God's Morals?

[drich0150]

I did not come to this site to insult, even though I find myself doing this very thing frequently. I came here to invoke free thought. I want you guys to question everything, especially your most deeply held beliefs.

And, in regards to EGoldstein, if free will could have possibly existed in a Universe populated by god, it wouldn't have been he who gave it to us, but Satan.

It's true.

Your question everything bit is my personal motto, and it is something I try and encourage others to do.. These are some of the things I have found:

But first, Just a few definitions and comments so that we both know what I speak of when I use these commonly misunderstood terms.

Sin, Anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil, Malicious intent to commit Sin.

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin.

All sin, evil or not, because of the true nature of righteousness deserves Death.

Freewill Is the ability to choose, do or think of something not in the will of God.

If we chose something in God's will, then we would in fact be in God's will and not in our own.. So to exercise freewill is to sin..

Why would God place us in a position to sin? Because He wants us to choose to be with Him.. In order for their to be a legitimate decision their needs to be an actual choice, or at the very least, the ability to choose..

Unfortunately in order for us to be given this choice we automatically disqualify ourselves from the ability to be with God. Unless something pure or without sin, pays for something unclean or someone sinful.. This principle was established in the Jewish covenant, through animal sacrifices. And, later made perfect through the sacrifice of Jesus. So once and for all, that any who seek God will be able to find him..

So why does we want us to choose and not simply let all into heaven??

Somewhere between the beginning of creation and the fall of Man He did this very thing. In the angels he populated heaven with.. Even knowing exactly who God was and all that He had to offer, a large portion of them did not want to be with Him, and risked literal Hell to get away from him..

He could have just assigned all those He knew to be righteous a place in Heaven and all those who would not want to be with him a place in Hell.. But if you were one of those placed in Hell a split second after being created would you cry out for justice? Mercy or even a simple chance to prove to God and yourself that you would in fact choose him?

So, Because He is truly a righteous God He has given us this life to prove to ourselves where we'd like to spend eternity, rather than simply assigning us there without a chance for us to know for ourselves. He has given us the right and ability to choose (through the blood of Jesus) for ourselves our own eternal fate.

So free will, is a very costly gift from God. (Not satan) For the purpose and exercise of true Godly righteousness.. Also know, Satan is not the ruler of sin. He's just very good at it, and even better at using our own pride, and our own sense of puffed up importance to heard some of us into organized groups of "religiously practiced unbelievers." Having some of us use, the very same core elements of Faith, Belief, and submission in the non believers religion, as all of those who worship the one and True God. And yet He is able to keep all of this hidden from them, by placing it behind the pride of there own "intelligence.." This is your gift from Satan, not free will.. unfortunately this is also one that many believers also share. (those who do not question but blindly believe for an entire life time traditions and doctrines, as if they were the will of God..)

So this is why I do advocate your underling statement of questioning all things. This is also a bible verse 1 Thess 5:21. I openly invite you to do the same, but this time do not stop where you religious leaders or professors tell you to, continue to look, past ever changing "facts" past inconclusive theories, past the "doctrines" you hold dear, and ask yourself: Why do I believe in ever changing facts and regard them as truth? If Christianity were constructed the same way, what would be some of the things I would question? then apply them to your system of belief, and also ask some of your peers these questions see what they have to say.

Know Your "statement" is a double edged sword. (it cuts both ways.) and you will be held accountable using your own system of core beliefs and faith. It's better to hear this from me for the first time than on the day of your judgment.

 

[aiki]

I did not come to this site to insult, even though I find myself doing this very thing frequently. I came here to invoke free thought. I want you guys to question everything, especially your most deeply held beliefs.

The arrogance in this statement and the incredible assumptions you're making in forming it are astonishing! You came here to "invoke free thought"? No one here is prevented from "free thought" by being here. People think as they please on this site - as your posts illustrate. And what makes you think we Christians haven't questioned our "most deeply held beliefs"? At least in the culture in which I live, my faith is increasingly under fire. My stint at university also profoundly assaulted my faith. But, here I am, still a believer, in spite of folk like you who think they have a corner on intelligence, logical thought, and the capacity to question and who act on these arrogant assumptions by obnoxiously attacking my faith. I know what I believe and why I believe it and have asked questions of God that cut far deeper than the merely intellectual/philosophical stuff in which you dabble.

