GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

LoveGodsWord

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The wheat and tares are not mentioned in the passage, and no one has disputed that the wheat and tares are a parable.

The statement that He will divide them as one divides sheep and goats is a simile. It is never called a parable.

If I said that plain is going to fly like a bird through the air, did I tell a parable? No. It is a comparison.

And it is not even if I say "look at that bird fly". It is already clear I am speaking about the plain that I compared to a bird.

Hi tall,

Thanks for your thoughts. I do not think what you have said here is a relevant camparison. We are not talking of something that is similar.

People are not sheep and goats therefore a parable.

Furthermore, I have never disagreed that this parable is not a reference to the judgment.

I think you missed the point of my previous posts here which was that these two groups are divided at the 2nd coming based on a judgment that has already beed completed not on one that is just starting after the second coming.

This is why it is written at the completion of the judgment in heaven...

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

As shown above the completion of the judgment and sentance is given before the 2nd coming.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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a. I have already stated that the Day of Atonement deals with the people and the sanctuary. In fact, the very post you were quoting was quoting the type that highlighted both.

b. Hebrews 23-25 is the only place in the NT the cleansing of the heavenly things is specifically addressed. So if your concern is for that, yes, you may want to look at it.

Hi tall,

Thanks for your thoughts here.

The emphasis on most of your posts has always been for the atonement of God's people and not the cleansing of the Sanctuary which was the reason for the discussion and earlier posts provided.

The emphasis on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16 and the reason for the day of atonement has always been on the cleansing and removal of sin from the Sanctuary and the presence of God resulting in the atonement of God's people.

This is important as it relates directly back to Daniel 8:13-14 on when the cleansing of the Sanctuary was to take start after the establsihment of the little Horn power after the 2300 year prophecy.

Hope this helps
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I indicated that no where is the scapegoat, or associated Greek term, spelled out in the NT. The New Testament spells out a number of fulfilments of the type. Some have things that are a little surprising to us. If the New Testament gives the fulfillment, we can without a doubt believe that fulfillment.

If it does not then we can predict from the type. But that does not have the same certainty as a New Testament passage. So for instance, when Paul references Christ our Passover Lamb in I Corinthians 5, it is a plain statement that Jesus fulfilled the OT type of the lamb during Passover.

This is a simple example that we both agree on. But it illustrates the point. If something is spelled out, we know it. If it is not, we may infer. But we cannot say our inferences are on the same level of certainty as Scripture.

I think what we can agree on here is that the annual festivals are shadows and prophetic in nature. What you have shown above in this post and I agree also, that in the NT the feasts that have been fulfilled are clearly explianed in the NT as to what these fulfillments refer to.

On the same token however it can be argued that there is indeed silence as to the antitypical meanings in relation to some of the feasts that have not yet been fulfilled. The day of atonement being a good example here as it has not yet had it's fulfillment so there not direct scripture passages showing fulfillment.

This however does not mean one cannot come to an understanding of Prophecy by a careful study of the word of God through his Spirit. The books of Daniel and Revelations as well as other passages in both the Old and New Testament highlight possible interpretations as to what the Shadows are pointing to.

For me personally, I believe there is merit to the scapegoat in Leviticus 16 representing the punishment of Satan at the 2nd coming. In the NT Satan is shown to receive similar punishment to the scapegoat in Leviticus 16 as described in the book of Revelations where he and he will be cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years.

Even looking at the scriptures in relation to the sheep and the goats, the scriptures indicate that the live goats can have an application to the wicked in the NT.

Notice in..

LEVITICUS 16:20-22: And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness. And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

After the cleansing of the Sanctuary all the sins of God's people are transferred to the goat by the High Priest. We are guilty of sin but Christ bore our sin when we accept him as Savious and seek his forgiveness through repentance and faith in his promises. The instigator of all sin however is Satan.

After the scapegoat/azazel was sent into the wilderness, both the high priest and the fit man (before he returned to the camp) had to wash themselves and their clothes (Leviticus 16:23-26). The “fit man” here could represent the angel in Revelation 20:1-3 who will lay hold of the dragon (Satan) and seal him in the bottomless pit.

