God's intention?

[Tavita]

Hi armothe,

I did a little research concerning God not being in the presence of sin and found these two verses (for a start)...

JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44).

It says 'from the beginning', Satan did not abide in the truth. So he couldn't be the one spoken of in Isaiah 14. God created ALL things.. in the beginning.

"He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8)

And here we have the Apostle John saying that Satan sinned from the beginning.

When the scriptures speak of the beginning, it speaks of Genesis.. the beginnings.

So, Satan, the adversary was created as a murderer and a sinner from the beginning, and stands before God as the accuser of the brethren. Therefore, if he stands before God who dwells in heaven, then this false belief we hold that sin cannot be in the presence of God must be wrong.

If I can segway into another recent thread, it has been discussed that sin originates from two different places, in the heart of man, and Satan. We see a few examples of Satan being the tempter of man in the bible, but it goes without saying that most sin originates from within man him/herself (James 1:14-15) (especially since Satan is not omnipresent). So have a hard time accepting that God orchestrates the evils of sin & wickedness

To add to my post above and to yours. God created Satan or the Adversary 'from the beginning', he was a murderer and SINNER from the beginning. Adam was not created a sinner from the beginning. After he was created, he walked with God in the garden, named everything, Eve was brought from his side, and then, Satan, who had sinned from the beginning tempted them into sin. Sin did not originate with Adam and Eve.

 

[armothe]

JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44).

I agree with this. God created Satan to be an adversary of man (although we aren't exactly sure when he was created - some lore puts him created on the 6th day the same time as Eve).

An adversary is defined as someone or something who opposes or even prosecutes. We see the Hebrew word for adversary (Satan) used in Numbers 22:22:
"And God's anger was kindled because he [Balaam] went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary [Hebrew: Satan] against him."

In which case an adversary isn't always evil, simply in opposition to; so we have to be careful what traits we inherently assign to a single being of adversity (pointy tails, horns, lives in fire).

"He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8)

Again, my only suggestion is to do a word study on Satan (adversary) and Devil and try to piece things together, paying specific attention to the tone of the Old Testament versus New (the difference is astounding).

At least to me it becomes evident that these references aren't always speaking of a single sentient being. People and Nations are called 'Satan' or referred to as Devils. Satan has a throne in Jerusalem. Illnesses are referred to as demons. Did Satan sin? When? Did Satan commit murder? When?

Therefore, if he stands before God who dwells in heaven, then this false belief we hold that sin cannot be in the presence of God must be wrong.

My rebuttal to this would ask the question "What was the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice if not to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"? What would have been the purpose if God could simply live alongside of sin?

-A

 

[armothe]

At first it might seem that if God created all things then (sin) evil must have been created by God. However, there is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up. Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil. Rather, evil is something that occurs. Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed humans to choose good or non-good (evil).

Just as cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light; evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He allows evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil mankind would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether we wanted to serve Him or not.

Hope this clarifies my position.

-A

 

[Spade48d]

At first it might seem that if God created all things then (sin) evil must have been created by God. However, there is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up. Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil. Rather, evil is something that occurs. Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed humans to choose good or non-good (evil).

Just as cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light; evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He allows evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil mankind would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether we wanted to serve Him or not.

Hope this clarifies my position.

-A

Hello armothe,

Let me see if I got this correct. You believe that Isaiah 45:7 is technically wrong where it says that God created darkness. Your position is that it probably should read God formed light and that resulted in or caused darkness. Also, God made peace but didn't create adversity/calamity/evil because it only resulted in or was caused by Him making peace.

Did I get your position correct?

 

[Reformationist]

Oh! Now I remember why I "pigeon-holed" you as a Calvinist! Could it possibly be the arrogance & ignorance oozing from your mouth that gave it away?

I don't think so. As you so clearly demonstrate, arrogance and ignorance are not exclusive to Calvinists. You would have done better to call me an "armothe."

Since you couldn't seem to catch onto my hint earlier - I don't care to have a discussion with you on this topic.