Do yourself - and us - a favor and drop the belief that you are some missionary of atheistic enlightenment venturing among the ignorant, superstitious Christians to show them the "light of truth." At least for those of us who frequent this and similar forums on this site, your "probing questions" have been asked a hundred times before and answered ad nauseum.

And, in regards to EGoldstein, if free will could have possibly existed in a Universe populated by god, it wouldn't have been he who gave it to us, but Satan.

It's true.

It suggests a general weakness of your "position" that you never actually address the points people make in their responses to your "questions". You have a "hit and run" style of posting that seems designed only to make anti-Christian assertions rather than frame a reasonable, alternative worldview. As in the instance above, you simply make a statement, and tell us its true, and expect us to believe it. You certainly don't accept that kind of response from us, so why should we accept it from you?!

If you want people to listen to and consider what you're saying, I'd suggest according them the same courtesy. Just a thought.

 

[drich0150]

But, choosing to be with God is an act of free will and, by your definition, deserving of damnation.

Enter Jesus, and the blood sacrifice absolving us of those sins (Created by the exercise of free will...)

 

[drich0150]

But, again in that choice, For those who choose, they have forgiveness, because of the Blood that was shed.. Something/Someone "clean" or without sin making the sacrifice for someone in sin... When the sacrifice was made, the sins were all washed away.. leaving only the intent or desire to be with God.

This allows you to "choose" and yet still be "righteous" before the Lord. Not because of your works but because of the works of Jesus, and your desire to be with God.

 

[EGoldstein]

"Note the following true stories from my life:"

Thank you so much for posting these true stories from your life, I wasn't having the greatest day but reading them made me feel so much better. Its god talking when a group of people can hear the voice, if its just you hearing the voice you should consider seeing a psychologist. Google "Schizophrenia".

"I think it says nothing good about the two of you, Finneus and EGoldstein, that you come on a Christian website and use offensive terms in referring to the God the Christians on this website love."

I think it says nothing good about you or anyone with your beliefs to love a being who has directly caused or advocated the death of innocent women (except virgin girls, they get to be raped see Numbers 31) and children. I came here because I have never received a considered answer to any of my questions from a christian. In a nutshell every answer I ever get is "If god does it its cool with me, he gets a pass for genocides and bigotry."

"If I see a cat licking itself I know that the end result will eventually be a hairball that must be coughed up. But my knowledge of what will happen to the cat does not preclude the cat from choosing to lick itself or mean that I caused the cat to lick itself."

You are not describing omniscience, you are describing the observation of cause and effect. Anyone would know that the cat would eventually have a hairball from licking itself. An omniscient god would have known when the cat would lick itself and for how long trillions of years before the cat's existence.

"Personally, I don't think any human could've manufactured the "story" of God's redemption of sinners."

Really? What is so incredible about the story? It sounds like something a 10 year old with ADHD would write.
"Evil, Malicious intent to commit Sin."
I always thought evil was rape, murder, bigotry or any other such thing but I could have missed that day in life.

 

[aiki]

I think it says nothing good about you or anyone with your beliefs to love a being who has directly caused or advocated the death of innocent women (except virgin girls, they get to be raped see Numbers 31) and children. I came here because I have never received a considered answer to any of my questions from a christian. In a nutshell every answer I ever get is "If god does it its cool with me, he gets a pass for genocides and bigotry."

Most of your problem is that you refuse to let God be God. You seem to want Him to be answerable to you, rather than the other way 'round; you want the infinite answerable to the finite, the sinless assessed by the sinner. From where I stand, this seems obviously bizarre and impossible. You would have a dust mite render a verdict on the universe! But neither you nor the dust mite have the capacity to judge what is so vastly beyond you. You aren't powerful enough, you don't know enough, and you don't have the quality of character necessary for it (just like the rest of us).

The God you are holding up to condemnation is a caricature, a strawman, of the real thing. You have carefully avoided taking into account all that the Bible reveals to us about God. Instead, you have lighted upon those things in Scripture that seem to play to your antagonism toward the Creator and are magnifying and warping them to cartoonish proportions. In so doing, you are exposing a deep prejudice toward the God of the Bible that is irrational, and unreasonable, and that is determined to refuse any defense of Him. Who would want to spend the time and effort responding to your assertions and questions when you are so plainly poised to dismiss out-of-hand whatever responses may come?

However, in case there is some small part of you that can hear above the roar of your hatred of God, I will give a brief explanation of God's judgment upon the wicked in the Old Testament.