In examining the transferal of sin to the scapegoat, it is significant to note that the goat was not treated as all other animal sacrifices were — slain as atonement for sin. A sacrifice was valid as an atonement for transgressions only as it died, as there was spilled blood. Thus, Jesus was "set forth to be a propitiation [for us] by his blood (Rom. 3:25, NKJV). It is "through his blood" that we have redemption (Eph. 1:7).

Preserving the goat alive tells that Azazel had another significance.

Because shed blood was necessary for a sin offering, in what way could an animal kept alive be considered such an offering?

In the case of the scapegoat, it was the high priest, who placed the sins on the goat. A reason for this is that the peoples sins had already been cared for by the sacrifice of the Lord's goat. Now the goat "for Azazel" had its part to play, one quite different from the Lord's goat.

In Leviticus (24:13,14). A young man blasphemed God and so was sentenced to be taken outside the camp and stoned to death. Before the stoning, witnesses to his words laid their hands on his head.

Two suggestions have been made as to the significance of this act. One, they were making solemn testimony that they had indeed heard his blasphemies and that he therefore merited his fate. Second, they were transferring back to him any guilt that had "rubbed off" on them by hearing him.

Both of these suggestions have merit. Christ, as no other, has been witness to the rebellion of Satan and can attest that he richly deserves his fate. And the sins Satan caused others to commit will be laid back upon him so that he will be required to bear the penalty for those sins. This is not to make him a propitiation for the sins. This also demonstrated in the NT in the book of Revelation.

In one case only, was the transfer of sin to the scapegoat carried out and that was on the Day of Atonement. This was done by the high priest as he lay his hands upon the animal and confessed all the sins of God's people after the cleansing of the Sanctuary. The purpose was to remove all the Sins of God's people from the Sanctuary and the presence of God.

This was done after the atonement for sin had been completed. Unlike all other cases following such transfer, the goat was not slain but kept alive. Rather, it was to be sent away into the wilderness by the hands of a strong man who was to release the goat in the wilderness (Lev. 16:21-22).

After the high priest finished his work of cleansing the sanctuary and making atonement and emerged from the sanctuary, the rituals involving the scapegoat were performed. When Christ, our Great High Priest, ends His work in the heavenly sanctuary (Dan. 12:1; Heb. 8-10), at the end of the antitypical Day of Atonement, it is not unreasonable to think he places upon Satan responsibility for the sins he has caused God's people to perform.

Therefore, there is merit that the antitypical of the scapegoat being taken into the wilderness, "the Devil and Satan ... is bound for a thousand years; and cast... into the bottomless pit" (Rev. 20:2,3).

Well possibly, said more then I should have here. I agree that Prophecy unfulfilled is prophecy unfulfilled and passages may be unclear and open to interpretation, but the reason why prophecy is given is because it is to be revealed to God's people who seek him by his Spirit.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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That is your assertion. The text of Hebrews 9:23 directly references the cleansing of the heavenly things. It is the only place in the NT it is spelled out. So for you to assert that it isn't talking about it, when even Adventist scholars admit it is, needs to be explained.
Well not really, it is God's Word not mine and Hebrews 9 shows that Christs sacrifice is sufficient for all sin.

As shown through the scriptures in the earlier posts, Hebrews 9:23-25 does not say that the day of atonement took place at the death and ressurrection of Jesus.

This was the point of the earlier posts and Hebrews 9, that the blood and sacrifice of Jesus was sufficent for all sin for the ministration of the Heavenly Sanctuary.
again is your statement. But it does not address why it compares the ENTRY (part of the Day of Atonement) of Christ into God's presence, in comparison with the high priest's yearly entry with blood. That is the Day of Atonement. And again, even Adventist scholars have referenced it. You may not think it should be there, based on your understanding of the type. But it still says it, so you have to look at the NT explanation, instead of what you expect it to be.
Sorry tall. Not at all. God's Word was provided not mine. You have been provided scripture showing how your application of Hebrews 9 is not an application to the fulfilment or even the starting of the day of Atonement in the heavenly Sanctuary but to the sufficiency of Christs prefect sacrifice for cleansing all sin.