Is someone making you reply? If you truly don't want to have a conversation, feel free to discontinue your participation. It seems a bit ridiculous for you to post in this thread for the purpose of letting me know that you don't want to post in this thread. I started this thread so I'll stick around. Don't worry, there are plenty of other people on this MB that you can annoy.

You can't even shelf your condescending for a moment to accurately quote my position. We'll just chalk it up to your sin nature, eh?

Once again, realize that no one is forcing you to continue participating. If you view me with such disdain, by all means, find the door marked exit and move along and let me be the one to wish you Godspeed.

 

[armothe]

It seems a bit ridiculous for you to post in this thread for the purpose of letting me know that you don't want to post in this thread.

No, I posted that I do not want to discuss the topic with you, specifically. Everyone else here has been quite cordial and I plan to continue to discuss with them. Thank you for the insults!

-A

 

[Reformationist]

No, I posted that I do not want to discuss the topic with you, specifically. Everyone else here has been quite cordial and I plan to continue to discuss with them. Thank you for the insults!

-A

You know, people often get on a roll with their responses and, especially in arguments, they often forget how that argument started. I thought maybe I had fallen prey to that very thing. So, I started at the beginning and looked at every interaction between you and I. Do you know where I saw the first instance of derision? I'll give you a hint...it wasn't from a comment I made. Not enough? Here's another hint: "Hey Calvinist, how about this..." Now, in spite of the explicitly derrogatory usage of this label, I didn't initially fall prey to your immaturity. I simply responded by telling you, quite plainly, "if this [term] is directed at me, I'll ask that you address me by my username, not what you ignorantly feel is a derrogatory term." You further complicate the discussion with yet another snide comment with a facade of innocence, "Sorry, I mean't to use your username but occasionally I mistake the one for the other." You and I both know, as long as you're being honest, that this was yet another attempt by you to be condescending and arrogant.

We BOTH descended into provacative speech from there so it might be a good idea to stop blaming me for this dispute being that, one, I'm not responsible for your behavior and, two, you were the first one to engage in petty and immature comments.

 

[armothe]

Hello armothe, Let me see if I got this correct. You believe that Isaiah 45:7 is technically wrong where it says that God created darkness. Your position is that it probably should read God formed light and that resulted in or caused darkness.

If we are speaking of physical darkness (which I don't believe Isaiah is referencing) we read in Genesis that darkness always existed. It was God who created light and set it apart from darkness (light is absence of darkness). So we are really left guessing on how physical darkness was created.

Also, God made peace but didn't create adversity/calamity/evil because it only resulted in or was caused by Him making peace. Did I get your position correct?

I'm sorry if I wasn't more effective at communicating my position.

Morally speaking, God is 100% good. I do not believe He has the capability of being wicked due to His divine nature (Hab. 1:13).

This does not mean that He can not be involved on our affairs whether it be bringing peace or calamity. Nor can we claim:
peace = moral good
calamity = moral evil

God built this universe flawlessly. If it were not for plate tectonics the earth would destroy itself. Yet such movements cause Tsunamis that kill thousands of people each year. Likewise, we see God using nature to bring calamity upon people & nations. The plagues of Egypt and distress on Job come to mind. Whereas these are tragic events, they are not wicked acts from God.

So did God intend there to be calamity? Yes
Did God intend there to be evil? He knew that by giving mankind a choice that a lack of good/puruity would exist. If that is a yes, then so be it.

"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13).

-A

 

[Kristos]

God is often described as darkness:

Exo 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

Deu 5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;

The Divine Darkness. The ineffable.

 

[Spade48d]

If we are speaking of physical darkness (which I don't believe Isaiah is referencing) we read in Genesis that darkness always existed. It was God who created light and set it apart from darkness (light is absence of darkness). So we are really left guessing on how physical darkness was created.



I'm sorry if I wasn't more effective at communicating my position.

Morally speaking, God is 100% good. I do not believe He has the capability of being wicked due to His divine nature (Hab. 1:13).

