God's Morals?

[EGoldstein]

I used to be a Christian but left my church because of a realization I had about the nature of the Christian God. How can anyone consider God moral while at the same time be appalled by the atrocities committed against the Jews during WWII, the genocides in Africa, or any other horrific historical event? One example is the story of the flood; God regretted making humans and therefore decided to kill everyone except for Noah and his family because they were the only ones deemed righteous. But instead of just killing the unrighteous of mankind, God decided to also kill all of the innocent children. Why did God feel it was moral to kill innocent children as bystanders in his mass homicide? Why does God give us a moral code to follow that He, himself, does not adhere to as well? Isn't that hypocrisy?

 

[drich0150]

I used to be a Christian but left my church because of a realization I had about the nature of the Christian God. How can anyone consider God moral while at the same time be appalled by the atrocities committed against the Jews during WWII, the genocides in Africa, or any other horrific historical event? One example is the story of the flood; God regretted making humans and therefore decided to kill everyone except for Noah and his family because they were the only ones deemed righteous. But instead of just killing the unrighteous of mankind, God decided to also kill all of the innocent children. Why did God feel it was moral to kill innocent children as bystanders in his mass homicide? Why does God give us a moral code to follow that He, himself, does not adhere to as well? Isn't that hypocrisy?

So you find fault when God does not intervene, (the Holocaust) and you find fault when he does?? (the Flood) So I guess my question would be what does a non-hypocritical or "moral" God look like to you?

 

[AgnosticAtheistMike]

So you find fault when God does not intervene, (the Holocaust) and you find fault when he does?? (the Flood) So I guess my question would be what does a non-hypocritical or "moral" God look like to you?

Why do you answer a question with a question?

 

[drich0150]

Why do you answer a question with a question?

Why did you?

My reason was for clarity.

If God can do nothing right in this persons eyes then nothing I can say or none of the principles I have to teach will matter. If this is a matter of simple confusion, or of someone seeking away past their own personal brand of right and wrong then I may be able to help.. It all goes back to some thing Jesus said about throwing pearls of wisdom before swine.. Kinda like what I think I'm doing now, so lets see what happens.

 

[drich0150]

To me, a 'moral' god is one who does not assume that it is above answering for it's mistakes.

So who does God answer to here? Because if "He" made a "mistake" Then that would mean that his providence or will is subject to someone or some other deity, and that would disqualify Him as "God."

God's morality or His Will IS The Bench Mark For Morality. Everything he does is moral, because his will defines morality.

If we used our will as a bench mark for ultimate morality then the question becomes what culture do we use? or what time period is God supposed to live by?? what about 1930's Germany? Or 1960's Soviet Union? How is this any better than 1990's or current western thinking? and even then in what region? California? New York? Iowa? We all have our own ideas of what's right. Unless we have "god's morality" as a guiding light we, tend to simple make or justify our current life styles as true morality.

If God was subject to our will then he would not be worthy of worship.. If He had to apologize every time someone was offended then how would he be any different than any of us?

Death is the end all for all of us. For us, there is nothing else, or nothing so permanent as death. It's the closest we can physically come to eternity, and I believe that scares those without God to no end.. And, for someone to assign "death" to an entire group or planet of people, there can be no other higher immoral act.. But again to God, this life and the next are a product of his efforts. Meaning he is Lord and master of them both realms. In other words if He gives life or takes it away, Glory be to God, because that life, our lives, are his to give or take.

As i said in my last post,this life is to prove to ourselves in whom we will live for. Ourselves or our God.. The people in Noah's Day have proved to themselves beyond any shadow of doubt and far beyond God's sense of Holy righteousness, in whom they willed to live for.. Not just one or two but the entire population of this planet save one family..

Imagine all of the horror and the manor of depravity we witnessed in the concentration camps of WWII Germany, and the general downward spiral our culture, and yet none of this sparks the same kind of response that Noah's generation did. Why? Because there were/are more than a single family here living among us to be found righteous before the Lord.. But our day is coming. There will be a day when the cup of man's iniquity will run over, and the fools paradise we have built to our glory will come down around us.

I say all of that to say, God does not need to to tricks or grant wishes, for our approval. We have been given an opportunity (This life) to show him that even without is presents fully know to us, we can be faithful with the understanding of what we have been given, and through that we can establish and maintain a relationship with him.

