God's intention?

[armothe]

Where did the evil that Satan produced in his heart come from?

Satan was created by God to be an adversary to men. Satan didn't have a 'heart' persay, nor was he evil. He was just at tool used to accomplish the will of God when needed.

-A

 

[Tavita]

Satan was created by God to be an adversary to men. Satan didn't have a 'heart' persay, nor was he evil. He was just at tool used to accomplish the will of God when needed.

-A

I would rather call him the Adversary. And yes, I agree, he is a tool used for God's purposes in the earth.

Do you see the passage in Isaiah 14 as being about Satan's (the Adversary) fall from heaven?

 

[armothe]

Do you see the passage in Isaiah 14 as being about Satan's (the Adversary) fall from heaven?

Well, Isaiah 14 refers to the Day Star (not really Satan) and in context speaks about the downfall of the nation of Babylon at the time Israel would be returning from exodus. Read all of chapter 13 & 14 and you'll see that any reference to Satan just isn't there.

-A

 

[Tavita]

Well, Isaiah 14 refers to the Day Star (not really Satan) and in context speaks about the downfall of the nation of Babylon at the time Israel would be returning from exodus. Read all of chapter 13 & 14 and you'll see that any reference to Satan just isn't there.

-A

That's what I thought, it's a subject I'd like to look into a bit more.

 

[Reformationist]

I believe that man "works" for his salvation. Salvation is not imposed upon him in spite of himself as Augustine of Hippo's and John Calvin's doctrine of predestination would have it, nor is it obtained solely by the endeavors of human will, as Pelagius taught. Salvation is synergetic; that is, man co-operates in the work of his salvation. God does not take upon Himself the role that belongs to man; likewise, man can attain nothing by his own efforts alone, neither by his virtue, nor by observing the commandments, nor by a good disposition. None of these things have any value for salvation except in the context of Divine Grace, for salvation cannot be purchased. Man's labors and the keeping of the commandments only demonstrate his will and resolve to be with God, his desire and love for God. Man cannot accomplish his part of co-operation in his salvation by his own power, however small this part may be, and he must entreat God to grant him the strength and grace necessary to accomplish it. If he perceives that he does not even wish his own salvation, he must ask to receive this desire from God "Who gives to all men and disregards none." For this reason, without despising man's role, we say that we receive "grace for grace" (John 1:16) and that to approach and enter the Church is according to the Fathers, "the grace given before grace," since in reality all is grace. This is the true meaning of the words of the Holy Fathers, "although it be a question of grace, yet grace is granted only to those who are worthy of it" indicating by the word "worthy" the exercise of our freedom of will to ask all things from God.
I believe that man is natural virtue—whatever its degree—cannot save a man and bring him to eternal life. The Scriptures teach: "All our righteousness is like unto a menstrual rag" (Isaiah 64:6). The fulfillment of the works of the Law does not permit us to demand or to merit something from God. Not only do we have no merits or supererogatory works, but Jesus Christ enjoins us that when we have fulfilled all the works of the Law, we should esteem ourselves as nothing but "unprofitable servants" (Luke 17:10). Without Jesus Christ, a man's personal virtue, his repute, his personal value, his work, his talents and his faculties matter but little. They matter only insofar as they test his devotion and faith in God. Our faith in Jesus Christ is not an abstraction but rather a communion with Him. This communion fills us with the power of the Holy Spirit and our faith becomes a fertile reality which engenders good works in us as the Scriptures attest "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). Thus, according to the Apostles, faith engenders true works; and true works, which are the fruit of the Holy Spirit, bear witness and prove the existence of a true faith. Since faith is neither abstract nor sterile, it is impossible to dissociate it from good works. It was by this same faith in the same Jesus Christ that the righteous of the Old Testament (who are venerated to the same degree as the other saints in the Orthodox Church) were saved, and not because of their legalistic or disciplinary observance of the Law. Faith is also a gift of God, and a man relying on his own efforts, his own piety, or his own spirituality, cannot of himself possess this faith. Yet faith is not imposed: to those who desire it, God grants it, not because of a fatalistic predestination, but because of His Divine foreknowledge and His disposition to co-operate with man's free will. If God has given us faith, we must not think ourselves better than others, nor superior or more worthy than them, nor should we think that we have received it because of our own merits, but we should attribute this favor to the goodness of God Whose reasons escape us. We must thank Him by bowing down before the mystery of this privilege and be conscious that one of the attributes of faith is the "lack of curiosity." It is neither works nor faith, but only the Living God Who saves us.

Um...Kristos, there is not a single thing in your entire post that, in any way, even remotely answers the question I asked about God's intention regarding the existence of evil. Did you mean for this post to be in a different thread and placed it here inadvertently?