This does not mean that He can not be involved on our affairs whether it be bringing peace or calamity. Nor can we claim:
peace = moral good
calamity = moral evil

God built this universe flawlessly. If it were not for plate tectonics the earth would destroy itself. Yet such movements cause Tsunamis that kill thousands of people each year. Likewise, we see God using nature to bring calamity upon people & nations. The plagues of Egypt and distress on Job come to mind. Whereas these are tragic events, they are not wicked acts from God.

So did God intend there to be calamity? Yes
Did God intend there to be evil? He knew that by giving mankind a choice that a lack of good/puruity would exist. If that is a yes, then so be it.

"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13).

-A

Hello Armothe,

Thanks. That spells it out for me.

I was just wondering how we can know that the universe is flawless. It is quite conceivable to me He put some flaws in it. Genesis points out that creation was good. It didn't say it was perfect.

I am still looking at this and am not convinced yet that God did not create evil as part of His plan for us to learn from evil what is good and from that learning how to give Him proper worship and glory. I am certainly not saying or even implying that there is any part of God that is evil. I am not certain that you would be correct if you apply the concepts of good and evil to God. Those concepts would apply to what was going on in His creations and are conceptualizations of men. Speaking of God in terms of holiness to me makes more sense to me. I don't know if I can be clearer but will try if this confuses things.

 

[satrunstar]

No I don't believe that evil was part of Gods plan. He can not stand the apperance of evil. Not only that didn't he creat us to worship him and his desire for us was to have companionship with him? If this is the case and he can not allow sin in his presance than he would not have created evil. Adam and Eve walked flawlessly beside him naked and vulnarable and yet they walk beside him and talked with him and worshiped him and he was right their.

 

[Spade48d]

No I don't believe that evil was part of Gods plan. He can not stand the apperance of evil. Not only that didn't he creat us to worship him and his desire for us was to have companionship with him? If this is the case and he can not allow sin in his presance than he would not have created evil. Adam and Eve walked flawlessly beside him naked and vulnarable and yet they walk beside him and talked with him and worshiped him and he was right their.

Hello Saturnstar,

Do you really believe that Adam was flawless and incorruptible, and immortal? He may not have been corrupted at first but he was certainly corruptible. If not, then why did he disobey? If he was incorruptible then "Satan" would have no sway, would he?

The question I have always had certainly relates to a view similar to yours that I was taught. If Adam and Eve were flawless and immortal then why was there a tree of life in the garden? The tree of life is symbolic of Christ and eternal life.

I believe that Adam was mortal and that eating of the tree of life is what would make him immortal. Symbolically, we must eat of the fruit of the tree of life also. We must be reborn in Christ to actually achieve an image and likeness of God through Christ.

 

[armothe]

I was just wondering how we can know that the universe is flawless. It is quite conceivable to me He put some flaws in it. Genesis points out that creation was good. It didn't say it was perfect.

Flaws like the Australian Platypus? Seriously though, flaws are disharmonious and would be considered 'bad' (not 'good') by any engineer. Not to mention who are we to call something a flaw without fully understanding the reason behind it (black holes?).

I am still looking at this and am not convinced yet that God did not create evil as part of His plan for us to learn from evil what is good and from that learning how to give Him proper worship and glory.

I think God did have a plan for evil, but just like the physical darkness, I don't see anywhere the Word claims God to have created it (evil/wickedness).

-A

 

[armothe]

Do you really believe that Adam was flawless and incorruptible, and immortal? He may not have been corrupted at first but he was certainly corruptible.

Is having the ability to be corrupt the same as being corrupt?

-A

 

[Spade48d]

Is having the ability to be corrupt the same as being corrupt?

-A

Hello Armothe,

Absolutely not. That would be like saying I can go out in the sun and get a great tan therefore I am tanned. I have the ability to get tanned if I choose but would not be tanned until I got the sunlight.[or tanning bed I guess].