 

[EGoldstein]

So the children during the time of Noah had decided to be unrighteous? God says "thou shalt not kill" but then He kills innocent children. If God sets the moral standard, killing innocent children should be okay for us to do.
As for what a moral God would be in my opinion with regards to the flood and holocaust, is one who would have spared not only Noah and his family but the innocent children as well, and one who would have killed Hitler before he could have committed any of the atrocities that he did.
A moral and just God isn't a God who would be willing to eternally torture anyone who didn't believe in or want to worship Him. If he was the creator of all people, he would realize that He created some people with a predisposition towards logical thinking and skepticism. How could he punish people for using the mental abilities (logic, doubt) that he gave to them?
The Christian God seems more like a spoiled child who punishes the people who don't do what he wants them to. A God who was truly loving would be above jealousy and anger and would forgive everyone regardless of what they believed in.

 

[drich0150]

God says "thou shalt not kill" but then He kills innocent children.

But that's just it, You don't know that they were in fact innocent, and again Death is not the end for God. Not that we have scripture to prove this is what he did, but how easy would it be for him to take those souls and plug them into another life at a later time?

You mentioned God killing Hitler as a child, I would ask would you (as God) kill Little "innocent" Adolf at 3 to spare all of those involved in the Holocaust? What if one of those who dies under Hitlers rule turns out to be another Hitler or Stalin, himself? how many would you kill, to preserve the idea of righteousness you have for this world? To what standard will you decide who lives and who dies? What will you do with all of those who will morally object to what may seem to them (Even using all of the powers of deductive reasoning you gave them) it all appears to be indiscriminate killing of an immoral god (you)?


And for what, because remember this whole Life/realm that you have created was to be a proving grounds for all of those in whom you have given life to show themselves where in fact their loyalties lie.. What good is all of this if your presents is constantly known/seen and your hand is ever present in changing events to try and reproduce a "Heaven" that already exists? What would the purpose of this life be? How will free will actually work if in fact you keep taking away people or people's bad choices? The way I see it this life Would be your will would it not? all for the sake of your idea of righteousness?

Wasn't that how Hitler got started? Isn't that How he came to power in the first place? Trying to right all that had gone wrong after WWI? Without Absolutes you will be subject to your peers, and your ideas of right and wrong will be influenced, by the company you choose to keep. So big picture, would any of your interventions be infarct moral?

A moral and just God isn't a God who would be willing to eternally torture anyone who didn't believe in or want to worship Him.

God doesn't torture those who do not wish to worship Him. We are simply given a choice to live with God, and all that he has created for us for eternity, or to Be sent somewhere completely devoid of God (Which includes all of His creation)

The torture comes from with in ourselves, because at that point we realize that all of the predispositions for "logical thought, and skepticism," were nothing more than a vain attempt in "daring" God to reveal himself to us. and when He fails to appear we build temples of "logic" to our superior intellect.. An Intellect that will fail us when we enter the void because even the restraints we have on our minds are apart of the same creation in which, those who wind up in the void, spend a lifetime scoffing at.

This "torture" is one of our own design and choosing. Because if we do not want to be with God for eternity, then our only other option is an eternity away from him, and alone with all that we can conjure out of nothingness.. Only an immoral God would drag someone kicking and screaming into his presents if that person in fact spent a life time trying to put distance between themselves and God..

A God who was truly loving would be above jealousy and anger and would forgive everyone regardless of what they believed in.

Jealousy and anger are just as much apart of Love as forgiveness and understanding. If you have gotten past your first 20 years I'm sure you have experienced this.. If you are married would you share your wife with others? if yes would you share you mother with others as you would share your wife? why not? Because you love her? Perhaps, it's Because other men need to respect and acknowledge the relationship you have with these women? and like wise these women in turn also need to have that same understanding with you??

We are created in God's image. That means we are given a measure of the same feelings and emotions that He has. These feelings and emotions are especially accurate when it comes to a healthy love based relationship. In these matters we don't fall far from that tree.

 

[drich0150]

God kills for trivial things in the bible. If god kills, then does it make it ok for humans to kill, if God sets the standard for morals?

Triviality is a concept in which we can not truly/accurately judge. Because we do not have or know the long term effects of letting something/someone live or what killing them would be. God alone is in the unique position to make that judgment.

You in fact have the ability to kill now, and if you don't believe in God then what does it matter what others "think" God wants for us?

