GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

The7thColporteur

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2017
1,336
266
Heavenly City
✟18,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Why do I need to explain to you that I understood what tall said?

bugkiller
Because it makes no sense in the light of what has been presented in this thread as evidence for the OP, on the points at issue.

I would like therefore, to see how you personally understand what was given, and to be able to explain your position. So far, I have not seen you do that, on anything really. Presently, I see you as cheerleader with puffs without substance.

Here is your opportunity to demonstrate otherwise in a clear way.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well here are a few others. But it is not called a parable. And in fact He describes what will happen in plain terms.
It seems that some commentators believe it is a parable and some do not think it is a parable.

For me unless you believe in literal sheep and goats and wheat and tares being saved and separated at the second coming then this is indeed a parable.

Does the parable have some application to the 2nd coming and the judgment? Sure it does (I stated this earlier in post # 396).

The parable only states however that at the second coming the sheep and the goats are separated. This is because the fate of all have already been decided beforehand in the judgment which takes place BEFORE the second coming when the annoncement is made...

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Hope this is helpful.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
There is no mistake. The text says what it says. Atonement was already made for all the people and reconciliation made for the sanctuary.

Hi tall, but it was indeed a mistake as the reason the questions about the scapegoat were asked was because the day of atonement is also for the cleansing of the Sanctuary from sin and the removal of sin from the Sanctuary and the very presence of God and the final act in God's plan of salvation prior to the 2nd coming.

T7C posted a nice post highlighting scriptures. Happy to discuss it again of you like?

Let's look at the scripture

1. Before the cleansing of the Sanctuary begins the high priest brings his own sin offerings,
gets dressed into his high priest robes (Leviticus 16:3-4)

2. At the beginning of the cleansing of the Sanctuary the goats are selected, one as a sin offering and one as a burnt offering before any cleansing takes place. (Leviticus 16:5)

3. The high priest after getting dressed then offers his own sin offerings (point one) for himself and his household (Leviticus 16:6)

4. At this time the two goats are brought in to the pesence of God and lot's are cast to choose which goat will be the sin offering and which goat would be the scapegoat (Leviticus 16:7-8)

5. The Lord's lot falls on the one goat which is the sin offering and is offered as a sin offereing (Leviticus 16:7-9)

6. The other lot falls on the other goat which is the scapegoat. This goat is brought alive before the presence of the Lord to make atonement with God in preparation to be let go into the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:10)

7. Then the sin all the sin offerings are killed and the blood brought into the Most Holy place with the incense sensor into the presence of God (Leviticus 16:11-15)

8. The atonement or cleansing of the Sanctuary is made is made for the Holy place and the tabernacle of meeting because of the sin of God's people (Cleansing of the Sanctuary). * Leviticus 16:16

9. Atonement is made for himself and all of God's people, no one to enter the tabernacle of meeting untill finished (Leviticus 16:11-17)

10. Cleansing of the Sanctuary continues with the Altar that is before the LORD which is made unclean by the sins of God's people throughout the year (Leviticus 16:18)

11. After the high priest finishes cleansing the Holy place, the tabernacle of meeting and the alter the high priest brings in the live goat and lay his hands on the goats head confessing ALL THE SIN OF GOD'S PEOPLE putting them on the head of the scapegoat for the removal of sin from the presence of God and final cleansing of sin from the Sanctuary. The goat is then taken away into the wilderness to a place not inhabited by a strong man, where the goat bears all the sins of God's people commited throughout the year. (Leviticus 16:20-22)

12. After the cleansing of the Sanctuary the high priest takes off his linen garments worn in the Holy place and leaves them there and moves into the tabernacle of meeting where he washes himself gets dressed and offers burnt offerings for himself an the people of God to make final atonement after the cleansing of the Sanctuary. (Leviticus 16:23-24)

13. The Atonement is not just for God's people for ALL their sin committed throughout the year, but also for the Sanctuary that is why the purpose of the day of Atonement is also for the cleansing (atonement) of the Sanctuary and the removal of all the sins of God's people commtted throughout the year from the prescence of God (Leviticus 16:33; 6; 8; 20-22).

...........

The scriptures highlighted above show that the purpose of the Day of Atonement is for the CLEANSING of the Sanctuary and the removal of ALL the sins committed by God's people from the presence of God by the scapegoat and the atonement {at-one-ment} of God's people from all sin committed (throughout the year).

This is the earthly which is a Shadow or a pattern of the heavenly where Christ as our great high priest ministers on our behalf.

HEBREWS 8:1-6
[1], Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[3], For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: therefore it is of necessity that this man have something also to offer.
[4], For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[5], Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, says he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.
[6], But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

HEBREWS 9:1-14;23-25
[1], Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary.
[2], For there was a tabernacle made; the first, in which was the lampstand, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.
[3], And behind the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
[4], Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, in which was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant
[5], And over it the cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
[6], Now when these things were thus prepared, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
[7], But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[8], The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing:
[9], Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
[10], Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
[11], But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[12], Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
[13], For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh:
[14], How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[23], It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
[24], For Christ has not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
[25], Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others.