I think God did have a plan for evil , but just like the physical darkness, I don't see anywhere the Word claims God to have created it (evil/wickedness).

I can't really find anything definitive either [Isaiah 45 comes close but still not a big cigar]. Since I am so early in my search for truth, I am just trying to look at things more or less objectively [probably less if I am halfway honest with myself], without bringing in the baggage of my repressed youth.

 

[armothe]

Since I am so early in my search for truth, I am just trying to look at things more or less objectively [probably less if I am halfway honest with myself], without bringing in the baggage of my repressed youth.

That's the best way to do it! Keep an open mind but always seek validation through scripture. I think the search for truth is a lifelong journey - in many cases you'll find answers, some cases you'll get more questions. Even if we don't figure anything out we spent a lifetime building our relationship with God, and eachother. And that's special within itself.

-A

 

[Spade48d]

That's the best way to do it! Keep an open mind but always seek validation through scripture. I think the search for truth is a lifelong journey - in many cases you'll find answers, some cases you'll get more questions. Even if we don't figure anything out we spent a lifetime building our relationship with God, and eachother. And that's special within itself.

-A

Hello Armothe,

What a truly wonderful and inspiring thought. The journey though difficult will hopefully bring us peace and joy.

Thanks for those positive words of encouragement. My search won't seem so arduous now.

be blessed
spade

 

[Reformationist]

No I don't believe that evil was part of Gods plan. He can not stand the apperance of evil.

The problem with this supposition is that you must either acknowledge that God cannot do anything about the very real evil that does exist or, well, that He can, in fact, stand it based on the fact that it exists.

Not only that but, He explicitly tells us that He permits the existance of evil for the good of His elect:

Romans 9:22-24
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Not only that didn't he creat us to worship him and his desire for us was to have companionship with him? If this is the case and he can not allow sin in his presance than he would not have created evil.

Umm...I'm a bit confused by this. Do you believe the Fall was part of God's plan? Had not the Godhead, before the foundations of the earth, not only agreed upon the course of salvation but, also, those whom He would save? How is it that God could plan for a Redeemer if He didn't plan for the Fall? And how could He plan for the Fall if He didn't plan for man's transgression of the Law, i.e., sin?

Also, where does the Bible say that an omnipresent God, who is in the presence of sin all the time cannot be in the presence of sin?

Adam and Eve walked flawlessly beside him naked and vulnarable and yet they walk beside him and talked with him and worshiped him and he was right their.

Okay. I'm not sure what your point was. It clearly wasn't His plan that man fall from grace immediately upon his creation. I fail to see how what you state above has anything to do with whether God planned for the existence of evil.

Can you explain?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

The question I have always had certainly relates to a view similar to yours that I was taught. If Adam and Eve were flawless and immortal then why was there a tree of life in the garden?

Immortality means, in essence, "not subject to death." Before God established the Law, there was no death. Death is begat of transgression. That is to say that Adam and Eve would have lived forever and never tasted of death had they not transgressed the Law of God. They were not immortal because God made them subject to death upon commission of sin.

God bless

 

[Spade48d]

Immortality means, in essence, "not subject to death." Before God established the Law, there was no death. Death is begat of transgression. That is to say that Adam and Eve would have lived forever and never tasted of death had they not transgressed the Law of God. They were not immortal because God made them subject to death upon commission of sin.

God bless

Hello Reformationist,

On what basis do you make the statement that Adam was not mortal until he sinned? Please provide scriptural support for your definition of death.

I have be perplexed trying to figure out whether the death that God promised Adam for disobeying had anything more than a spiritual basis or meaning. I believe that Adam was mortal. Whether he sinned of not he was gonna die physically. I am not sure what the outcome would have been physically if he ate the fruit of the tree of life. [I assume this is spiritual rather than physical also] I say this in the absence of anything I can find to the contrary and the fact that he is described as nephesh in the Hebrew. Anything you can hopefully provide scripturally will help to determine the truth.

I look forward to your response.

be blessed
spade