God's many plans for the Gay community???????

[Zoness]

Hell isn't a punishment. God respects our free will and won't force us to accept him and be in his presence for eternity. Hell is just eternal separation from god's love and protection.

I've heard this view several times but the way you seem to word it makes it sound much kinder than it probably is. The common Christian interpretation is that of hellfire and brimstone a la Dante's Inferno.

Even the people who died before Jesus came will still have a chance to accept him and gain entrance into heaven.

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

How exactly does that work? Are you referring to something like Requiem Masses? How do you know the dead have accepted a very specific interpretation of Christianity? Does it matter?

I wouldn't laugh at anybody being sent to hell. I just hope you change your ways before it is too late. You have nothing to lose if you believe in god and everything to gain. If god doesn't exist your fate will be the same as everybody else, if he does exist then you already know what will happen.

Pascal's Wager is a pragmatic way to look at the afterlife but I don't understand why Christians make the argument. Chances are it doesn't make for people who follow the Christian rules to the letter. Unless of course you have a more open interpretation that I am unaware of.

 

[Mikeb85]

That's at odds with all of the Christians who tell me hell is a real, physical place of eternal torture. But not having any perceivable interaction with your god, I don't believe, and follow some other gods and therefore, I tend to think I am already separated...and doing just fine.

The position he gave you is much closer to what Christians have believed for the last 2000 years, and is much more Orthodox than what Protestants believe...

We don't believe in an angry God smiting people and doling out punishments, but one who is compassionate. Many church fathers have likened heaven/hell to union/separation from God, and the idea that our fate is determined by the state of our heart/soul, and not membership in any particular organization or even religion. (and yes, that means that the Orthodox belief is that it's possible for non-Christians to be 'saved')

American protestant Christians (ie. "fundies") are a peculiar breed, since their form of Christianity does little to improve quality of life, bring happiness, or even make any sort of rational sense, yet they want everyone to be 'saved' (you say one sentence, then boom, *magic*)...

 

[Zoness]

The position he gave you is much closer to what Christians have believed for the last 2000 years, and is much more Orthodox than what Protestants believe...

We don't believe in an angry God smiting people and doling out punishments, but one who is compassionate. Many church fathers have likened heaven/hell to union/separation from God, and the idea that our fate is determined by the state of our heart/soul, and not membership in any particular organization or even religion. (and yes, that means that the Orthodox belief is that it's possible for non-Christians to be 'saved')

American protestant Christians (ie. "fundies") are a peculiar breed, since their form of Christianity does little to improve quality of life, bring happiness, or even make any sort of rational sense, yet they want everyone to be 'saved' (you say one sentence, then boom, *magic*)...

You have perfectly captured my thoughts tonight.

 

[football5680]

That's at odds with all of the Christians who tell me hell is a real, physical place of eternal torture. But not having any perceivable interaction with your god, I don't believe, and follow some other gods and therefore, I tend to think I am already separated...and doing just fine.



I do believe in god, just not yours. You can read more about Pascal's Wager here.

Ok, so am I suppose to defend what other Christians believe when I don't think that way? I am Catholic and we do not believe hell is a physical place where you can literally go. You must die first.

Catholics believe hell will be an eternity of Torment, with the definition being Mental anguish, not physical pain.

If other Christians told you that then talk to them but I can't defend a view I do not hold.

I'm not here to forcefully convert you or tell you that you are wrong. I am simply presenting what I hold to be true and doing what I feel is in your best interest. You have the option to accept it or reject it and the decision does not matter to me.

 

[ViaCrucis]

St. Isaac describes Hell as the same "place" as Heaven. The key difference between the two isn't location, but how one experiences God's all-embracing love. The anguish of Hell, in the opinion of Isaac, is remorse. He compares it to how when we betray a close friend, we are welled up with remorse for having betrayed one who loves us deeply. Thus Hell is to be in the light of God's grace, His love, and His compassion and to know, and experience the full interior anguish of realizing how one has spent a life acting destructively and against such love.

I also like C.S. Lewis' way(s) of talking about Hell:

“Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others... but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God "sending us" to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE hell unless it is nipped in the bud.”