Hope this helps..
 
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tall73

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Hi tall,

This is why it is written at the completion of the judgment in heaven...

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

As shown above the completion of the judgment and sentance is given before the 2nd coming.

Hope this helps.

You have posted this several time. But I do not see what you see in it apparently.

First of all you say it is written at the completion of the judgment, but the context does not say that.

Moreover, it simply says His reward is with Him to give to each one according to his work shall be.

He is set to reward both evil and righteous.

Why don't you spell out from the context how you get that this is a proclamation at the end of the IJ you are proposing.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And yet you have elements that occur in the first century, or do not at all. And this is the point I am making. You have not actually heard much of anything I have said.

Actually I have heard what you have said this is why scriptures have to been provided as a response to what you have said. Some things we agree on others not so much.

I started out saying I do not think ALL of the Day of Atonement type is fulfilled yet.

You have indeed but this was not the issue. It was your application that after the resurrection the day of atonement started. While I agree that this provides Christs perfect sacrifice for all sin and the begining of the ministration of Jesus as our great high priest, king and God, this is not a reference to the starting of the day of atonement which the scriptures say do not happen until after the establishment of the little horn after the 2300 day/year prophecy and judgment of Daniel 7 and Daniel 10.

So to keep objecting by saying it isn't all fulfilled yet, is to ignore what I am saying.

I have not objected to what you said here. It is your application as to when it started and your application of Leviticus 16 and the books of Daniel and Revelation that we are discussing and is in question.

I think part of it is fulfilled, because the NT says it is.

I can see references to the day of atonement in the NT in relation to the sufficiency of Christ perfect sacrifice and new priesthood and covenant.

I do not see in the NT where it says the day of atonement has started. Can you show me the scripture?

I am contending that the entry and blood ministration was also fulfilled in the first century, as spelled out in Hebrews 9:23-24. Now whether you think it should be or not, based on your reading of the type, is not the point. You can insist what you think the type means. But if the inspired New Testament author explains it, I will take his explanation of the type, regardless of what you think it should be.

I think the problem is that we seem to be reading the same scriptures differently. I do not see that the scriptures you have provide say anything about the day of atonement starting.

Hebrews 9:23-25 is simply stating that the "Sanctuary" (holy places) was a figure of the Heavenly and highlighting the difference between the earthly sacrifices and how these needed to be offered continually and Christs perfect sacrifice that only needs to be offerered once.

This is not a reference to the starting of the day of atonement as shown in the scriptures of the earlier posts provided.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You have posted this several time. But I do not see what you see in it apparently.

First of all you say it is written at the completion of the judgment, but the context does not say that.

Moreover, it simply says His reward is with Him to give to each one according to his work shall be.

He is set to reward both evil and righteous.

Why don't you spell out from the context how you get that this is a proclamation at the end of the IJ you are proposing.

Of course it is talking about the judment and it is also BEFORE the 2nd coming. If judgment has not been completed then how can Christ bring his reward with him after pronouncing that state of mankind?

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

As shown above the completion of the judgment and sentance is given before the 2nd coming.

Hope this is helpful
 
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tall73

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Well not really, it is God's Word not mine and Hebrews 9 shows that Christs sacrifice is sufficient for all sin.

As shown through the scriptures in the earlier posts, Hebrews 9:23-25 does not say that the day of atonement took place at the death and ressurrection of Jesus.

This was the point of the earlier posts and Hebrews 9, that the blood and sacrifice of Jesus was sufficent for all sin for the ministration of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Sorry tall. Not at all. God's Word was provided not mine. You have been provided scripture showing how your application of Hebrews 9 is not an application to the fulfilment or even the starting of the day of Atonement in the heavenly Sanctuary but to the sufficiency of Christs prefect sacrifice for cleansing all sin.