...........

The earthly was a copy of the heavenly made in the pattern of heaven. The day of atonement was for the cleansing and removal of the sins of God's people from the presence of the Lord.

This was a different ministration to the daily and was only held one time each year to make atonement by blood for the cleansing of the Sanctuary from all the sins committed by God's people and the removal of all the sins committed by God's people from the presence of God by transferring these sins to the scapegoat.

This was a shadow of the final ministration of God's plan of salvation just prior to the 2nd coming and the completion of the judgment.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Some points in shadows already highlighted earlier by T7C...

Christ Jesus is both the Bullock and the Lord's Goat, but not the Scapegoat [Azaz'el, who is representing Satan/wicked], which is why there is the mentioning of the "lots":

Leviticus 16:8 KJB - And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. Notice, that both goats receive a designation, "one lot for the LORD".

How many for the LORD? Two or one? It is only "one".

The other "lot" was not then "for the LORD", but rather for someone else, "the other lot for the scapegoat".

Leviticus 16:10 - But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The Scapegoat was also never sacrificed, but to be "presented alive before the LORD", for the reason of making "atonement with him", after which the scapegoat was to be "let ... go ... into the wilderness", representing the desolate earth during the 1,000 years:

Satan [represented by the scapegoat, `aza'zel, not a sacrifice for sin, but ultimately responsible for all sin] then, after the Saints are "caught up" "to meet the Lord" "into the air" and the wicked are "brought low" and "slain" [to await their final sentencing in the Second resurrection after the 1000 years], is bound by his surrounding circumstance in the "1000 years" on the desolate Earth, the "wilderness" a "land not inhabited" [see Jeremiah 4:23-29, 25:33 KJB], where was once the "fruitful place", and he is bound and led away by the "strong man" [Jesus Christ; Psalms 19:5; Proverbs 24:5; Luke 11:22 KJB], just as Leviticus 16 and Revelation 20:1-3 KJB reveal [for events beforehand compare also Leviticus 16:17 KJB to Revelation 15:8 KJB, and also Leviticus 16:20; Isaiah 16:21 with Jesus coming out of Heaven to Hebrews 9:28]:

Leviticus 16:17 - And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy [place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

[compare to]

Revelation 15:8 - And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Then also:

Leviticus 16:20 - And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

Isaiah 26:21 - For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

[compare to]

Hebrews 9:28 KJB - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Then also:

Leviticus 16:8 - And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Leviticus 16:10 - But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:20 - And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

[compare to...]

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Then:

Leviticus 16:21 - And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Leviticus 16:22 - And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

[compare to...]

Revelation 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is to be "presented alive" [Leviticus 16:10 ], and is not eliminated at the 2nd Advent, but is to be taken and "bound" by a "great chain" [see Lamentations 3:7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6, for this is no ordinary chain of metal, seeing the devil may break these [Luke 8:29 etc], but a chain of circumstance] and "let go" into "the wilderness" alive.

The day of atonement is the final act in God's plan of salvation for the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin from the presence of God to Satan who represents the scapegoat where all the sins of God's people will be placed at the end of the cleansing of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment.

...............

When is this to start?

DANIEL 8:13-14 [13], Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?[14], And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

This takes place at the time of judgment well after the establisment of the little Horn (Daniel 8:9-13; 7:8-10; 20-21; 24-26)
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
And here is where it is difficult only because the NT does not interpret it. But I will discuss what I gather from the type.

Not sure why it needs to be difficult. The question was;

What was the scapegoat for? (not who is the scapegoat). Happy to talk about this as well though if you like.

The answer is provided in Leviticus 16.
So I already posted that per Hebrews 9:23-25 we see that Jesus appeared in God's presence on our behalf, with an entry that is likened to the entry of the high priest yearly with blood, only it is better because it is into the true, and Jesus did it once.

Jesus did what once? Yes he provided the sacrifice once and for all. This is not a reference to the the completion of the cleansing of the Sanctuary or the shadow fulfillment of the day of atonement.
That is the fulfillment of everything up to the point where the high priest would leave the sanctuary. There was the application of blood that made atonement for the people, and reconciled the sanctuary.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should bepurified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Places every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Sorry tall. No it is not a fulfillment of everything up to the point where the high priest leave the Sanctuary because at this time the anti-type of the day of atonement had not started at the death and resurrection of Christ. At Christs death and resurrection only Christs completed sacrifice and blood was prepared in preparation for his role as KING and high priest for his role in the heavenly Sanctuary. Christ priesthood and ministration was then to continue.

The role of Jesus after his ressurection to the Heavenly Sanctuary was for our sacrifice for sin, ministration of a new covanant as our high priest, king and God for judgment.