1. God is holy. He is "light" the Bible says, and "in Him is no darkness at all." (1 Jn. 1:5) It is not possible for we humans who are so acquainted and comfortable with sin to fully understand God's holiness. But we get a glimpse of how antithetical God is to sin, how absolutely opposed to it He is, by how God judges sin in the OT. Whether it was His own Chosen People, the Israelites, God was judging, or the pagan nations surrounding them, God judged sin by destroying it "root, tree, and branch." God gave no quarter to sin, not one inch, and He commanded His people to do the same. His perfect holiness demanded complete destruction of sin, which we see as "harsh" because we are so steeped in sin ourselves.

2. Those whom God so harshly judged were guilty. Scripture gives us to understand that the pagan nations whom God set His people to destroy were guilty of idolatry, human sacrifice, sexual perversion, and violence toward God's people (among other things). The wickedness of these nations was a cultural thing, not isolated to a few "bad apples." Like cannibalism in some tribal cultures, everybody got involved - men, women and children.

3. The pagan nations at enmity with Israel understood that opposition to Israel was tantamount to opposition to their God. To fight Israel was to defy Yahweh. In a very direct way, God Himself was challenged and attacked when the Midianites, or the Philistines, or the Amalekites, or whoever assaulted God's people. Such outright defiance of, and rebellion toward, the Creator is at the heart of what makes sin, sin. God could not be holy and let such wicked defiance go unanswered.

4. God was setting an example for us to follow today. The pagan nations are representative of sin in the life of a Christian. Just as God zealously judged and wiped out the sinful nations of the OT, the Christian is to do the same with sin in his/her own life. No quarter must be given to sin, for where accommodation is made for it, sin will grow - just as it did among the Israelites when they embraced (literally and figuratively) the pagan peoples and their ways which God had commanded them to reject.

5. God can do whatever He wants, however He wants. This is, in part, what it means to be God. To be the Creator of Everything means you are answerable to no one and can do as you please with what you've made. Naturally, the idea that there is Someone who has carte blanche to do as He wishes with us humans makes some of us very uneasy - especially those who see God as some cartoonish monster raping and pillaging the world. The real God, while perfectly holy and a terror to unrepentant sinners, is also merciful, compassionate, and loving to those who acknowledge Him as their God and live in happy fellowship with Him. He is found to be a kind Heavenly Father who is concerned about every part of one's life and freely giving of His power, peace, and love.

May you come to know Him someday.

You are not describing omniscience, you are describing the observation of cause and effect. Anyone would know that the cat would eventually have a hairball from licking itself. An omniscient god would have known when the cat would lick itself and for how long trillions of years before the cat's existence.

And so? How does that foreknowledge directly affect the cats decision to lick itself? Knowing a thing and causing it are not the same thing.

Really? What is so incredible about the story? It sounds like something a 10 year old with ADHD would write.
"Evil, Malicious intent to commit Sin."
I always thought evil was rape, murder, bigotry or any other such thing but I could have missed that day in life.

I guess the story is only incredible to those who understand it (like so many other instances in life). Your opinion of the authorship of the Bible disagrees sharply with the opinion of some of the world's greatest scholars - secular and Christian. I'd take their learned opinion over your bitter, angry one any day.

Peace.

 

[EGoldstein]

I do not have enough time to respond as fully as I want to right now, but I want to make a quick comment.

You have carefully avoided taking into account all that the Bible reveals to us about God.

Hitler was good to the German people, does this give him a pass for the genocide he caused? Oh but I forgot we are talking about god after all, he needs not hold himself to the moral standards he put forth in his word for us to follow. This is like a parent telling his/her child to not swear while they themselves swear all the time. I thought Jesus preached against hypocrisy?

 

[aiki]

Hitler was good to the German people, does this give him a pass for the genocide he caused? Oh but I forgot we are talking about god after all, he needs not hold himself to the moral standards he put forth in his word for us to follow. This is like a parent telling his/her child to not swear while they themselves swear all the time. I thought Jesus preached against hypocrisy?

Ah, but, as you say, the rules are for us, not for Him.

You can't compare to any great degree the relationship of a human parent and child to that of one's relationship to one's Maker. There are only very superficial similarities between the two kinds of relationships. Perhaps the most obvious problem with the comparison is that the parent and child are of the same kind. Both are human and share a more or less identical nature and existence. Not so God; He is not of a kind with us at all. In every respect save our wickedness, He is incomparably greater than us.