I pray that you did not presume that your explanation of salvation and your dismissal of reformed doctrine was appropriate simply because you are aware that I am a reformed Christian.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I voted yes, God did intend evil to exist. Otherwise God is not omnipotent or sovereign.

However, I don't believe God is the perpetrator of evil. He created it and told us not to use it. Which we then did of course. He has a use for evil, but that doesn't mean we are allowed to use the evil. God did not put the evil He created into man's mind or heart, man did that himself by disobeying and eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He died spiritually and became carnal.. of the flesh... like the tree.

There is a bigger picture though. He wanted man to have the same nature as Himself. He planned the fall as the means towards that end.

2Pe 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

Thanks Tavita. That seems to be a very sound answer.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

This is a paradox. How could a God who is GOOD create evil?

Well, paradox though you may believe it to be, it was God who established His law and, in doing so, established what was unlawful. We are creatures of contrast and speak in such terms. Evil isn't independent of good. It relies on it for its substance, i.e., evil is the lack of good, just as dark is the lack of light.

Maybe we could further this by you helping us out with how you define evil?

Everything that God created is good.

"Good" is not a description of the creations' intrinsic quality. Rather, it is "good" because it is purposed by God for His purposes, which are surely "good." In this sense, even the Fall, the most catastrophic event in human history, is good. Even satan is good by this standard.

This is not a barrier to God. He is everywhere and in everything. Evil is not a creation, it is our disobedience.

"Disobedience" is that which is not obedience. Once again, the term relies on its opposite for any substance. "Obedience," however, is that which conforms to the Law of God. It was God who established His Law and, in doing so, created that which is not obedience or, rather, disobedience.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

The answer to the question is that God didn't intend there to be Evil. Rather, He intended that mankind have free will, of which he knew both Good and Evil would manifest.

-A

Not only does this raise serious implications about what Heaven will be like and God's impotence to bring history to pass as He has decreed, it is biblically untenable. You are contending that disobedience is an unavoidable and inherent element of creation, which is absolutely false. You limit the options to a strawman, i.e., God's choices for creation included creating man without free will, thereby ensuring compliance, or, creating man with free will and accepting the unavoidable result.

The biblical truth is that Adam could have obeyed, and I believe, quite easily. The fact that he chose to disobey does not imply that evil must manifest as much as it acknowledges that disobedience could be made manifest.

I'm curious. You say, "He [God] intended that mankind have free will, of which he [God] knew both Good and Evil would manifest."

Now, the first red flag that is raised in my mind may have been unintentional on your part but it appears that you are purporting that God's knowledge of what would manifest, i.e, "good and evil," was outside of His purview of sovereign government. That is, He simply "knew" what would manifest but could not sovereignly decree and govern what comes to pass. This is at odds with the entirity of Scripture so, hopefully, you will see it as a position you should cast aside. Additionally, I would love to know how you feel this impacts our nature in Heaven? To be consistant, you would have to contend either that man does not have free will in Heaven or that there will be evil in Heaven due to man's free will.

Care to enlighten me on that?

God bless

 

[armothe]

it appears that you are purporting that God's knowledge of what would manifest, i.e, "good and evil," was outside of His purview of sovereign government. That is, He simply "knew" what would manifest but could not sovereignly decree and govern what comes to pass.

Okay, God decreed that by free will existing (of which is one of His attributes as well), both good and evil would manifest themselves.

To be consistant, you would have to contend either that man does not have free will in Heaven or that there will be evil in Heaven due to man's free will.

Hey Reformist, how about this - no sin to contend with in Heaven. Couldn't sin if we wanted to. Doesn't give us any less of a 'free will'.

-A

 

[Reformationist]

Okay, God decreed that by free will existing (of which is one of His attributes as well), both good and evil would manifest themselves.

While I loathe the term "free will" because it implies far too much for a creature that is bound by its nature, man's will is "free" only until it butts against the sovereign plan of God. Then, it yields. I acknowledge that it was most certainly God's plan that both good and evil be made manifest. With that said, it invalidates your previous claim. If God decreed that through the freely wrought works of man evil would arise, then it was certainly His plan that it do so, for that which comes to pass is most certainly what God has decreed.

Hey Calvinist, how about this - no sin to contend with in Heaven. Couldn't sin if we wanted to. Doesn't give us any less of a 'free will'.

First, if this is directed at me, I'll ask that you address me by my username, not what you ignorantly feel is a derrogatory term. Secondly, why is it that there will be no sin with which to contend in Heaven?

God bless

 

[armothe]

First, if this is directed at me, I'll ask that you address me by my username, not what you ignorantly feel is a derrogatory term.

Sorry, I mean't to use your username but occasionally I mistake the one for the other.