Christs priesthood is a NEW Priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-19) not after the earthly levitical order of sinful man but after the order of Malchizedek (means KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; PRIEST) allows him to enter into the presence of God as the sinless sacrifice for all mankind (Hebrews 5:6; 10; 6:20; 7:1-3. This is a different priesthood with a better covenant. He is at the right hand of the throne of God (Hebrews 8:1). Christs sacrifice was once and forever to cover all sin to bring in the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 10:1-14; 15-17).

This fulfilled the type up through vs. 20

11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:


The people are atoned for and the sanctuary reconciled. This was accomplished by sacrifice and presentation of blood. Jesus did just that.
What you are neglecting to show here is that the purpose of the day of atonement is for the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin of all of God's people from the presence of the Lord. This is the purpose of the day of atonement and what sets it apart from the daily ministration of forgiveness of individual sin.

Let's look at the scripture again...

1. Before the cleansing of the Sanctuary begins the high priest brings his own sin offerings,
gets dressed into his high priest robes (Leviticus 16:3-4)

2. At the beginning of the cleansing of the Sanctuary the goats are selected, one as a sin offering and one as a burnt offering before any cleansing takes place. (Leviticus 16:5)

3. The high priest after getting dressed then offers his own sin offerings (point one) for himself and his household (Leviticus 16:6)

4. At this time the two goats are brought in to the pesence of God and lot's are cast to choose which goat will be the sin offering and which goat would be the scapegoat (Leviticus 16:7-8)

5. The Lord's lot falls on the one goat which is the sin offering and is offered as a sin offereing (Leviticus 16:7-9)

6. The other lot falls on the other goat which is the scapegoat. This goat is brought alive before the presence of the Lord to make atonement with God in preparation to be let go into the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:10)

7. Then the sin all the sin offerings are killed and the blood brought into the Most Holy place with the incense sensor into the presence of God (Leviticus 16:11-15)

8. The atonement or cleansing of the Sanctuary is made is made for the Holy place and the tabernacle of meeting because of the sin of God's people (Cleansing of the Sanctuary). * Leviticus 16:16

9. Atonement is made for himself and all of God's people, no one to enter the tabernacle of meeting untill finished (Leviticus 16:11-17)

10. Cleansing of the Sanctuary continues with the Altar that is before the LORD which is made unclean by the sins of God's people throughout the year (Leviticus 16:18)

11. After the high priest finishes cleansing the Holy place, the tabernacle of meeting and the alter the high priest brings in the live goat and lay his hands on the goats head confessing ALL THE SIN OF GOD'S PEOPLE putting them on the head of the scapegoat for the removal of sin from the presence of God and final cleansing of sin from the Sanctuary. The goat is then taken away into the wilderness to a place not inhabited by a strong man, where the goat bears all the sins of God's people commited throughout the year. (Leviticus 16:20-22)

12. After the cleansing of the Sanctuary the high priest takes off his linen garments worn in the Holy place and leaves them there and moves into the tabernacle of meeting where he washes himself gets dressed and offers burnt offerings for himself an the people of God to make final atonement after the cleansing of the Sanctuary. (Leviticus 16:23-24)

13. The Atonement is not just for God's people for ALL their sin committed throughout the year, but also for the Sanctuary that is why the purpose of the day of Atonement is also for the cleansing (atonement) of the Sanctuary and the removal of all the sins of God's people commtted throughout the year from the prescence of God (Leviticus 16:33; 6; 8; 20-22).

...........

The scriptures highlighted above show that the purpose of the Day of Atonement is for the CLEANSING of the Sanctuary and the removal of ALL the sins committed by God's people from the presence of God by the scapegoat and the atonement {at-one-ment} of God's people from all sin committed (throughout the year).

Since Jesus is the High Priest whatever the scapegoat is, it is a work that Jesus is doing. And it seems to relate to the removing of all sin from the whole camp (or in the fulfillment, removal of sin from the earth. In other words, it refers to judgment.)
Jesus is the also the scapegoat (1st one) blood sacrifice or sin offering for the cleansing of the Sanctuary (Leviticus 16:8-10; 16-18; 33)

Scapegoat and Atonement

1. Leviticus 16 clearly defines the scapegoat’s function. The only of the scapegoat was to receive the sins of the people from the hands of the priest after he had borne them from the sanctuary, to retain them upon his own head, and go away from Israel forever into a land not inhabited.”

2. Reasoning from type to antitype, and the scapegoat representing Satan will have a similar part to act,” revealing that the “cleansing of the sanctuary being finished, the sins of all those who have escaped his temtations and sins will be laid upon him and he be cast into the bottomless pit. (Rev 20:1-3)

3. Since the sanctuary services reveal the transferal and removal of sins, what then is to be done with them, unless they are to be laid upon the head of their author, the devil? From the fact that our sins when forgiven are only transferred through the blood of Christ to the sanctuary, we learn that the pardon of our sins is only removing from us their guilt, by imputing to us the righteousness of another.