This idea that Hell is ultimately something of our own making is quite persistent in the history of Christianity. While the idea of Hell as this blazing inferno has long been part of popular culture, it is fascinating how rare it actually shows up among Christian theologians over the past two millennia.

The really gruesome pictures of Hell that many are familiar with are something you just didn't really see until the late middle ages. In fact, when searching for the earliest paintings of Hell, I can't really find much prior to the 15th century. The Hell panel from Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights comes up frequently in my searches. Now, of course, I could be mistaken, but that is at least where my searches have thus taken me.

It seems safe to say that such images are rather absent from the first thousand years of Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[football5680]

I've heard this view several times but the way you seem to word it makes it sound much kinder than it probably is. The common Christian interpretation is that of hellfire and brimstone a la Dante's Inferno.



How exactly does that work? Are you referring to something like Requiem Masses? How do you know the dead have accepted a very specific interpretation of Christianity? Does it matter?



Pascal's Wager is a pragmatic way to look at the afterlife but I don't understand why Christians make the argument. Chances are it doesn't make for people who follow the Christian rules to the letter. Unless of course you have a more open interpretation that I am unaware of.

The modern view of hell comes from Dante's Inferno so that is what a good amount of Christians would think but the bible doesn't give vivid details about it. Hell was not created for humans, it was first created for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41), who rejected god. Humans who also reject god will go there because god isn't going to force them to be with him. Depending on what Christian you ask their fate will be different. I'm Catholic and I don't think hell is a physical place you can go to so there will be no pain. Your soul must be separated from your body to go to hell. You will be in Torment, with the definition being mental anguish, due to the separation from god. Catholics also believe in Purgatory which is basically the middle ground between the two but it is closer to heaven because you will eventually enter heaven from there after spiritual purification. Protestants do not believe in Purgatory but that is because they threw out 7 books from the old testament. They claimed their biblical cannon was based on the Council of Jamnia but there is no evidence that this event took place. The Old Testament cannon that Catholic use was completed in 220 BC, 250 years before the Catholic church existed so there was no way the message could be tampered with to fit somebodies motive. The same can't be said for the Protestant bible. The New Testament books are the same though.

The gospel was proclaimed to the dead when Jesus descended into hell after his crucifixion. They received the message straight from Jesus so there was no need to interpret the message in a certain way. So it had nothing to do with Requiem Masses.

I am not familiar with Pascal's Wager so I can't really comment on that.

 

[Ave Maria]

I have never really considered the idea before. I do believe that God has a plan for all people, including people who practice homosexuality. I believe that He wants everyone to come to know Him and be converted to His Church.

That said, my beliefs concerning homosexuality are the same as the Catholic Church's as expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I do not believe that homosexuals choose to be homosexual although I do believe that they choose whether or not to act on homosexual temptations. I believe that all people, including homosexuals, are called to chastity. For those who are exclusively attracted to the same sex this would mean celibacy as well as refraining from masturbation and inappropriate contentography. I also believe that we should respect homosexuals but we should not and cannot condone homosexual "marriage" or the homosexual lifestyle.

 

[DennisTate]

With all due respect, I have no idea what this post means.

-CryptoLutheran

To put this another way God was able to raise up a work for alcoholics through the founders of AA, that I personally almost certainly could not have done as effectively...because I had bleeding stomach ulcers since I was about four years old, so I was unable to get into really heavy drinking!!!???


Sometimes the metaphor in what is taught as a sin in the Torah......may have application on a spiritual level that is actually far, far, far, far, far more important to God than the literal level??!!

For example.....if God gives somebody a high political office.......and this person has seen "An Inconvenient Truth" five times....watched "The Corporation" twice......watched "The World According to Monsanto" three times....watched "The Future of Food" four times....watched "Food Inc" twice and yet does NOTHING about any of these issues.....then this person is kind of bending over.....................

On that note I wish to make it clear that I am NOT ADVOCATING A CARBON TAX....partly because it is impractical until a substitute for oil has been found. I am advocating heavy investment in turning deserts green and massive investment in research to put a viable hydrogen vehicle on the road....(If Stanley Meyer can do it....why can't we)!!??:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/west...rrency-unit-to-save-coastal-c/373261199364486

Proposal for the creation of a Quebec provincial currency unit to save coastal communities from threat of rising ocean levels.