Hope this helps..

And once again you do not even look at the text itself.

What do you think 9:23 means?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And once again you do not even look at the text itself. What do you think 9:23 means?

You know what you didn't do in that whole long post about Hebrews 9:24-25?

You didn't actually once quote the text, or talk about its particulars.

So I will ask again. Please explain your view of Hebrews 9:23-25. Go through the text, and explain it.

Start with 23, because it definitely mentions the cleansing of the heavenly things.

Well tall I disagree here with your premise.

Please show me how this post has not addressed Hebrews 9:23-25. The purpose of post #446, was to show how and why your interpretation of Hebrews 9:23-25 is not correct in saying that the cleansing of the Sanctuary or God's great day of atonement has started at the death and resurrection of Jesus the post discussed and the scripture content and context which refers to Christs complete sacrifice for all sin when compared to the earthly sacrifices of the earthly ministration.

Scripture was quoted but let's put them down again here and make it simple..

Your claim is that Hebrews 9:23-25 demonstrate that the day of atonement had already started at the resurrection of Christ right?

Context here is comparing the earthly Sanctuary with the heavenly Sanctuary

v1-7 The first covenant and the earthly Sanctuary describing all the sanctuary furniture and the two apartments with the day of atonement happening once a year not without blood for the cleansing the sins of the people

v8-9 Says the way into the G39 heavenly Sanctuary was not yet made manifest while the earthly Sanctuary was still standing. Which was a figure (pattern/shadow) for the time present.

v10 Many of the ordinances listed in the earthly Sanctuary were only temporary

v11 Christ is the true high priest of good things to come under the heavenly Sanctuary which is perfect and not made with hands like the earthly.

v12-22 Now the main focus of conversation is a comparison on the earthly sacrifices and the blood of the covenants and how Christs sacrifice and blood is prefect and all sufficient for all sin to obtain redemption for us in the ministration of the heavenly Sanctuary under the new covenant.

Now the context has been established...

HEBREWS 9:23-25 [23], It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

The patterns of things in heaven must also be purified with blood and sacrifice (Context)

[24], For Christ has not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Now Christ has not entered into the holy places (G39 Sanctuary) made with hands (earthly) but into heaven itself to appear in the presence of God for us. This is application once again to the work of Christ in the heavenly Sanctuary as our mediator and high priest to atone for our sins.

[25], Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others

Chists perfect sacrifice is once and for all sin not needing to do multiple sacrifices for sin like the earthly Sanctuary we are under a new and better covenant with Christs sacrifice being sufficient once and for all.

..........

Now as you can see here the context and topic of discussion is not the starting of the day of atonement but the differences between the earthly and the heavenly Sanctuary and ministration for sin provided by Christs perfect sacrifice.

Which ever way you want to present it none of these scriptures say or state anywhere that the day of atonement or cleansing of the Sanctuary has started in the heavenly Sanctuary at the resurrection of Jesus. This disagrees with your teaching and it not in the scriptures.

Hope this helps..
 
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tall73

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I think the problem is that we seem to be reading the same scriptures differently. I do not see that the scriptures you have provide say anything about the day of atonement starting.

Hebrews 9:23-25 is simply stating that the "Sanctuary" (holy places) was a figure of the Heavenly and highlighting the difference between the earthly sacrifices and how these needed to be offered continually and Christs perfect sacrifice that only needs to be offerered once.

And what does it mean by the cleansing of the heavenly things in 23?

And why the comparison to the entry of the high priest with blood yearly?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And what does it mean by the cleansing of the heavenly things in 23?

And why the comparison to the entry of the high priest with blood yearly?

I think post # 489 already answers this question rather well doesn't it?

It shows the whole context and topic of discussion of Hebrews 9 and no where in this chapter or anywhere in Hebrews or the NT does it teach that God's day of atonement has started.

Hope this helps.
 
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tall73

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I think post # 489 already answers this question rather well does'nt it?