We are not the originators of sin. Behind all our transgressions there stands a guilty instigator; and why should it be thought more incredible or unscriptural that the guilt of those sins of which we repent, should be imputed to him who prompted us to commit them, than that the righteousness of Christ, upon our repenting, should be imputed to us?”

Why is Christ is NOT the Scapegoat?

1. If Christ, in bearing the sin of the world, fulfilled the antitype of the scapegoat,
he must have filled this office at the time of the crucifixion; for Peter says of
him, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree;" 1Pet.2:24; and
this is the only time when, and the only sense in which, he is said to have borne
our sins. But in the type, the scape-goat did not bear away the sins of the people
till after the cleansing of the sanctuary; hence the antitype of this work cannot
take place till after the cleansing of the antitypical sanctuary. At Christ's death he had not even started his work as our great high priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary as his sin offering was only just made.

2. This work did not start until after the establshment of the little horn and at the termination of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8:14.

3. The scape-goat, after being loaded with sin, was sent away by the priest. He could not therefore be the priest himself. But in this dispensation Christ is priest; he cannot therefore be the antitypical scape-goat to be sent away by himself never to return to a land not inhabited.

4. The scape-goat received and retained all the iniquities of God's people; but when Christ appears the second time, he will be "without sin."

5. It is impossible that two goats, one of which was chosen by the Lord, and is called the Lord's, while the other is not so called, but was left to perform an entirely different role. The goat on which the Lord's lot fell, the blood of which was ministered in the sanctuary, did certainly typify Christ. Just as surely the scape-goat could not typify him.

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
In Hebrews 9:23 we see a plain reference to the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary:
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hello tall,

I see you are trying to use Hebrews 9:23-25 to say that the day of atonement or cleansing of the sanctuary has already taken place? You seem to be moving on to here but you have not addressed the multitude of other questions that we have been discussing ealier that do not agree with your theory here. For instance;

How does the day of atonement differ from the daily ministration. You have been provided scripture that disagrees with your understanding showing that Leviticus 16 is talking about the cleansing and removal of sin from the Sanctuary and God's presence and not only the atonement of sin to God's people.

Your application to the scapegoat is Christ but how can that be based on the 5 points in the previous post. You seem to indicated that you did not know what the scapegoat represents. The cleansing of the Sanctuary only takes place according to scripture 2300 years after the establishment of the little horn which disagrees with your application of Hebrews 9:23-25.

How can you move on here without addressing all the other questions that have not been answered that disagree with your application of the scriptures here?

Happy to discuss the scriptures here with you again but they do not support your idear that the Cleansing of the Sanctuary has already been fulfilled if that were the case then God's plan of salvation has already been completed. The cleansing of the Sanctuary or the day of atoenment has not been completed according to scripture as the high priest has not gone through the process of cleansing the Sanctuary.

This is only completed when the sins of God's people are applied to the scapegoat and sins are removed from the presence of God. This takes place when the priest confesses and transfers the sins of God's people to the scapgoat and the goat is removed from the Sanctuary and the presence of God (Leviticus 16:33; 6; 8; 20-22). This happens after the 2nd coming when after the investigative judment highlighted in Daniel 7:10 when it is pronounced,

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelations 22:11-12.

As can be seen in the obove scripture God's judgment is complete and the sentance pronounced. Jesus us coming and his reward is with him.

This links also with Daniel 7:10 and Daniel 7:26-27 which says...

[10], A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The books [plural] of God's judgment are shown through the scriptures to refer

1. The book of life and
2 the book of remembrance (deeds and acts)

* Rev 3:5; 8; 17:8; 20:12-13; 15; Mal 3:16

links to

[26], But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end. [27], And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

So as you can see through the scriptures here both the judgment and the cleansing of the Sancuary (Day of atonement) happens just before the second coming and not at the ascension of Christs entering the heavenly Sanctuary.

All of the above you have failed to answer. I just wanted to highlight this before talking about Hebrews 9.

..............

Now let's have a look at your application of Hebrews 9:24-25. Despite the above, your claim is that Hebrews 1:3 as well as Hebrews 9:23-25 is a reference to the day of atonement or God's cleansing of the Sanctuary being completed at Christs ascension correct because Jesus is able to enter the Most Holy place.

This was posted from post #193 as requested earlier from you when I said these passages were already discussed. I am reposting it here but will add some extra comments.

I do not disagree that all of heaven is opened to Jesus into the presence of the father. Does this mean that because Jesus has access to the presence of the father that this is referring to the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the great day of atonement?

Absoluetly not! What you are not considering within the scriptures is that not only is Christ our great high priest of a NEW Priesthood who is our sinless sacrifice once and for all sin, but he is also a KING with his own throne who is God. With these thoughts in mind let's examine the scruptures.