In my opinion it is going to cost trillions of dollars to do what needs to be done to protect towns like Truro, and Antigonish, Nova Scotia from the consequences of the cracking and sliding of a large part of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and the land based Greenland Ice Pack into the ocean.

The province of Alberta attempted to create its own provincial currency unit during The Great Depression but enormous pressure was exerted to ensure that their experiment in monetary policy was unsuccessful.

....
The province of Quebec seems to be in much better position to create its own provincial currency unit without facing the massive backlash from the financial community and federal government that Alberta experienced.

Dr. James Hansen has stated that the last time that global temperatures rose by three degrees ocean levels rose by 25 meters over four centuries. Canada and the world are NOT yet prepared for ocean rise of one meter every twenty years.

Nearly one hundred million people in Bangladesh alone will become climate change refugees in the event of merely a one meter rise in ocean levels! (Some estimates are as low as thirty million)?????!!!!

 

[DennisTate]

I have never really considered the idea before. I do believe that God has a plan for all people, including people who practice homosexuality. I believe that He wants everyone to come to know Him and be converted to His Church.

That said, my beliefs concerning homosexuality are the same as the Catholic Church's as expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I do not believe that homosexuals choose to be homosexual although I do believe that they choose whether or not to act on homosexual temptations. I believe that all people, including homosexuals, are called to chastity. For those who are exclusively attracted to the same sex this would mean celibacy as well as refraining from masturbation and inappropriate contentography. I also believe that we should respect homosexuals but we should not and cannot condone homosexual "marriage" or the homosexual lifestyle.

Dr. Ian Stevenson devoted his life to aspects of research that will almost certainly, within two decades, play a significant role in helping us Christians to realize that when the Gay Community teaches that "we were born this way" that they are TELLING THE TRUTH!!!!!!

A deeper level of understanding of this full topic will give to Christianity replicable, verifiable anecdotal evidence strongly indicative of the resurrection of the dead....and that time itself is not limited to being one straight line....but instead branches like a menorah!!!!!!

Ezekiel 37 rather than being a one time event.....probably happens again and again and again and again.....the implication is that God is out to save far more of us than our present circumstances would tend to indicate!!!!!?????

 

[Zoness]

The modern view of hell comes from Dante's Inferno so that is what a good amount of Christians would think but the bible doesn't give vivid details about it. Hell was not created for humans, it was first created for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41), who rejected god. Humans who also reject god will go there because god isn't going to force them to be with him. Depending on what Christian you ask their fate will be different. I'm Catholic and I don't think hell is a physical place you can go to so there will be no pain. Your soul must be separated from your body to go to hell. You will be in Torment, with the definition being mental anguish, due to the separation from god. Catholics also believe in Purgatory which is basically the middle ground between the two but it is closer to heaven because you will eventually enter heaven from there after spiritual purification. Protestants do not believe in Purgatory but that is because they threw out 7 books from the old testament. They claimed their biblical cannon was based on the Council of Jamnia but there is no evidence that this event took place. The Old Testament cannon that Catholic use was completed in 220 BC, 250 years before the Catholic church existed so there was no way the message could be tampered with to fit somebodies motive. The same can't be said for the Protestant bible. The New Testament books are the same though.

I grew up with these concepts, I was raised in Catholicism...later jumped to Protestantism and then found Christianity inattentive to my spiritual needs and questions.

The gospel was proclaimed to the dead when Jesus descended into hell after his crucifixion. They received the message straight from Jesus so there was no need to interpret the message in a certain way. So it had nothing to do with Requiem Masses.

Ok, I knew that. I reread the original post and I must have missed something because I thought you were implying another line of thought.

I am not familiar with Pascal's Wager so I can't really comment on that.

In logical-algorithmic terms its a truth table with four discrete states with axioms of belief and reward. The condensed basic premise is this: "If you believe in God and he exists, you have an infinite gain (X+), if you believe in him but he doesn't exist you have a FINITE loss (X-) but if you don't believe in him and he DOES turn out to exist you have an infinite loss (hell, condition Y-) and just to complete the truth table; if you don't believe in him and he doesn't exist you only have a finite gain (Y+).

Very rational way to approach not being tortured for eternity.

The question is which religion is right if you are going to take that approach, its still quite a gamble looking in mathematically absolute terms.