 

[drich0150]

A completely corrupt Generation.. Again if you had an opportunity to kill Hitler when he was young would you? Now imagine an entire planet of people like that, save one family.. what would you do then?

And also what makes you think any of the people who died in the flood are "innocent?" The only account of that event is in scripture and scripture tells us they were all corrupt (more like animals than people.)

 

[EGoldstein]

"souls and plug them into another life at a later time?"

So you're Buddhist too?

"You mentioned God killing Hitler as a child"

I did not, reread my post. The point I was trying to make is that if god is willing to mercilessly kill the entire planets population (save Noah's) for probably nothing more than not worshiping him or having homosexual relationships, why would he not stop Hitler right before he did the awful things he did. That does not seem very consistent.

God doesn't torture those who do not wish to worship Him. We are simply given a choice to live with God, and all that he has created for us for eternity, or to Be sent somewhere completely devoid of God (Which includes all of His creation)

Yes, God does torture those who do not worship him, have you even read your bible? Why does the choice of such a good and just being as god have to be either eternal happiness or eternal torture? God has the ability to not send you to hell; he made the rules (according to christians). Ok, so heaven is a club for only the ones who bent over backward for god in life, but why not allow those who didn't believe stay in a condition other that of burning hell fire? Is god so petty and cruel? I have a child, if when they get older they yell and scream that they hate me and never want to see me again and leave the house never to return; I would still love them. If I followed god's example, when I saw them next I would tie them up and beat them till they were almost dead but let them stay alive. I would repeat the process until they died of old age. That is what god does, he is mad because someone doesn't like him (but supposedly he loves us all like his children regardless) and does what any rational parent would do, torture us for eternity.

 

[drich0150]

So you're Buddhist too?

My mother was, maybe some of it wore off on me, or perhaps I thought it would be easier for someone tied to their own sense of righteousness to understand a different type of mercy outside of their own Idea of who or what God maybe for them.

for probably nothing more than not worshiping him or having homosexual relationships

Maybe my bible isn't the only one that needs to be read..
Genesis 6:


1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. 11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.



Sons of the Lord and daughters of man can be interpreted angels or demons having human female wives. nephilim were the result "Titans" or warrior giants.. As you can see there isn't any gay bashing here.. God destroyed an entire planet of Hitler's and Nazi SS "Supermen"

Why does the choice of such a good and just being as god have to be either eternal happiness or eternal torture?

Would you prefer a heaven with God, and one without? So that all who choose to be with God can do so, but all who choose to be with out God can also do so in the comfort of paradise?

What if the descriptions of Heaven and Hell Got mixed up somewhere back in time, and Heaven (where God lives) was a fiery pit, and hell was paradise, but without the presents of God? Would you still want to goto Heaven (Where God Lives?)

Heaven is far and beyond a description. It is a place where all those who seek God can be with him. Those who seek "Heaven" for the sake of avoiding Hell are not worthy of it. So for them and all who do not want to be with God (Because God is omnipresent in all of His creation) The void or the pit is the only place they can go to be away from God.. The void isn't a realm where Satan rules, it is simply a great nothingness where Satan and the rest of creation who chooses to be away from God get to spend their eternity.

have a child, if when they get older they yell and scream that they hate me and never want to see me again and leave the house never to return; I would still love them. If I followed god's example, when I saw them next I would tie them up and beat them till they were almost dead but let them stay alive.

God has many Children and if He were to follow your example, After one of His children declare their Hatred for their Father, He would have to drag that child kicking and screaming into His presents for the rest of eternity.. (Because God's presents is evident in all of creation) The "Void" Not medieval Hell is where all who do not want to be with God go, Because it is the only place He is Not.. God sending someone to the Void is God Being loving enough to Give that child what he wants.. Eternal seperation from God. (no matter how much He loves them.)

That is what god does, he is mad because someone doesn't like him

Perhaps "we" (those who refuse to know God) are the ones that are mad, because we love our will and want to live our lives as "we" see fit, rather than humbling ourselves to the Lord, and living for Him...

 

[EGoldstein]

What bible do you read? The one I have read clearly teaches that hell is painful like a lake of fire is painful. Why would God do that, lets assume your version of hell is right, that it is just a void where god does not exist. Earth kind of seems like your hell. If god is here he does not make his presence known. Your making it seem like god can not control what heaven or hell is like? If he is so good and great and loving, he would allows those who didn't believe in him in life avoid eternal torment. Even if they are sent somewhere devoid of god, god could let it be lesser than heaven but not torture like hell. Your making it seem as though god would like non believers to not suffer but he just can't do anything about it.