God the father proclaims Jesus as KING who has his own throne next to God (Hebrews 1:8). This is clearly outlined in the book of Hebrews.

The reason that Jesus can appear in God's presenece and has access to all of Heaven is because unlike the earthly Priesthood Jesus Priesthood is not of the Levitical order it is of the Malchisedek order (KING of RIGHTEOUSNESS; Priest). Not only is Jesus God, KING and out great high priest he is the perfect sinless sacrifice.

Hebrews 9:23-25 is not talking about the cleansing of the Sanctuary and God's Juddgment it is talking about the role of Jesus and his perfect sacrifice for all sin. Once again we are told in scriptures the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the great day of atonement, does not take place until after the judgment of the little horn (Daniel 7:10; Daniel 8:13-14).

The role of Jesus after his ressurection to the Heavenly Sanctuary was for our sacrifice for sin, ministration of a new covanant as our KING (he has his own throne next to God the father) high priest, and God for judgment who has his own throne next to God the Father (Luke 1:32; Acts 2:30; Hebrews 1:8; Hebrews 12:2; Revelation 4:5. 7:15-17)

Christs priesthood is a NEW Priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-19) not after the earthly levitical order of sinful man but after the order of Malchizedek (means KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; PRIEST) allows him to enter into the presence of God as the sinless sacrifice for all mankind (Hebrews 5:6; 10; 6:20; 7:1-3). This is a different priesthood with a better covenant. He is at the right hand of the throne of God because he is also KING (Hebrews 8:1). Christs sacrifice was once and forever to cover all sin to bring in the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 10:1-14; 15-17).

What you have posted earlier denies the scriptures in relation to Christs complete role which allows him access to ALL of Heaven. He is not only our great high priest from a new Priesthood but also our KING and God.

HEBREWS 8 and HEBREWS 9 explain nicely why the way into the most holy place is opened up. Although it is not saying here that because Jesus sits at the right hand of God that this was in reference to the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the day of Atonement which the earthly was pointing to.

...............

Why the Most Holy place is opened and why it was not opened in the earthly...

The New Priestly Service...

Hebrews 8; Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant...

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The Earthly Sanctuary

Hebrews 9 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

Limitations of the Earthly Service...

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

The Heavenly Sanctuary...

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

...................

* The context and topic spoken of is the perfect sacrifice is Christ for sin. This has nothing to do with the Great day of atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary outlined in Leviticus being fulfilled only the Christs sacrifice is sufficient for all sin and all aspects of the Sanctuary ministration for the atonement for sin.

The role of Jesus after his ressurection to the Heavenly Sanctuary was for our sacrifice for sin, ministration of a new covanant as our high priest, king and God for judgment.

Christs priesthood is a NEW Priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-19) not after the earthly levitical order of sinful man but after the order of Malchizedek (means KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; PRIEST) allows him to enter into the presence of God as the sinless sacrifice for all mankind (Hebrews 5:6; 10; 6:20; 7:1-3. This is a different priesthood with a better covenant. He is at the right hand of the throne of God because he is KING (Hebrews 1:8). Christs sacrifice was once and forever to cover all sin to bring in the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 10:1-14; 15-17).

...................

Now the above scriptures clearly show that the claim that Hebrews 9:23-25 is in reference to the cleansing of the Sanctuary or day of atonement is a false one. They only highlight the role of Christs perfect sacrifice for all sin within the ministration of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Will continue a little further...
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Let's have a quick look at the Greek Word used here in Hebrews 9:24-25 and other parts of Hebrews.

Holy of Holies; Most Holy; Holy place; or Sanctary?

There seems to be some confusion as to the use and application of the correct Greek word for use in reference to the "Most Holy Place" in reference to the Heavenly Sanctuary. Let's have a look at a few examples here.

HEBREWS 8:2 [2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

This is a reference to the "Sanctuary in Heaven" The Greek word here highlighted is "Sanctuary" meaning all of the sanctuary as a whole. The Greek word used here is G39 ἅγιον; hagion; hag'-ee-on; Neuter of G40; a sacred thing (that is, spot): - holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.

This "Sanctuary" is the Great Pattern that Moses was told to make a replica of, for the Earthly Sanctuary (8:5) Ta hagia is quite obviously not "most holy place" in Hebrews 8:2. (2) Hebrews 9:1—"a sanctuary" in the K.J.V. In this one instance ta hagia is given in the singular: "hagion."