But, God does lead by example. He commands us to love one another and showed us how by sacrificially dying on a cross for those who hated Him (and still hate Him). He tells us to live righteously, to despise sin and cherish holiness, and illustrates how through His terrible judgment of the wicked in the Old Testament and the perfect life lived by His only Son, Jesus Christ, in the New Testament. He instructs us to live patiently and demonstrates how by suffering long the spite and malice of the wicked every day. God is no hypocrite.

Peace.

 

[drich0150]

Well, what 'example' is he trying to set for us by drowning the entire planet? Or by sending us to hell?

1) God does not send us to Hell. We choose Hell as apposed to spending an eternity with him.. For example How Loving would the God you Hate Be if He force you to be with Him Given all of your objections to His morality? Wouldn't you much rather be away from someone Like that?

2) In Exodus 20:13 We are told You Shall Not Murder, not you shall not kill. Either way the emphasis here is YOU.. Because You or we do not hold the Germ of life in our Hands. Life is more than this mortal body, True life in contained in our souls. Which brings us back as to why we were given this life in the first place... We are given this life to prove to ourselves where we would choose to spend eternity.. Noah's generation was so far beyond simply choosing their eternal fate, true righteousness would not allow them have any more time here in this life..

 

[aiki]

Well, what 'example' is he trying to set for us by drowning the entire planet? Or by sending us to hell?

Example? You haven't been reading what I wrote, have you?

God caused the Flood because "every man did that which was right in his own eyes" and because "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen. 6:5) Remember what I wrote about a holy God despising evil?

God has decreed that sin always results in separation and death. "For the wages of sin is death..." the Bible says. (Ro. 6:23) Hell is the final, eternal end of a sinner's willful defiance of God. It demonstrates the truth of God's word and illustrates through its awfulness the grave wretchedness of our sin.

Peace.

 

[EGoldstein]

God does not send us to Hell. We choose Hell as apposed to spending an eternity with him

You either know this is BS or you have deluded yourself. God created hell, he is the 'judge' who decides where we will spend eternity, he could easily not send anyone to hell. And please, stop trying to twist hell into a way that god is trying to be loving or kind to non believers; again, you either know this is BS or you are deluded. God is supposedly everywhere (except hell according to you) which would mean he is here on earth, but I am still perfectly happy just like plenty of other non believers. Why then would heaven be different? Could he not just section off a piece of heaven that's not as 'awesome' as the rest of it for non believers? Why does it have to be hell? Only a cruel, petty, egotistical maniac would allow someone to suffer for ETERNITY simply because they didn't believe in or agree with him. It's absurd.

Hell is the final, eternal end of a sinner's willful defiance of God. It demonstrates the truth of God's word and illustrates through its awfulness the grave wretchedness of our sin.

But God is supposed to love all men and does not wish any of them would go to hell. Why then does he do it anyway, he has the power to not do it. Why couldn't he show me or Finneus or anyone else that we are mistaken and then send us somewhere that isn't hell? Also, if there is a god and it is ANYTHING like the god in the bible, well then I would rather burn in hell. It would be less moral to wind up in heaven than to go to hell. If you went to heaven that meant you spent your life being a bigoted person who worshiped and loved a monster far worse than anything the worst person has EVER done.

 

[salida]

God is holy and those children would have grown up to be like their parents still rebelling against God that were killed. God doesn't make mistakes but mankind does. Mankind caused the fallen nature that we now have. Also, God does not override free will. In the Old Testament the killing was done to protect Israel against pagans. The most wicked were the Caanites (spelling) as they put the new born on a flame to sacrafice to a god that didn't exist. God used Israel as a nation for His glory and Gods morals are perfect and consistant. Man without God bases his morals on whatever the culture is at that time which changes all the time. There are social laws, divine laws, the law of gravity, etc. that don't change. Its interesting how is it ok to change social and moral laws all the time for our convenience. The law of gravity doesn't change all the time - it would be a disaster if it did. In addition, its a disaster when ones culture keeps morally getting worse and worse - yes a disaster. Rome fell because of moral decay and that goes for any country.

 

[aiki]

But God is supposed to love all men and does not wish any of them would go to hell. Why then does he do it anyway, he has the power to not do it. Why couldn't he show me or Finneus or anyone else that we are mistaken and then send us somewhere that isn't hell?

God's love does not override every other aspect of His character. It is God's holiness, not His love, that is the preeminent quality of His person. Certainly, God does not wish anyone to perish in Hell, and He has made a way for everyone to escape such a fate, but sinners who refuse God's loving attempt to rescue them from themselves will meet with His awful, holy wrath.