 

[aiki]

What bible do you read? The one I have read clearly teaches that hell is painful like a lake of fire is painful. Why would God do that, lets assume your version of hell is right, that it is just a void where god does not exist. Earth kind of seems like your hell. If god is here he does not make his presence known.

Ah, but God does make His presence known. The millions of Christians who have lived and who are now living around the world are a testament to that.

Your making it seem like god can not control what heaven or hell is like? If he is so good and great and loving, he would allows those who didn't believe in him in life avoid eternal torment.

Oh? Why is that? (I mean apart from being wonderfully convenient for those who choose to disbelieve God.)

You seem to think that disbelieving God is no big deal. Obviously, God has a different view. That God is willing to punish eternally those who reject Him illustrates just how serious an offense it is to turn one's back on God. Apparently, God thinks faithlessness toward Him is so awful it deserves the punishment of Hell.

Even if they are sent somewhere devoid of god, god could let it be lesser than heaven but not torture like hell.

He could've, but He didn't. As I said, God has decided that the offense that an unbeliever's life is to Him is so foul, so evil, that it deserves the torture of Hell. Since we humans don't understand very well who it is against whom we sin, and since we always tend to diminish the wretchedness of our own conduct, we think God is over-reacting when He sends people to Hell. But this is a problem with us, not with Him.

Your making it seem as though god would like non believers to not suffer but he just can't do anything about it.

But He has done something about it! God sent us His only Son, Jesus Christ, to receive the punishment for our sins on our behalf. Through Christ the way of escape from Hell is open to all.

Peace to you.

 

[aiki]

Just because there are millions and, in fact, billions of christians in the world does not verify their belief that God exists.

What does it do, then? If millions of people are convinced that they experience God every day, if they can point to His involvement over and over again in their lives, if they can see Him in the nature of the cosmos and reflected in their own capacities to love, dream, moralize, and laugh, what do you say? Their belief in God certainly doesn't verify that He doesn't exist!

Gods of the past and present alike punish those that do not worship them and make sacrifices for them. But you don't get punished by Osiris or Zeus, nor are you afraid of them.

Yes, and so?

I would say very much it is a problem with him, not us, in regard to hell. If he [God] has such a problem with non-believers, wouldn't it be logical to make more of an effort to convert them. Rather, he just goes around punishing and sentencing. He doesn't try, and he punishes people for his shortcomings.

The whole of the Bible is taken up with God's efforts to redeem sin-corrupted people from the consequences of their sin. In the Bible we see God most certainly has "made an effort" - even going so far as to be crucified at the hands of the creatures He had made, which is far more "effort" than any of us deserve!

You have a caricature, a straw-man version of God that you have presented here. Why is this always the case with anti-theists? Your myopia, when it comes to God, serves only to justify in your own mind your prejudice against Him. It doesn't strengthen your arguments with those who know Him better, I can assure you.

Why go through all that trouble? Why not, as an all-powerful being, just get rid of sin alltogether?

All in due time, as the Bible tells us.

And, (this question begs to be asked), if Jesus's sacrifice worked, why is there still sin?

Jesus' sacrifice wasn't made to rid the world of sin, but to rid sinners of the eternal punishment of their sin and to break the power of sin in the lives of those who trust in Christ as their Saviour.

Peace to you.

 

[drich0150]

Why would God do that, lets assume your version of hell is right, that it is just a void where god does not exist.

"Fire and brimstone" are used to describe Hell because that was the closest thing the writers had to describe what it is like to be consumed by nothingness. You are not set on literal fire, but you have a similar response, there is an emotion associated with being consumed by fire, to label it panic, or fear would not do it justice, just like the calling experience of being consumed by the void, being thrown into a lake of fire.. But as it is, Panic and fear are the only words I have to describe that type of emotion. Whether you are set a blaze or if you are merely consumed by the void, your emotional response will be the same.

Earth kind of seems like your hell. If god is here he does not make his presence known.

Perhaps not known, to those who do not known know him.

Your making it seem like god can not control what heaven or hell is like?

