was written in Gods book before time began, so your theory falls over and it breaks into pieces, because you're trying to fit Gods ways into your ways and you will never succeed. Not now not in eternity to come.

It's foolish to try and figure out what God hid from us. He hides things for a good reason, so we should leave Him to do His thing and all we must do is trust and obey and never ever question why God does what He does.

God has never ever ever changed His mind about anything, because it's impossible for God to change His mind. He simply cannot do it, that verse you quoted is not saying what your trying to make it say. I don't have the time to correct you on every point, so I would suggest you do your own study and find out what the verse is actually saying.

I can't agree with any of your views regarding the bible doctrine of election onto salvation, none of your views line up with the bible and you need to trash half of the bible to make your theology float.

 

[oikonomia]

I think we need to establish what the scripture is saying regarding "the mind being set on the flesh or set on the Spirit".

The word "set" seems to be the key word in those verses. You will act according to what your mind is set on, so the mind of the unbeliever is set on his flesh and the mind of the believer is set on the Spirit.

With Romans 8 I am no longer concerned with the unbeliever. This chapter is mainly for those who are Christ's, having the Spirit of Christ.
Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (v.9)

We are now at what might be considered the high peak of the epistle to the Romans. Earlier chapters dealt with the plight of
unbelievers. Now we are in (if you will) downtown Romans. We the saved believers is the focus.

Set the mind is a decided act of will. It is to turn our heart to the indwelling Spirit.
We can place our mind toward the Lord. Or we can drift with the common current of the world and set our mind on ourselves or other things.

This is an exercise which we must practice and develop thoughout our whole Christian life.
When we call "Abba Father" with a loving heart as in verse 16, we are setting our mind on our Father God.
We are placing out mind on the Spirit. Our mind is moved from many other distractions and SET on the living God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again,
but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba, Father! (8:16)

This is only one of many ways we may deliberately and intentionally set out mind on the Spirit in our spirit.
Many Christians set their mind on the Spirit yet rather randomly, as if they do so accidently.
Perhaps a song sung brings them into the Spirit. Perhaps some sincere prayer in time of serious need sets their mind on the Spirit.

We need not wait to accidently set the mind on the Spirit. Rather we can regularly exercise deliberately to do so.
Praising, thanking, calling "Lord Jesus", calling Praise the Lord, or "Abba Father" are all of many ways our MOUTH can
help us to turn our heart to the Lord and to set our mind on the Spirit in our spirit.

But given the fact that believers are fallen creatures, we will still struggle to keep our mind set on the Spirit and we will regularly succumb to temptation and feed our flesh.

Since we Christians are like salmon fish swimming against the strong current of a godless world we must exercise.
We are told to exercise ourselves unto godliness. This is a act of will, decision fueled by love.

. . . exercise yourself unto godliness. ( 1 Tim. 4:7b)

Here exercise of the spiritual part of our being is compared somewhat to physical exercise.

. . . exercise yourself unto godliness. For bodily exercise is profitable for a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the present life and of that which is to come. (v. 7b.8)

Being overwhelmed by temptation, doesn't mean that we lose our status as those who's minds are set on the Spirit, it just means we lost that battle but we haven't lost the war.

That is true. When we fall we take the blood of Jesus and get up an walk again in the Spirit. This passage has helped in not being discouraged.
For a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again, / But the wicked are overthrown by calamity. (Prov. 24:16)

Naturally as young humans we learn to walk after many stumblings. I do not think the Lord is as concerned as we are about
our occasional falls. He knows we are learning to walk. He has made ample provision for our cleansing and rising up to walk again in Him.

But the unbeliever is not fighting any war, so he's not under the law and neither can he be. The unbeliever is enslaved by his sin and Satan. He can't obey Gods law while he is serving sin and Satan.

Yes. By Romans 8 all this has been firmly established already in the section of Condemnation in first two chapters.
Now we are on the other side of Justification by Faith in chapter 4. We are in downtown Romans for Christians forever saved.