C.S. Lewis has written that "the door to Hell is locked from the inside." By that he means that men choose their eternal death and separation from God, it is not thrust upon them undeserved. They live lives that reject God and defy His commands, revealing in all they do a desire to be separate from their Maker. In death, God gives them what they have lived their whole lives striving to obtain: complete independence from Him. God has warned generation after generation of people that such independence will be a torment, but there are still those like yourself who deny it will be so.

Also, if there is a god and it is ANYTHING like the god in the bible, well then I would rather burn in hell. It would be less moral to wind up in heaven than to go to hell. If you went to heaven that meant you spent your life being a bigoted person who worshiped and loved a monster far worse than anything the worst person has EVER done.

A "monster," eh? A terror, perhaps, to the wicked, but not a monster.

If God was a monster, why did He save Noah and his family? Because Noah was a righteous man living among the wicked. Surely a monster would have killed everyone, good and bad, making no distinction at all, but this isn't what God does. No, He saves, not only Noah and his family, but preserves species of animals with which to repopulate the earth. He protects Noah and his kin in the Ark and eventually restores the earth to its former state. I should think a monster would behave rather differently...

How about the Israelites? God enables them to escape their oppressive captivity under the Egyptians. He leads them out of Egypt and through the desert to Canaan protecting and strengthening them against marauding nations, feeding them daily with manna, even making their shoes more durable. This doesn't sound like the conduct of a monster to me...I would think a monster would do the reverse: He would keep the Israelites miserable and oppressed; He would kill all the Egyptian firstborn for no reason at all; He would burn Moses in a bush rather than simply speaking to him from one, and so on.

Over and over again through the Scriptures God is seen to punish the wicked and bless the righteous. He goes beyond, however, and reaches out to the wicked with the offer of reconciliation to Himself. He doesn't show only holiness and justice, but also love and mercy. What is monstrous about paying the penalty for the guilty? What is monstrous about saving the weak from themselves? What is monstrous about blessing the undeserving? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Peace.

 

[drich0150]

You either know this is BS or you have deluded yourself. God created hell, he is the 'judge' who decides where we will spend eternity, he could easily not send anyone to hell. And please, stop trying to twist hell into a way that god is trying to be loving or kind to non believers; again, you either know this is BS or you are deluded.

The only delusion or BS here is your efforts in to trying to get us to help you place God in the little box you have created for him. This is evident in your comments and level of distress you record when your confronted to a "truth" outside of what you have accepted for your own brand of righteousness.. It's funny because "we" are known, or at least it's been spun to suggest that christians are the close minded ones.

Does the true definition and responsibility of "Free Will" frighten you to point of closing your mind to anything you haven't concluded for yourself??

Then why not explore these ideas? Why must you question the sanity of the mind that brings you something that you may be unfamiliar with? Are you here for the truth? or are you here, to try and reinforce what it is you think, or what it is you have been taught to think?

Why then would heaven be different?

Although his presents is among us, most of us are unaware of it. That again is apart of the point to this life. After this life our eyes will be open, and our ears made to hear. We will know God and be aware of Him where ever we are.

Could he not just section off a piece of heaven that's not as 'awesome' as the rest of it for non believers?

So you would have a loving God place you as a non believer in a state of mental deficiency for all of eternity? Because the believers minds will be awakened to all of God's Majesty, and all of the rest of creation..
Pardon me for saying, but isn't that like forcing a person who decided when he was a little boy, that he wanted to be in kindergarten the rest of his life, by preventing any further mental development?

There is no doubt, at the time he was supposed to be in kindergarten he may have thought that it was all "awesome" but even a simple minded child could understand that when all of his friends, or even when just his other class mates moved on, that he is missing out on something.. This life/this mind is our kindergarten, why would you want to remain when the rest of us leave?

Why does it have to be hell?

After our awaking, there is no turning back.. Jesus tells us the He who is responsible with very little will be responsible with much.. This life, is our version of very little. If "we" do not want more from God then, like those who truly do, we shall have what our hearts want..

It's like having a relative win the lottery, if you didn't spend anytime with that person when they had nothing, but find yourself wanting to spend every waking moment with them afterward, whether you know it or not it is not the relative you love, it's his money, and what that money means to you.

Like wise after your waken, and you see the riches of God will you all of a sudden "love Him" or what he has to offer?

What if your the one that came into alot of money? Would you surround yourself with the gold diggers that come out of the wood work? or those who actually love you?