As verses 2-5 will show, Paul is speaking in 9:1 of the Earthly Sanctuary—literally, in the Greek, "the Holy Place of this world." (3) Hebrews 9:2—"The Sanctuary." Comparing verse 2 with verses 3-5, we discover that Paul here uses ta hagia for the "First Apartment. "And in verse 3, we learn something very significant, for Paul here gives us the Greek word that he would use in the book of Hebrews for the "Most Holy Place." it is "hagia hagion"—which literally means "holy of holies" (singular holy place of the plural holy places), and is translated as "the holiest of all" in 9:3

This is an important point because, if Paul had wanted to use "Most Holy Place" in 9:8, 12, 24, and 25, Paul would have used the word "hagia hagion" in those verses, but he did not do so. This is important, as your entire argument in Hebrews Nine is based on the supposition that 9:8, 12, 24, and 25 mean "Most Holy Place." You might wonder why in 9:2 Paul called the First Apartment the tabernacle ("sanctuary" in the Greek of 9:2—ta hagia), and in 9:3 he called the Second Apartment the holiest of all ("holy of holies" in the Greek of that verse). Not important as shown through the scriptures earlier Jesus as God and King has access to all of Heaven and the presence of God.

Hebrews 9 is not a reference to Christ conducting the cleansing of the Sanctuary as this did not happen at his ascension as highlighted in the scriptures already.

Most of what you have posted so far has been fully addressed with scriptures showing that the Cleansing of the Sanctuary or the Great day of atonement has not been completed and did not start until well after the establishement of the little horn and NOT at the ascension of Jesus after he died.

You have also not addressed the scriptures referenced in relation to Leviticus 16 and the purpose of the scapegoat and the role of the cleansing of the Sanctuary and removel of sin from the presence of God or have you reconciled this back to Hebrews 9.

More of a side issue but something to think about.

Hope this helps
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It seems that some commentators believe it is a parable and some do not think it is a parable.

For me unless you believe in literal sheep and goats and wheat and tares being saved and separated at the second coming then this is indeed a parable.

The wheat and tares are not mentioned in the passage, and no one has disputed that the wheat and tares are a parable.

The statement that He will divide them as one divides sheep and goats is a simile. It is never called a parable.

If I said that plain is going to fly like a bird through the air, did I tell a parable? No. It is a comparison.

And it is not even if I say "look at that bird fly". It is already clear I am speaking about the plain that I compared to a bird.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello tall,

I see you are trying to use Hebrews 9:23-25 to say that the day of atonement or cleansing of the sanctuary has already taken place? You seem to be moving on to here but you have not addressed the multitude of other questions that we have been discussing ealier that do not agree with your theory here. For instance;

How does the day of atonement differ from the daily ministration. You have been provided scripture that disagrees with your understanding showing that Leviticus 16 is talking about the cleansing and removal of sin from the Sanctuary and God's presence and not only the atonement of sin to God's people.

a. I have already stated that the Day of Atonement deals with the people and the sanctuary. In fact, the very post you were quoting was quoting the type that highlighted both.

b. Hebrews 23-25 is the only place in the NT the cleansing of the heavenly things is specifically addressed. So if your concern is for that, yes, you may want to look at it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You seem to indicated that you did not know what the scapegoat represents.

I indicated that no where is the scapegoat, or associated Greek term, spelled out in the NT.

The New Testament spells out a number of fulfilments of the type. Some have things that are a little surprising to us. If the New Testament gives the fulfillment, we can without a doubt believe that fulfillment.

If it does not then we can predict from the type. But that does not have the same certainty as a New Testament passage.

So for instance, when Paul references Christ our Passover Lamb in I Corinthians 5, it is a plain statement that Jesus fulfilled the OT type of the lamb during Passover.

This is a simple example that we both agree on. But it illustrates the point. If something is spelled out, we know it. If it is not, we may infer. But we cannot say our inferences are on the same level of certainty as Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry tall. No it is not a fulfillment of everything up to the point where the high priest leave the Sanctuary because at this time the anti-type of the day of atonement had not started at the death and resurrection of Christ.

That is your assertion. The text of Hebrews 9:23 directly references the cleansing of the heavenly things. It is the only place in the NT it is spelled out. So for you to assert that it isn't talking about it, when even Adventist scholars admit it is, needs to be explained.

At Christs death and resurrection only Christs completed sacrifice and blood was prepared in preparation for his role as KING and high priest for his role in the heavenly Sanctuary. Christ priesthood and ministration was then to continue.
This again is your statement. But it does not address why it compares the ENTRY (part of the Day of Atonement) of Christ into God's presence, in comparison with the high priest's yearly entry with blood. That is the Day of Atonement. And again, even Adventist scholars have referenced it.

You may not think it should be there, based on your understanding of the type. But it still says it, so you have to look at the NT explanation, instead of what you expect it to be.

 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This was a shadow of the final ministration of God's plan of salvation just prior to the 2nd coming and the completion of the judgment.

And yet you have elements that occur in the first century, or do not at all. And this is the point I am making. You have not actually heard much of anything I have said.

I started out saying I do not think ALL of the Day of Atonement type is fulfilled yet.

I repeat, I do not think all of the Day of Atonement type is fulfilled yet.