The length of time that a believer has been saved, has no baring on his state. All believers are in the same boat, we are all beggars ho have nothing to offer God except for our filthy stinking rags. Being exhorted to set our minds on things above, is not a command. So it should be considered as good advice, and not as some requirement for salvation.

I do not understand why you would not take Paul's exhortation as that - an injunction to decide deliberately with the human will to DO something. Again read him?

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. (Col. 3:1,2)

As a matter of fact to decide to SET the mind on Christ and all the things above included in Christ, we spontaneously
obey another command - to put to death the practices of the members of our fallen body.

Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry; (v.5)

In other words by setting our mind on Christ (all the living things above) we also put to death the practices of the fallen body.
And this is divine life and peace for us - For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6)

Brother I must leave this fellowship for now and continue latter.

 

[Dan1988]

With Romans 8 I am no longer concerned with the unbeliever. This chapter is mainly for those who are Christ's, having the Spirit of Christ.
Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (v.9)

We are now at what might be considered the high peak of the epistle to the Romans. Earlier chapters dealt with the plight of
unbelievers. Now we are in (if you will) downtown Romans. We the saved believers is the focus.

Set the mind is a decided act of will. It is to turn our heart to the indwelling Spirit.
We can place our mind toward the Lord. Or we can drift with the common current of the world and set our mind on ourselves or other things.

This is an exercise which we must practice and develop thoughout our whole Christian life.
When we call "Abba Father" with a loving heart as in verse 16, we are setting our mind on our Father God.
We are placing out mind on the Spirit. Our mind is moved from many other distractions and SET on the living God.
For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again,
but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba, Father! (8:16)

This is only one of many ways we may deliberately and intentionally set out mind on the Spirit in our spirit.
Many Christians set their mind on the Spirit yet rather randomly, as if they do so accidently.
Perhaps a song sung brings them into the Spirit. Perhaps some sincere prayer in time of serious need sets their mind on the Spirit.

We need not wait to accidently set the mind on the Spirit. Rather we can regularly exercise deliberately to do so.
Praising, thanking, calling "Lord Jesus", calling Praise the Lord, or "Abba Father" are all of many ways our MOUTH can
help us to turn our heart to the Lord and to set our mind on the Spirit in our spirit.


Since we Christians are like salmon fish swimming against the strong current of a godless world we must exercise.
We are told to exercise ourselves unto godliness. This is a act of will, decision fueled by love.

. . . exercise yourself unto godliness. ( 1 Tim. 4:7b)

Here exercise of the spiritual part of our being is compared somewhat to physical exercise.

. . . exercise yourself unto godliness. For bodily exercise is profitable for a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the present life and of that which is to come. (v. 7b.8)

That is true. When we fall we take the blood of Jesus and get up an walk again in the Spirit. This passage has helped in not being discouraged.
For a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again, / But the wicked are overthrown by calamity. (Prov. 24:16)

Naturally as young humans we learn to walk after many stumblings. I do not think the Lord is as concerned as we are about
our occasional falls. He knows we are learning to walk. He has made ample provision for our cleansing and rising up to walk again in Him.

Yes. By Romans 8 all this has been firmly established already in the section of Condemnation in first two chapters.
Now we are on the other side of Justification by Faith in chapter 4. We are in downtown Romans for Christians forever saved.

I do not understand why you would not take Paul's exhortation as that - an injunction to decide deliberately with the human will to DO something. Again read him?

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. (Col. 3:1,2)

As a matter of fact to decide to SET the mind on Christ and all the things above included in Christ, we spontaneously
obey another command - to put to death the practices of the members of our fallen body.

Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry; (v.5)

In other words by setting our mind on Christ (all the living things above) we also put to death the practices of the fallen body.
And this is divine life and peace for us - For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6)

Brother I must leave this fellowship for now and continue latter.