Heaven is apart of creation, so God is in control, because he is in control of all of what he has created.. Hell is the absents of God's presents, so it is a place without God, or any of what he has created.. Again, under God's complete control (He chooses not to be in that place..) Either you choose to be apart of creation or you do not. If you do not, you are free to spend your time away from God.

Even if they are sent somewhere devoid of god, god could let it be lesser than heaven but not torture like hell.

I think your missing the point of the seperation.. If you are in the presents of any part of Creation you are in the presents of the Lord. God is omnipresent in all of creation. So if He Builds a "non believers heaven" Then in fact the non believers will still be in the presents of the Lord..

Where is the so call righteousness of God, if you spend all of this life trying to shoot holes in theology, in order to place as much distance between yourself and the lord as you possibly can, just to be dragged in front of Him for the rest of eternity? How is this Just? How does not respecting your wishes reflect true love? How is forcing you to endure an eternity of what you hate, anything but spite? (You can't say you hate hell because you've never experienced it, you can fear hell or hate the Idea of hell, but it is not the same..) The reason Hell is called the void is because it is devoid of God or any of what he has created.

Your making it seem as though god would like non believers to not suffer but he just can't do anything about it.

He has given us the opportunity to avoid Hell through the blood and sacrifice of Jesus, outside of that He will be interfering with "free will." He does not want that any should suffer, but all to come to Jesus and find their own salvation.. Because if your going to live out eternity as a member of creation you must acknowledge, respect and Love the creator, otherwise you will have chosen to spend the rest of eternity with those of similar thoughts.

It's pretty black or white, Choose God, or choose your own way. If you choose your own way then all you take with you is what you can conjure out of nothing, Just as God has.. If you choose to benefit from what He can provide then He deserves our Love and respect..

 

[visionary]

Man makes choices, God allows. Mankind does not understand the devistation, distruction, and destroying power of sin, so God allows it to go its course. Where God is in control, is in the education of mankind, to never want sin to enter into the world again. But some hard headed folk never learn. God will resurrect those who are innocent to an eternal life with Him. He is more than fair and just in His judgements. Trust Him. He knows what He is doing. Sin will not raise its ugly head again, when He is finished. All questions will be answered then.

 

[aiki]

God would have know all of this would be happening, since he is omnipotent.

I think you mean omniscient.

So, he would know what would become of his creations, and what would eventually lead to the whole crucifixtion thing. That means that god let it all pan out, so he could ride in as the shining hero and win the croud. God's a dick.

Wow. How would you know what God's motives actually are? You can no more figure that out than an ant can figure out nuclear physics.

Seems God's awesomeness has got you all you bent out of shape. Maybe you should take a few deep breaths and try to formulate something more intelligent by way of a response than name calling. At the moment you sound like an angry 8 year old.

Peace to you.

 

[EGoldstein]

God's a dick.

Yep, well the one described in the bible is anyway.

At the moment you sound like an angry 8 year old.

How is anything said by Finneus not true. 'God' knows EVERYTHING that has happened, that will happen, and that is happening. He would have known trillions upon trillions of years before he created man that nearly all of humanity would fail his completely just and fair standards, that we would implore logical thinking skills, that we would recognize his plan of salvation as some really lame action/drama that skipped theatres and went straight to DVD. Yet STILL he creates man, knowing full well that we will have to end up suffering (dont give me that free will crap, free will is impossible in a world with a god that knows everything we are going to do before we do it). For the love of all things good in the world, god sends himself as his son to earth in human form, allows himself to be killed, resurrects himself three days later, and then floats up to heaven on a cloud. This was all done so that god could allow us the chance to be in heaven with him. This all seems a bit unneccesary for a being who could do anything with a mere thought, it seems more like what it is, a story concocted by man. I will end my post with a quote by Epicurus :
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Probably nothing new here. God requires kindness of us. He requires people to be loving. To heal hurts, to mend broken relationships, to help the poor and forgotten. He however has a bit of a temper if people refuse to surrender to his kindness toward us, which is offered to all men. We are all offered free salvation, a salvation which does not require us to work for it, but is given freely. All men and women can have a relationship with God. But the bible says if we continually reject God, and become vessles of his wrath, he will make his great wrath known to us. Which is the fire and brimstone hell, it is not just a void. He wants love, but can show wrath. The fact to consider is not is God just (according to our reasoning), but God is needing us to be just, to avoid his wrath. If we are smart we just need to live justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before God.