While I loathe the term "free will" because it implies far too much for a creature that is bound by its nature, man's will is "free" only until it butts against the sovereign plan of God.

That is an adequate explanation; however, I believe that free will is at the core of man's nature - the ability to make cogniscent decisions that have not been pre-ordained. But as you said at the point our will conflicts with God's then there is intervention. The Bible has exaples of this.

I acknowledge that it was most certainly God's plan that both good and evil be made manifest. With that said, it invalidates your previous claim. If God decreed that through the freely wrought works of man evil would arise, then it was certainly His plan that it do so, for that which comes to pass is most certainly what God has decreed.

I believe there is a difference between intending something to happen, and it happening as a result of something else you intended.

In otherwords I don't think God stood at a microphone and decreed that evil was to inhabit His creation; rather He realized that evil was a necessary by-product of free will, so He designed a specific purpose for evil to play in His greater plan.

Secondly, why is it that there will be no sin with which to contend in Heaven?

Honestly, none of us really know exactly what Heaven is like, other than that God resides there. I don't think God can live where sin exists - seeing is how He sent a savior to cleanse us so He could dwell within us. Thus, I can't imagine there is sin in Heaven.

-A

 

[Reformationist]

Sorry, I mean't to use your username but occasionally I mistake the one for the other.

I'm sure when you wrote this you thought it was witty. Let me assure you, it smacks of immaturity and ignorance. I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian. I follow Christ, not Calvin. If my views align with Calvin then I pray that those views of his which I share align with the truth revealed in God's Word, that we are both blessed of God. You seem more interested in pigeon holing me than in simply discussing the issue before us. If that is your intent I encourage you to scurry off and go play with the other kids, for this was intended to be an adult conversation.

That is an adequate explanation; however, I believe that free will is at the core of man's nature - the ability to make cogniscent decisions that have not been pre-ordained. But as you said at the point our will conflicts with God's then there is intervention. The Bible has exaples of this.

I don't know what the word "cogniscent" means but if you were contending that man had the capacity of cognition, I would certainly agree. Man was created as a volitional creature and, as such, makes decisions, and these according to his greatest desire or inclination. With that said, God is both omniscient and sovereign. To speak of the passage of any event as if it happened independent of God's decree, in some fashion, is to deny one, or both, of those traits. By His very nature, God must play a role in all that comes to pass. If something happens that is contrary to what God has revealed in His Law, it does not preclude God's foreordination. It appears that you are confusing the foreordination of a sovereign God with causation. God does not move the hand of man to do what he does but, as God is omnipotent, He surely has the power to stop whatsoever He will. His sovereign choice to refrain from stopping something from coming to pass often confuses us but we should never presume that God dropped the ball or that God was, in no way, involved. God is clear that He works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph 1:11). There is no purpose of God that can be withheld from Him (Job 42:2). The logical answer to the passage of events that we recognize violate the perceptive will of God is that these events, unlawful though they may be, are purposed, from their inception, to establish God's plan. The OT story of Joseph is, in my opinion, the most profound example of God's concurrent government of all things, including the wickedness of man. Joseph recognized this when he stated to his brothers, "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good." It doesn't relay that Joseph's brothers actions, though wicked, were not foreordained, nor does it indicate that God, in response, merely converted their evil works into a good purpose. God purposed the freely willed, wicked choices of Joseph's brothers to save lives. Were their choices freely made? Of course. Were they foreordained? Without a doubt.

I believe there is a difference between intending something to happen, and it happening as a result of something else you intended.

Great. I agree. In the case of God, however, there is nothing that happens, either directly or "as a result of something else," for which God has not made provision.

Just so I'm clear, are you contending that things happen which God never planned on happening? If so, what is God doing, scrambling around trying to make up for these unfortunate and unforseen circumstances?

In otherwords I don't think God stood at a microphone and decreed that evil was to inhabit His creation; rather He realized that evil was a necessary by-product of free will, so He designed a specific purpose for evil to play in His greater plan.

Once again, you show the shortsightedness of your position. You make the unfounded claim that "free will is a necessary by-product of free will." Did our Lord not have free will yet was without sin? Will we have free will in Heaven? Your response to this is inadequate. You claim there will be no sin in Heaven with which to contend. Your further claim that we "couldn't sin if we wanted to." What you overlook is that sin is born in the heart of a man. The reason we can't sin in Heaven is because we are cleansed from all iniquity and, like our Savior, will never want to sin.

Honestly, none of us really know exactly what Heaven is like, other than that God resides there. I don't think God can live where sin exists - seeing is how He sent a savior to cleanse us so He could dwell within us. Thus, I can't imagine there is sin in Heaven.