It shows the whole context and topic of discussion of Hebrews 9 and no where in this chapter or anywhere in Hebrews or the NT does it teach that God's day of atonement has started.

Hope this helps.


If you can't see Day of Atonement in yearly entry by the high priest with blood, right after stating the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things, what would you see it in?


Oh, wait, I know, you see it in books in Daniel 7, even though there were not books in the type.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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high priest
yearly
entry with blood.

What is that?

What does it say in post # 489? It seems your only repeating yourself to what has aleady been responded to with scripture. Post # 489 already covers this question.

Where does it say in any of the book of Hebrews and Chapter 9 that God's day of atonement has started?

Look at the all the context of Hebrews 9. There is no scripture for this. It is talking about comparing both the earthy and heavenly administrations and Christs perfect sacrifice not the start of the day of atonement.

Is it late your time?
 
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tall73

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What does it say in post # 489? It seems your only repeating yourself to what has aleady been responded to with scripture. Post # 489 already covers this question. Is it late your time?


Except it didn't explain it. That is the point.

You claim that Daniel 7 is the DOA based only on books. Yet books are not in the type. And then you claim this is not despite a clear allusion to the type.

When else did the high priest go in yearly with blood?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Except it didn't explain it. That is the point.

Sorry tall, please read post # 489, It does indeed explain your claim that Hebrews 9:23-25 is saying that the day of atonement has started. It show that this interpretation is not biblical.

Now the rest of your post is only a diversion to something else not currently being discussed and answered already elsewhere. Happy to discuss it further though if you wish to?

What you are not considering in Hebrews 9 is the context and the topic of discussion. Nowhere in this whole chapter is it indicating that the day of atonement has started any where in it. The discussion is the comparison of the earthly and heavenly sanctuaries and the ordinances and Christs perfect sacrifice.

I suggest you re-read the scriptures here.
 
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tall73

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Sorry tall, please read post # 489, It does indeed explain your claim that Hebrews 9:23-25 is saying that the day of atonement has started. It show that this is not biblical.

Now the rest of your post is only a diversion to something else not currently being discussed and answered already elsewhere. Happy to discuss it further though if you wish to?

What you are not considering in Hebrews 9 is the context and the topic of discussion. Nowhere in this whole chapter is it indicating that the day of atonement has started any where in it. The discussion is the comparison of the earthly and heavenly sanctuaries and the ordinances and Christs perfect sacrifice.

I suggest you re-read the scriptures here.

Rest a diversion? Hardly

When else did the high priest enter God's presence with blood YEARLY?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Rest a diversion? Hardly

When else did the high priest enter God's presence with blood YEARLY?

Well it was a diversion as we are discussing Hebrews 9:23-25 correct? Now you wish to go back to Daniel 7 when the post provided to you was only discussing in detail Hebrews 9.

The context of Hebrews 9 and topic of discussion here is comparing the earthly Sanctuary ministration with the Heavenly ministration and Christs perfect sacrifice.

There is no discussion that the day of atonement has already started here. I suggest you re-read all of Hebrews 9.

What I posted was in no disrespect.

Just helpful to the conversation.
 
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tall73

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Well it was a diversion as we are discussing Hebrews 9:23-25 correct now you wich to go back to Daniel 7 when the post provided to you was only discussing in detail Hebrews 9.

What I posted was in no disrespect.

Just helpful to the conversation.


And this time I left out the Daniel 7 part.

And you still didn't answer......


When else did the high priest enter into God's presence with blood, yearly?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And this time I left out the Daniel 7 part.

And you still didn't answer......
When else did the high priest enter into God's presence with blood, yearly?

You seem to be ignoring everying posted to you. Maybe you can start be addressing post # 489 and show why you disagree with it.

Your question has nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Once again Hebrews 9 cannot help you. It is only a comparison of the earthly Sanctuary with the heavenly and Christs perfect sacrifice. It is not saying that the day of atonement has started.

Sorry tall Hebrews 9 does not help you here. Please re-read the linked post or re-read the whole Chapter 9 for context.

Hope this helps.
 
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