And again "Hell" is the only place for those who prove to love themselves and their own sense of righteousness over that of God, or his righteousness can be sent. So they can truly be with that which they love the most...

 

[drich0150]

You know, a surprising ammount of people today think that Israel was given to the Israeli people by god. This is simply not true. Any educated person knows that when the British Mandate over Palestine ended, Israel was quick to scoop up as much land as it could. Of course, the countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt didn't want them to be their own state, so Israel was attacked several times, each time winning out and gaining more land.

God had nothing to do with it.

What other country's people has stayed unified as a people even without the land that defines the very nature of what a country is, for nearly 2000 years after the land has been taken?

Can you name one other?

What do you think unified these people even when they didn't have common ground?

Whether you believe or not, you have to acknowledge "God" (If you are seriously looking the Jewish people) as a big part of the the reason they stayed together.

So without the the people, there would be no one "to scoop up" the country or land.

 

[AgnosticAtheistMike]

Wow. How would you know what God's motives actually are?

Did God come to you in your dreams and tell you what his motives are? If not, why are you asking that question in such a way that makes it seem as if you know the answer when you are just as much at a loss as the nonbelievers?

 

[AgnosticAtheistMike]

A "monster," eh? A terror, perhaps, to the wicked, but not a monster.

If God was a monster, why did He save Noah and his family? Because Noah was a righteous man living among the wicked. Surely a monster would have killed everyone, good and bad, making no distinction at all, but this isn't what God does. No, He saves, not only Noah and his family, but preserves species of animals with which to repopulate the earth. He protects Noah and his kin in the Ark and eventually restores the earth to its former state. I should think a monster would behave rather differently...

How about the Israelites? God enables them to escape their oppressive captivity under the Egyptians. He leads them out of Egypt and through the desert to Canaan protecting and strengthening them against marauding nations, feeding them daily with manna, even making their shoes more durable. This doesn't sound like the conduct of a monster to me...I would think a monster would do the reverse: He would keep the Israelites miserable and oppressed; He would kill all the Egyptian firstborn for no reason at all; He would burn Moses in a bush rather than simply speaking to him from one, and so on.

Over and over again through the Scriptures God is seen to punish the wicked and bless the righteous. He goes beyond, however, and reaches out to the wicked with the offer of reconciliation to Himself. He doesn't show only holiness and justice, but also love and mercy. What is monstrous about paying the penalty for the guilty? What is monstrous about saving the weak from themselves? What is monstrous about blessing the undeserving? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Peace.

Aiki,

Anyone who manipulates people's minds, whether through fear or other means, to get them to do harmful things is a monster. Are you familiar with Deuteronomy Chapter 3, verses 1-7? If not, read it and then come back and tell me God was just. Christians always tell the nonbelievers to read the Bible to know the truth, so practice what you preach. Read the Bible.

 

[aiki]

Did God come to you in your dreams and tell you what his motives are? If not, why are you asking that question in such a way that makes it seem as if you know the answer when you are just as much at a loss as the nonbelievers?

It seems to me that you're reading into my question what you may expect to be there - whether it is actually there or not. Never have I suggested that I understand God's every motive. Some of His motives are explained to us in Scripture but this is by no means an exhaustive accounting of why God does or does not do something. When I read a post that suggests or implies that its author has some ability to see deeper into what God is doing than His Word allows us to see, then I ask how this is possible.

Peace.

 

[aiki]

Anyone who manipulates people's minds, whether through fear or other means, to get them to do harmful things is a monster. Are you familiar with Deuteronomy Chapter 3, verses 1-7? If not, read it and then come back and tell me God was just. Christians always tell the nonbelievers to read the Bible to know the truth, so practice what you preach. Read the Bible.

I have read the Bible many, many times. Unlike you, however, I have some understanding of it, too. What I have already explained about such passages holds true here as well. God is holy and just - even in Deuteronomy 3. If you want to know why I think this, go back and read what I've already written (on page 4 of this thread, in particular).

Peace.

 

[drich0150]

Anyone who manipulates people's minds, whether through fear or other means, to get them to do harmful things is a monster.

Not to intrude on your conversation, but would this broad definition also include collages, universities, professors, atheists, agnostics, or Mikes, that may use simple peer pressure or the idea of a diploma or other academic award that may offer a better life for someone if they simply changed the way they think?

Or is this definition reserved for the religious crazies, and whatever god they may serve?