 

[DennisTate]

......



In logical-algorithmic terms its a truth table with four discrete states with axioms of belief and reward. The condensed basic premise is this: "If you believe in God and he exists, you have an infinite gain (X+), if you believe in him but he doesn't exist you have a FINITE loss (X-) but if you don't believe in him and he DOES turn out to exist you have an infinite loss (hell, condition Y-) and just to complete the truth table; if you don't believe in him and he doesn't exist you only have a finite gain (Y+).

Very rational way to approach not being tortured for eternity.

The question is which religion is right if you are going to take that approach, its still quite a gamble looking in mathematically absolute terms.

.....the fact that the fallen angels....most notably Lucifer fell even after serving as a covering cherub right beside the Ancient of Days the Father......would tend to indicate that something deeper than mere belief may be necessary??!!


James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

The Pharisees and Scribes also believed but were totally unwilling to imagine that God would do something new that didn't fit their rather narrow plans.

We are living in a time period when it is predicted that the mysteries will be explained.....so a narrow belief that fits with doctrines three to five centuries or more old....that absolutely refused to adapt to a new and much broader explanation for God's real plans.....might not be good enough????!!!!

Daniel 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Jeremiah 23:20 "The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly."

In the time of Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua which group of people seemed to get more of his wrath?

The deeply religious but angry and proud and critical people who refused to imagine that God could use common people, tax collectors and former prostitutes to work out His purposes for that time period, seemed to get most of Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua/s anger!!??!

I am of the belief that NDE accounts such as Christian Andreason had are a large part of God explaining the mysteries to all of humanity. I do hope that the majority in the church doesn't get too stuck on the notion that the being of light who meets people who have a brush with death is Lucifer appearing as an angel of light????!!!!

I had to go through the process of asking myself that question too!!!

 

[DennisTate]

Hell isn't a punishment. God respects our free will and won't force us to accept him and be in his presence for eternity. Hell is just eternal separation from god's love and protection.

Even the people who died before Jesus came will still have a chance to accept him and gain entrance into heaven.

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

I wouldn't laugh at anybody being sent to hell. I just hope you change your ways before it is too late. You have nothing to lose if you believe in god and everything to gain. If god doesn't exist your fate will be the same as everybody else, if he does exist then you already know what will happen.

I am glad that you have gotten into this debate Football5680! On a metaphorical level many many people at this time are experiencing a form of hell that has been caused by the unwillingness of people with sufficient knowledge to also show the courage necessary to get this information out to the people who can use that information:



http://www.christianforums.com/t7727006/

Has anybody here tried the pig feed remedy for bi-polar?

I heard of this several years ago but just found the article last week!

Vitamins for bipolar: cure or quackery?

.....

On the subject of people being condemned to hell I have ran into impressive evidence that time looks like a menorah and any moment in what we think of as the past....can be replicated along with every single person who lived at that time .....and then an entirely new branch of time can be initiated in which much much much more of the Holy Spirit is poured out.......

The rewards for coming to God under these conditions are less.....but more of us at least get "saved" in these other branches of time......

This is my explanation for the rather controversial statement Christian Andreason makes as he reviews his NDE:


.near-death.com/andreason.html#two
When you got to Heaven, what was the first thing you saw?

....

Who goes to Heaven?

In the end ... believe it or not (sigh of relief), everyone gets to come home! Heaven is a place of ultimate LOVE. When we have learned how to become individuals that base our entire existence and consciousness around manifesting LOVE, we then become capable of entering the domain of the higher Realms of Heaven. If we do not practice Love, we can only go so far and ........

 

[DennisTate]

I feel rather strongly that this film gives us an idea of how he wishes to use the Gay Community to be leaders in a movement to reform modern medicine!!!!!



Burzynski the Movie
The Great Cancer Hoax: The Brilliant Cure the FDA Tried Their Best to Shut Down...

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

I'm going to vote "no" ...

Now look over what was said and the way the poll is constructed and realize you said the opposite of what you meant due to knee jerk.

Perhaps this is an emotionally driven issue for you?

 

[DennisTate]

Now look over what was said and the way the poll is constructed and realize you said the opposite of what you meant due to knee jerk.

Perhaps this is an emotionally driven issue for you?