Some one also complained that God never does any thing to prove himself. This is just not true. Note the following true stories from my life:

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

Some time after the second Gulf War an Australian man Douglas Wood was captured by terrorists in Iraq, who made demands for a ransom or he would be executed. I set about fasting and praying for his release, I said to God "You know where he is....tell me". Three words entered my mind ABC, Bizaar and "A-meal". I thought "I am going crazy what has all that got to do with him. Bizaar I though "this is Bizarre". I thought maybe "A-meal" is a town so I searched a map of Iraq for a town of that name, but found nothing that really matched. Some time latter Douglas Wood was freed by US troops who came across his captors. It was not until latter that I actually discovered what the three words meant. I was on a forum libertyunites.us and came across a post by a user called ABC in the post she appealed to the captors to release Douglas Wood because he had gone to a/or the Bazaar and bought food for homeless people and had provided them with "A-meal". I believe God saw this action too and blessed Douglas Wood with an escape from his captors.

One time I thought about suing some one but felt bad about it because I did not want to give a bad impression about what a Christian is like. SO I prayed and asked God to show me clearly what to do. Latter that day I opened my bible at random, selecting a random verse and it opened to 1Co 6:7 "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?" So I knew what God was thinking, no lawsuit.

At one point in my life I was praying for scientific cures for illnesses like cancer. Because I was on a science kick I thought would it not be fun to create a real life dinosaur. I wanted Jesus just for fun to show me how to create a Real Live Dinosaur, he can show us anything you know if he wants, but when I asked him how to start recreating a Dinosaur. Jesus spoke into my head the sentence "I bood", it entered my mind when I was awake, a term I had never heard before. I decided to look it up on the Internet and I found out the following: You see, the children of Semai are taught from an early age, the concept of "bood." If a parent asks a child to do something and the child replies "I bood," in other words, "I don't feel like doing that," the matter is closed. Bood means gently No.

One day I was witnessing to a Muslim and he asked me why we ate pork. I used the verse out of the bible which says "It is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth". After some general discussion I finished for the night. I asked God to give me a verse from the bible to encourage me. I opened the bible at random and selected a random verse. It opened to the exact same verse that I had used with the Muslim. The one about food not defiling. So I knew that God was approving of what I had been talking about.
"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him "unclean.'"- Mat 15:11

 

[aiki]

I think it says nothing good about the two of you, Finneus and EGoldstein, that you come on a Christian website and use offensive terms in referring to the God the Christians on this website love. You may not understand Him or agree with the fidelity Christians show their Maker, but this does not relieve you of the obligation of common courtesy and respect. That you two obviously think it does suggests some very unflattering things about you both.

How is anything said by Finneus not true. 'God' knows EVERYTHING that has happened, that will happen, and that is happening. He would have known trillions upon trillions of years before he created man that nearly all of humanity would fail his completely just and fair standards, that we would implore logical thinking skills, that we would recognize his plan of salvation as some really lame action/drama that skipped theatres and went straight to DVD.

Millions of Christians do not see God and His plan for mankind as you've described above. In fact, they think the story of the Gospel is the greatest story ever told. And they are thrilled and overwhelmed by the mercy and love God has shown in doing as He did when He knew there would people like you who despise Him.

Yet STILL he creates man, knowing full well that we will have to end up suffering (dont give me that free will crap, free will is impossible in a world with a god that knows everything we are going to do before we do it).

Foreknowledge does not preclude free choice. If I see a cat licking itself I know that the end result will eventually be a hairball that must be coughed up. But my knowledge of what will happen to the cat does not preclude the cat from choosing to lick itself or mean that I caused the cat to lick itself.

For the love of all things good in the world, god sends himself as his son to earth in human form, allows himself to be killed, resurrects himself three days later, and then floats up to heaven on a cloud. This was all done so that god could allow us the chance to be in heaven with him. This all seems a bit unneccesary for a being who could do anything with a mere thought, it seems more like what it is, a story concocted by man.

Well, other very thoughtful people completely disagree with you. I think, at least in your case, you see what you want to see. Personally, I don't think any human could've manufactured the "story" of God's redemption of sinners.

I will end my post with a quote by Epicurus :
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

William Lane Craig, a prominent Christian apologist, gives a very detailed philosophical/biblical response to this quotation. If you really want to hear such a response check out his website:

Reasonable Faith:

Peace to you.