Um...I'm not sure where you got the idea that God cannot reside in the presence of sin. Did not God Himself be made manifest in the flesh and dwell among us? Is not God omnipresent? In Job we read of direct contact between God and satan himself who is surely the embodiment of evil. Care to revise this claim?

God bless

 

[armothe]

In Job we read of direct contact between God and satan himself who is surely the embodiment of evil.

I said God cannot be in the presence of sin, not Satan.

Care to revise this claim?

No, I sure don't. Nothing you said made much sense to me anyways.

-A

 

[Reformationist]

I said God cannot be in the presence of sin, not Satan.

As I said, which you either overlooked or ignored, God is omnipresent. Therefore, He is in the presence of sin so long as there is sin. I had thought that my reference to satan and the Book of Job, which I had clearly, though erroneously, presumed you'd acknowledge as a direct confrontation between God, whom you contend cannot be in the presence of sin, and satan, who is the embodiment of sin, was enough. My apologies for being so obvious. It must have confused you.

No, I sure don't. Nothing you said made much sense to me anyways.

-A

Well, let me be the first to thank you for your well thought out and exhaustive reply. It warms my heart to know that I spent the time I did to address your post in its entirity to have you respond in such a thorough way.

 

[Spade48d]

I am currently participating in a different thread in which one participant stated that "God never intended evil to exist." I'm curious if anyone agrees with that.

If so, please explain your position.

Thanks,
God bless

Hello,

I voted yes simply because Isaiah 45:7 says that God created evil.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

 

[armothe]

As I said, which you either overlooked or ignored, God .... My apologies for being so obvious. It must have confused you.

Well, let me be the first to thank you for your well thought out and exhaustive reply. It warms my heart to know that I spent the time I did to address your post in its entirity to have you respond in such a thorough way.

Oh! Now I remember why I "pigeon-holed" you as a Calvinist! Could it possibly be the arrogance & ignorance oozing from your mouth that gave it away?

Since you couldn't seem to catch onto my hint earlier - I don't care to have a discussion with you on this topic. You can't even shelf your condescending for a moment to accurately quote my position. We'll just chalk it up to your sin nature, eh?

You make the unfounded claim that "free will is a necessary by-product of free will."

-A

 

[armothe]

I voted yes simply because Isaiah 45:7 says that God created evil. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

In my studies I've found the translation to mean calamity, distress or grief; which is entirely different than the evil or wickedness of sin. Otherwise the passage would translate that God is wicked & sinful Himself.

Reformist had a good thought that perhaps the term 'evil' needs to be better defined in this thread.

-A

 

[Tavita]

I said God cannot be in the presence of sin, not Satan.

Hi armothe,

I did a little research concerning God not being in the presence of sin and found these two verses (for a start)...

JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44).

It says 'from the beginning', Satan did not abide in the truth. So he couldn't be the one spoken of in Isaiah 14. God created ALL things.. in the beginning.

"He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8)

And here we have the Apostle John saying that Satan sinned from the beginning.

When the scriptures speak of the beginning, it speaks of Genesis.. the beginnings.

So, Satan, the adversary was created as a murderer and a sinner from the beginning, and stands before God as the accuser of the brethren. Therefore, if he stands before God who dwells in heaven, then this false belief we hold that sin cannot be in the presence of God must be wrong.

 

[Tavita]

In my studies I've found the translation to mean calamity, distress or grief; which is entirely different than the evil or wickedness of sin. Otherwise the passage would translate that God is wicked & sinful Himself.

Reformist had a good thought that perhaps the term 'evil' needs to be better defined in this thread.

-A

Yes, I've heard you can put that word 'calamity' in there too. But that word for evil, or calamity in Hebrew is:

ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

I do admit that calamity is the best word to use in the verse in Isaiah 45:7.

The point is that the word 'ra' is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing in more than five hundred instances. For example:

Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be EVIL in a city, and THE LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"

 

[armothe]

I do admit that calamity is the best word to use in the verse in Isaiah 45:7.

I had a chance to study a bit of Hebrew under a Rabbi that was affiliated with my alma mater and its utterly amazing the numerous meanings a single Hebrew word has.

Nevertheless, when Isaiah states that God is the creator of 'rah' and that he authors 'rah' we fall into conflict if we translate that wicked or sin. We can say with a certain amount of confidence that God does not author sin and most certainly does not tempt us.

RE: Amos - the version (NASB) I have renders it calamity. Youngs Literal translates it as affliction.

If I can segway into another recent thread, it has been discussed that sin originates from two different places, in the heart of man, and Satan. We see a few examples of Satan being the tempter of man in the bible, but it goes without saying that most sin originates from within man him/herself (James 1:14-15) (especially since Satan is not omnipresent). So have a hard time accepting that God orchestrates the evils of sin & wickedness

-A