Well said, and thank you for sharing that most encouraging message. It has helped me to put things into perspective and to prioritize the most important things.

I'm glad you took the time to answer my concerns and give biblical examples with your answers.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I'm not sure what you mean that "they wouldn't need to be blinded by God". Why would God need to blind, blind men. We are all born dead in our sin, (blind).

No. Dead does NOT mean blind. It means condemned.

"And you were dead [condemned] in your trespasses and sins."

You're suggesting that man is not born dead in sin (blind) and Gods Word is against you here.

We were not born blind. Dead means "condemned." God's word is actually against you. King Solomon observed that God created all men upright but that they deviated from their uprightness.

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright — Whatever evil may be now found among men and women, it is not of God; for God made them all upright. Ecclesiastes 7:29

You are saying that that God's word is against king Solomon's observations.

Why would God need to blind Jewish leaders who didn't believe, don't you know that unbelievers are already blind???...

My question exactly. It is Calvinists who say that God blinds some unbelievers. Why would that be necessary if all unbelievers are already born blind?

The biblical meaning of "Israelites" is Gods people, as you are well aware there's not a single Jew or Israeli among Gods people, and there are no Gentiles either. If you don't believe this, then you don't believe what Gods Word says about the matter.

Wrong. Paul said that those whom God foreknew were physical Israelites. They were the people he chose.

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew?" Romans 11:1-2

The people God foreknew were physical Israelites.

"You ONLY have I known of all the families of the earth." Amos 3:2

You are suggesting that God lied to Israel when he told them that he knew them ONLY. Israel is distinguished from all the families of the earth which were NOT chosen. That would be the gentiles. Gentiles were NOT chosen.

The Gentiles were added physically at a given point in time, but they were chosen before time began and each of their names was written in Gods book before time began, so your theory falls over and it breaks into pieces....

The Bible nowhere says that Gentiles were chosen before time began. God himself explicitly said that they were not.

Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea,

“Those who were not my people,
I will now call my people.
And I will now love those
whom I did not love before.”

This clearly says that Gentiles were not loved pre-loved. If they were not pre-loved, then they were not pre-chosen. I am going to continue to repeat these verses to you until you deal with them.

It's foolish to try and figure out what God hid from us.

God doesn't hide things from his friends.

God has never ever ever changed His mind about anything, because it's impossible for God to change His mind. He simply cannot do it, that verse you quoted is not saying what your trying to make it say. I don't have the time to correct you on every point, so I would suggest you do your own study and find out what the verse is actually saying.

You need to read the Bible. God prophesied in the book of Nahum that he would destroy Nineveh. He sent Jonah to Nineveh to preach destruction and not repentance. But Nineveh repented and it clearly says that God changed his mind and did not destroy them. Jeremiah 18:1-10 clearly says that if a nation repents of its evil he will change his plans. Read it.

You Calvinists limit God to your erroneous concepts of his decrees. You have God in a strait jacket unable to move his hands.

I can't agree with any of your views regarding the bible doctrine of election onto salvation, none of your views line up with the bible and you need to trash half of the bible to make your theology float.

Yet my views are the views of the early church. Your views came 1500 years later.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

I think that just sounds weird. Let's think of an example, if you go onto an airplane and you have faith in the pilot that he will land the plane safely, did someone give you that faith as a gift? Doesn't that sound odd? God's grace is a gift, salvation is a gift but not faith necessarily. I guess you could say faith is a gift in the sense that God has given every person the measure of faith but it's not like people are going to automatically put their faith on Christ to save them.

 

[David Lamb]

I think that just sounds weird. Let's think of an example, if you go onto an airplane and you have faith in the pilot that he will land the plane safely, did someone give you that faith as a gift? Doesn't that sound odd? God's grace is a gift, salvation is a gift but not faith necessarily. I guess you could say faith is a gift in the sense that God has given every person the measure of faith but it's not like people are going to automatically put their faith on Christ to save them.