So to keep objecting by saying it isn't all fulfilled yet, is to ignore what I am saying.

I think part of it is fulfilled, because the NT says it is. The death of the Sacrifice we both agree is fulfilled. That is a change from what we would expect from the timing of the type being in the fall. But there are still elements that will be fulfilled in that time, such as the scapegoat.

I am contending that the entry and blood ministration was also fulfilled in the first century, as spelled out in Hebrews 9:23-24.

Now whether you think it should be or not, based on your reading of the type, is not the point. You can insist what you think the type means. But if the inspired New Testament author explains it, I will take his explanation of the type, regardless of what you think it should be.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let's have a quick look at the Greek Word used here in Hebrews 9:24-25 and other parts of Hebrews.

Holy of Holies; Most Holy; Holy place; or Sanctary?

There seems to be some confusion as to the use and application of the correct Greek word for use in reference to the "Most Holy Place" in reference to the Heavenly Sanctuary. Let's have a look at a few examples here.

HEBREWS 8:2 [2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

This is a reference to the "Sanctuary in Heaven" The Greek word here highlighted is "Sanctuary" meaning all of the sanctuary as a whole. The Greek word used here is G39 ἅγιον; hagion; hag'-ee-on; Neuter of G40; a sacred thing (that is, spot): - holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.

This "Sanctuary" is the Great Pattern that Moses was told to make a replica of, for the Earthly Sanctuary (8:5) Ta hagia is quite obviously not "most holy place" in Hebrews 8:2. (2) Hebrews 9:1—"a sanctuary" in the K.J.V. In this one instance ta hagia is given in the singular: "hagion."

As verses 2-5 will show, Paul is speaking in 9:1 of the Earthly Sanctuary—literally, in the Greek, "the Holy Place of this world." (3) Hebrews 9:2—"The Sanctuary." Comparing verse 2 with verses 3-5, we discover that Paul here uses ta hagia for the "First Apartment. "And in verse 3, we learn something very significant, for Paul here gives us the Greek word that he would use in the book of Hebrews for the "Most Holy Place." it is "hagia hagion"—which literally means "holy of holies" (singular holy place of the plural holy places), and is translated as "the holiest of all" in 9:3

This is an important point because, if Paul had wanted to use "Most Holy Place" in 9:8, 12, 24, and 25, Paul would have used the word "hagia hagion" in those verses, but he did not do so. This is important, as your entire argument in Hebrews Nine is based on the supposition that 9:8, 12, 24, and 25 mean "Most Holy Place."

No, I have not asserted that ta hagia means "most holy place."

Its use is determined by context, but usually refers to the whole sanctuary.

And of course, I noted Adventist scholars who agree 9:23-25 are a reference to the Day of Atonement--why? Because of context.

Most of what you have posted so far has been fully addressed with scriptures showing that the Cleansing of the Sanctuary or the Great day of atonement has not been completed and did not start until well after the establishement of the little horn and NOT at the ascension of Jesus after he died.
The entirety of the Day of Atonement did not happen all at once. That is what you are failing to deal with.

The sacrifice happened in the first century. That means you cannot dismiss texts that speak about other elements happening in the first century, because they don't fit your notions of when you think it should happen.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. Before the cleansing of the Sanctuary begins the high priest brings his own sin offerings,
gets dressed into his high priest robes (Leviticus 16:3-4)
I think we both agree He does not need to offer for Himself, being sinless.

2. At the beginning of the cleansing of the Sanctuary the goats are selected, one as a sin offering and one as a burnt offering before any cleansing takes place. (Leviticus 16:5)

True. And when do you propose God selected Christ to be the sin offering? Do you think that will be in 1844? It cannot be, He was already offered.

And do you think God did not know then who would be the goat for Azazel in the first century?

Do you think God cast lots, to decide that Jesus would die for your sins, rather than Satan?

Are you saying Satan was a sinless being, qualified to be a sin offering?

Please clarify your point in bolding selected.


3. The high priest after getting dressed then offers his own sin offerings (point one) for himself and his household (Leviticus 16:6)


4. At this time the two goats are brought in to the pesence of God and lot's are cast to choose which goat will be the sin offering and which goat would be the scapegoat (Leviticus 16:7-8)

5. The Lord's lot falls on the one goat which is the sin offering and is offered as a sin offereing (Leviticus 16:7-9)

6. The other lot falls on the other goat which is the scapegoat. This goat is brought alive before the presence of the Lord to make atonement with God in preparation to be let go into the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:10)

This is a summary of the process. The live goat is not released or sins transferred until after the work in the sanctuary is complete, as the rest of the chapter outlines, and as is referenced in the "shall" of Lev. 16:10.


And when was Jesus selected? Before the foundation of the world.

I Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.