Yup....I got the same impression myself!!!!!

Yesterday a gifted Christian sent me what I feel is a genuine word of knowledge!!!!


Sandra:
"Amen. God bless you. He is blessing you. There is an umbrella of protection over you, and under the umbrella it is raining blessings. Outside the umbrella it is dry and hard and dead."


After I read this....for the rest of the day I seemed to get one myself....but it was for author Christian Andreason whose NDE I quoted in the opening post!

Basically I feel powerfully that he has a major Joshua calling on his life.....and God wants him to metaphorically become like a General for a group of people who God wants to lead to victory after victory after victory after victory^n!!!!!!

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

Ok question for you Dennis. Is your position that homosexuality isn't, and never was sinful? That they have some special place in the kingdom, and can do things no one else can?

 

[DennisTate]

I also feel that there is a major Moses/Moshe calling mantle on Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski.....who you can see in this film:

Burzynski the Movie

I personally feel that Dr. Burzynski has been inspired and guided by God to discover this amazing remedy for cancer. Here is what former atheist Howard Storm was shown regarding how God and/or angels reveal scientific discoveries to experts who hear him to at least some degree:

near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html

Science, technology, and other benefits, they told me, had been gifts bestowed on humanity by them – through inspiration. People had literally been led to those discoveries, many of which had later been perverted by humanity to use for its own destruction. We could do too much damage to the planet. And by the planet, they meant all of God's creation. Not just the people, but the animals, the trees, the birds, the insects, everything.

They explained to me that their concern was for all the people of the world. They weren't interested in one group getting ahead of other groups. They want every person to consider every other person greater than their own flesh. They want everyone to love everyone else, completely; more, even, than they love themselves. If someone, someplace else in the world hurts, than we should hurt we should feel their pain. And we should help them.

Our planet has evolved to the point, for the first time in our history, that we have the power to do that. We are globally linked. And we could become one people.

 

[DennisTate]

Ok question for you Dennis. Is your position that homosexuality isn't, and never was sinful? That they have some special place in the kingdom, and can do things no one else can?

My position is that the research of Dr. Ian Stevenson fits somehow with many of the unusual teachings of Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua that can be taken in a number of ways.

By this I mean that a powerful case can be presented from both scripture as well as psychology and para-psychology that the Gay Community may well be correct in their assertion that "we were born this way!"

This is of course a relevant detail that God will take into consideration in their judgment.

I was born egotistical, cranky, pedantic and rather cold emotionally. I believe that what I am up against is in its own way an even worse spiritual affliction than somebody being gay!!!!

I am, from birth, rather like those Scribes and Pharisees who Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua stated were in a sense children of the Devil!!!!!! Because I used to observe the weekly and annual Sabbaths I got into a mentality of calling Pentecostals and zealous Christians who had spiritual gifts....I and my church felt that these gifts were from Baalzebub....which is right up there with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit!!!!!!

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

I and my church felt that these gifts were from Baalzebub....which is right up there with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit!!!!!!

Confession of sin is good, but you do realize that being AWARE of the Holy spirit is a necessary part of committing the unforgivable sin? Surely you didn't do this when you KNEW it was of God?

And since the gifts have operated in you since, obviously God accepts your sacrifice ...

My position is that the research of Dr. Ian Stevenson fits somehow with many of the unusual teachings of Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua that can be taken in a number of ways.

By this I mean that a powerful case can be presented from both scripture as well as psychology and para-psychology that the Gay Community may well be correct in their assertion that "we were born this way!"

This is of course a relevant detail that God will take into consideration in their judgment.

Ok, so how much of the LGBT community is "born this way?" And what of those that practice that way who weren't born that way, but affected due to nurture? And what about the generation to be born into a world where marriage is peachy no matter how its done? Won't they experiment with bi-sexuality more? How does God look upon this development, and our role in it?

 

[Joe Friday]

Do you believe the Bible is God's Word to us or not?? He says that homosexuality is committed by those who have kept God's will away from them willingly and they are reprobate. (Rom. 1.24-25)

So, Do you believe that or not? If Rom 1.25 is true then what's the questions about "being born that way"?

If Rom 1.25 is Untrue, what are we doing here, at Christian Forums? Find what you believe and go join Them.