If faith were not God's gift, but something we had to produce ourselves, we would be able to point to faith as something we could take credit for. But Paul writes:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

 

[Diamond72]

faith is also a gift

Faith is a gift and a fruit. People do have faith apart from God. The placebo effect is an example of this. The power of suggestion and the power of positive thinking is powerful. The law of attraction and even the Buddists talk about this. They talk about positive and negative energy.

Some people think that grumbling and complaining to God is prayer but we have to have faith and believe. That means we need positive and not negative energy. I think depression is caused by people that allow themselves to have negative thoughts.

 

[Dan1988]

Faith is a gift and a fruit. People do have faith apart from God. The placebo effect is an example of this. The power of suggestion and the power of positive thinking is powerful. The law of attraction and even the Buddists talk about this. They talk about positive and negative energy.

Some people think that grumbling and complaining to God is prayer but we have to have faith and believe. That means we need positive and not negative energy. I think depression is caused by people that allow themselves to have negative thoughts.

I don't doubt that unbelievers have faith in things, but their faith is not in God, it's in their idol who or whatever that may be. Most unbelievers put their faith in themselves, so they idolize self, and God has nothing to do with them, because they can never ever have faith in God because the things of God are utter foolishness to them and they hate God so why would they put their faith in someone they hate.

I don't know anything about Buddhism, and I have no time for any other religion either. I'm trying to learn about God and everything He commanded and taught, there is no place for any Christian to look to Demonic religions for any instruction or teaching.

We don't have to have faith, who told you we have to have faith. How can we have faith when we are all born in our trespasses and sin, hating God and everything to do with Him. You're pretending that man is not fallen and that he can choose to believe and repent and to manufacture faith in God.
Nothing you have suggested can be supported by Gods Word. It sounds like you thought up this stuff, yourself.

 

[Diamond72]

We don't have to have faith

We have to produce fruit. Matthew 12 33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit." Galatians 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"

I have never in my life heard anyone say we do not have to have faith. One thing is for sure, we have to have the Grace of God doing a work in us and in our life.

 

[Diamond72]

Nothing you have suggested can be supported by Gods Word.

MAYBE you are only passing judgement on yourself. God does not give us the ability to judge others. Romans 14 4 "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

 

[Dan1988]

We have to produce fruit. Matthew 12 33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit." Galatians 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"

I have never in my life heard anyone say we do not have to have faith. One thing is for sure, we have to have the Grace of God doing a work in us and in our life.

Now I'm really confused, you say we have to produce fruit but the bible never said any such thing, so this must be your private opinion again.

I don't know anything about making a tree good or bad, I can't even make a speck of dust, let alone a whole tree.

I never in my life heard anyone say we need to have faith. One thing is for sure, we don't need the grace of God to do a work in us or our life. The grace of God is not a work done in our lives.

 

[Dan1988]

MAYBE you are only passing judgement on yourself. God does not give us the ability to judge others. Romans 14 4 "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

But my God has given me the ability to judge others. I mean, why would He command me to judge everyone, unless He first gave me the ability to do so. See how that works?

 

[David Lamb]

Faith is a gift and a fruit. People do have faith apart from God. The placebo effect is an example of this. The power of suggestion and the power of positive thinking is powerful. The law of attraction and even the Buddhists talk about this. They talk about positive and negative energy.

Some people think that grumbling and complaining to God is prayer but we have to have faith and believe. That means we need positive and not negative energy. I think depression is caused by people that allow themselves to have negative thoughts.

What biblical basis do you have for saying that faith is a fruit? We have the fruit of the Spirit:

“22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Ga 5:22-23 NKJV)

However, I can't think of any biblical reference to faith being a fruit.

 

[Diamond72]

However, I can't think of any biblical reference to faith being a fruit.

Are you saying faithfulness is different from faith? Think of faith as the seed, and faithfulness as the nurturing and growth of that seed through consistent actions and loyalty.