 
  • Winner
Reactions: bugkiller
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
7. Then the sin all the sin offerings are killed and the blood brought into the Most Holy place with the incense sensor into the presence of God (Leviticus 16:11-15)

Hebrews describes this taking place in the past tense.

You agree that the death already took place.

But the entry into God's presence to present Himself also took place. And it is in the context of the cleansing of the heavenly things, and compared to the entry of the high priest yearly with blood:

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are k]">[k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Places every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

8. The atonement or cleansing of the Sanctuary is made is made for the Holy place and the tabernacle of meeting because of the sin of God's people (Cleansing of the Sanctuary). * Leviticus 16:16

Yes, now let's look at the text, instead of just summarizing it:


15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.

So the high priest was cleansing the heavenly things while in the sanctuary.

What does Hebrews say Jesus did?

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should bepurified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Places every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

He did this already.


He was already chosen.
He already sacrificed
He already entered God's presence in our behalf and offered Himself, the completed sacrifice.
This was necessary because of the cleansing of the heavenly things needing that better sacrifice, which He already presented.

9. Atonement is made for himself and all of God's people, no one to enter the tabernacle of meeting untill finished (Leviticus 16:11-17)

Agreed.

10. Cleansing of the Sanctuary continues with the Altar that is before the LORD which is made unclean by the sins of God's people throughout the year (Leviticus 16:18)

When do you propose that He does this?
And if you think it is when He leaves the sanctuary, then how does that relate to 1844?

11. After the high priest finishes cleansing the Holy place, the tabernacle of meeting and the alter the high priest brings in the live goat and lay his hands on the goats head confessing ALL THE SIN OF GOD'S PEOPLE putting them on the head of the scapegoat for the removal of sin from the presence of God and final cleansing of sin from the Sanctuary. The goat is then taken away into the wilderness to a place not inhabited by a strong man, where the goat bears all the sins of God's people commited throughout the year. (Leviticus 16:20-22)

Clearly not happened yet. We agree.

You know what else we haven't seen yet? Anything about books.

The priest in the sanctuary made a cleansing application of blood for the cleansing of sin and the cleansing of the heavenly things. It has nothing to do with books.

What Jesus did in Hebrews is exactly what the high priest did in the type--

death, entry, presentation before God with the completed sacrifice

What Jesus does in your version of the type is--books--which are nowhere mentioned in the type.

And this is the problem. When Hiram Edson first had his vision in the cornfield he perceived that the sanctuary to be cleansed was not the earth, as Miller had thought, but the heavenly sanctuary. Well that is true enough. However, they thought this would be quick. In fact, there was a brief time where they all thought the door was shut to others completely who had not responded to the message of Miller.

When it was not quick they later came up with the notion of what was taking so long--Ellen White was the first to reference the reviewing of the cases of each person.

But the type does not picture the high priest doing that in the sanctuary. You just reviewed what he did. He sacrificed the animal, he took in the blood, he went into God's presence.

Nothing there about books. Nothing there about investigation. Nothing there at all to justify what the Adventist pioneers turned the type into in order to justify the delay of Jesus' coming.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

12.
After the cleansing of the Sanctuary the high priest takes off his linen garments worn in the Holy place and leaves them there and moves into the tabernacle of meeting where he washes himself gets dressed and offers burnt offerings for himself an the people of God to make final atonement after the cleansing of the Sanctuary. (Leviticus 16:23-24)

Agreed. But we would also agree that the sacrifice here was fulfilled by Christ's one death, correct?


13. The Atonement is not just for God's people for ALL their sin committed throughout the year, but also for the Sanctuary that is why the purpose of the day of Atonement is also for the cleansing (atonement) of the Sanctuary and the removal of all the sins of God's people commtted throughout the year from the prescence of God (Leviticus 16:33; 6; 8; 20-22).

Agreed. Which is why you ought to look when Hebrews describes cleansing of the heavenly things in the first century:

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.


He will soon leave the sanctuary, and perform the goat for azazel portoin.

 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because it makes no sense in the light of what has been presented in this thread as evidence for the OP, on the points at issue.

I would say a New Testament passage that describes the cleansing of the heavenly things in terms of an entry and presentation in God's presence explains things well.

That is what actually happened in the type as well....

death
entry and presentation in God's presence.

There were no books, no investigation going on in the sanctuary.

Then the high priest would leave the sanctuary and perform the goat for azazel portion, which we agree is yet to occur.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When is this to start?

DANIEL 8:13-14 [13], Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Relates to the activity of the little horn, not the Day of Atonement.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
31,979
5,834
Visit site
✟867,956.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why is Christ is NOT the Scapegoat?



Why not just make a list of reasons you responded to what I didn't say?

I spelled out my current view of what the goat for azazel is, and did not say it was Christ.

I also mentioned, it is simply inference from the type either way, so I cannot be dogmatic. But to ignore what I actually said, and argue against something I didn't advocate in the first place seems rather strange.
 
Upvote 0