God's forknowledge and predistinaiton

[BNR32FAN]

I’m not a Calvinist.

I apologize, it was not my intention to misrepresent you my friend. I made an assumption and it wasn’t based on anything you wrote, I assumed you were a Calvinist because they’re the ones who were primarily debating with me. So please accept my sincere apologies.

 

[biblelesson]

Now you’re saying the exact opposite of what you said just earlier today. Like 4 posts earlier you were saying that ADAM WAS INCAPABLE OF SIN. Now all the sudden you’ve thrown that argument out the window because I squashed that it by pointing out the fact that God gave consequences for disobeying His commandment not to eat from the tree of knowledge. You don’t give someone consequences for doing something THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DO.

No I’m not saying the opposite.

What is going on with your twisting of my words. I will say it again.
1) Adam had no sin.
2) Adam was incapable of sin.
3) Sin was introduced to him.
4) Satan introduced sin to Adam through eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil.
5) Eating from that tree was the first introduction of sin to man. Other than that, sin did not exist for Adam

Now, there is no ambiguity in what I’m saying.

You don’t give someone consequences for doing something THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DO.

It was not impossible for Adam to be convinced to disobey God and eat from the wrong tree. God gave consequences for Adam’s wrong choice.

The issue is Adam would have remained without sin, without the knowledge of sin if he had never heard of sin. He could not have decided on his own to sin because he did not know what sin was. It was not until Satan convinced Eve to disobey God, that Adam learned about sin. That’s why God said, who told thee thou was naked, Genesis 3:11 KJV.
Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, until someone told them - Satan.

I have been trying to tell you that Adam did not have sin in him until he disobeyed God and ate from the tree. Eating from this tree CHANGED his nature, which he did not have at first, and after disobeying, the consequences became evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death. This is why God told Adam, who had not known sin, to not eat from this tree, because that would result in his inheriting a sinful nature, which would break his connection to God’s Spirit - fallen man.

As for Psalms 82:6-7 I don’t know what it means. It’s too ambiguous to make any sort of interpretation. You can’t just throw out any interpretation that suits you without evidence to support it.

Well, you have said you don’t know what the scripture means, but you argue as if you do know. This is impossible.

The word “he” is referring to David calling these people gods to whom the word of God came to. How does that equate to “them” being Adam? David wasn’t referring to Adam & Eve he was referring to mankind in general. Hence the term “all of you”.

“I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭82‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Who is “all of you” before the fall? Adam & Eve? No it’s a reference to all mankind because you don’t use the term “all of you” in reference to two people.

All of you refers to all mankind like you said. The question is what is the scripture speaking about?

It does no good to give you all the relating scriptures because you won’t read them. You admit you don’t know, and I suspect don’t want to know.

You seem to want to act like you know! Big difference!

 

[biblelesson]

You don’t seem to understand that it makes no sense for God to give consequences for doing that that Adam is incapable of doing. Would it make sense for me to tell my son don’t jump over the house otherwise I’m going to give you a spanking? No because it’s impossible for him to do that. Just like it would be ridiculous for me to give my son consequences for doing something that is impossible for him to do it would be equally ridiculous for God to give Adam consequences for failing to obey His commandment if Adam is incapable of disobeying.

Since you are not seeing what I’m saying. Can you tell me then how could Adam have sinned if Satan had not approached them to eat of the wrong tree?

 

[BNR32FAN]

2) Adam was incapable of sin.

4) Satan introduced sin to Adam through eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil.

If Adam was incapable of sin satan would’ve failed. Falling to temptation is sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It was not impossible for Adam to be convinced to disobey God and eat from the wrong tree. God gave consequences for Adam’s wrong choice.

Falling to temptation isn’t a sin?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The issue is Adam would have remained without sin, without the knowledge of sin if he had never heard of sin.

This is just an assumption formulated to protect your doctrine. You have absolutely no way of knowing that because it’s not stated anywhere in the scriptures. The only reason you defend this so much is because your doctrine says so. Any doctrine without scriptural evidence to support it is an assumption or a fabrication.

He could not have decided on his own to sin because he did not know what sin was.

Whether he decided on his own or not is irrelevant. God gave a commandment and Adam chose for himself to disobey that commandment. He disobeyed of his own free will. He was not forced to eat the forbidden fruit. The moment he decided to disobey God he sinned. Falling to temptation isn’t an excuse. If Adam was incapable of sin then that would mean that he was incapable of disobeying God. Obviously he wasn’t incapable.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Eating from this tree CHANGED his nature, which he did not have at first, and after disobeying, the consequences became evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death.

He had to decide to disobey God BEFORE he actually ate the fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, you have said you don’t know what the scripture means, but you argue as if you do know. This is impossible.

I don’t fully understand it. I’m not afraid to admit that. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t understand who it is referring to.

“I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭82‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

David said “YOU are Gods” to Adam & Eve? David never met Adam & Eve. Then he said “and ALL OF YOU are SONS of the Most High” to Adam & Eve? ALL OF YOU? He said that to TWO people he never met. Or maybe he said that in reference to those TWO people? One of which was a man and the other was a woman and he said they were SONS of the Most High? Yeah I may not fully understand what the passage says but I can absolutely see that it was not said to or in reference to Adam & Eve by simply examining what was actually said. Nobody says “all of you” to two people and they surely don’t call one man and one woman SONS of anybody. That’s just common sense.

 

[biblelesson]

Falling to temptation isn’t a sin?

Very good question. Now I see what you are looking at.

First, consider Adam’s nature. He was created without a sin nature. It is the sin nature that is corrupt, that caused the fall.

Adam’s disobedience is not really what caused sin. It was what he inherited from his disobedience, that made him corrupted - his nature became a sinful nature.

Adam received a different nature when he ate from the wrong tree; a nature that opposed God, resulting in death. From Adam inheriting this sinful nature, all of mankind now would have this sinful nature, called the carnal nature.

I will look for scriptures!

 

[BNR32FAN]

It does no good to give you all the relating scriptures because you won’t read them. You admit you don’t know, and I suspect don’t want to know.

Why not? I’ve addressed every scripture you’ve posted which has only been two so far. That’s all I’ve been asking for this entire discussion is scriptural evidence to support your doctrine and that’s the only two you’ve produced. “All the relating scriptures” don’t exist which is why you haven’t quoted them yet. How do I know this? Because I know the word of God. I study it for myself which is why I don’t allow commentaries or 16th century theologians tell me what the word of God actually says.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Very good question. Now I see what you are looking at.

First, consider Adam’s nature. He was created without a sin nature. It is the sin nature that is corrupt, that caused the fall.

Adam’s disobedience is not really what caused sin. It was what he inherited from his disobedience, that made him corrupted - his nature became a sinful nature.

Adam received a different nature when he ate from the wrong tree; a nature that opposed God, resulting in death. From Adam inheriting this sinful nature, all of mankind now would have this sinful nature, called the carnal nature.

I will look for scriptures!

The scriptures don’t record Adam opposing God after the fall. They don’t mention Adam sinning again after the fall in the garden. Enoch walked with God. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time who also walked with God. Eating from the tree of knowledge did not make man opposed to God. Adam finally knew sin because he finally committed sin, he finally experienced it. The scriptures don’t say that Adam turned to a life of sin after eating from the tree of knowledge. Job was another righteous man. All of these men had a sinful nature, I’m sure they weren’t perfect but they weren’t opposed to God, they all walked with God.

 

[biblelesson]

The scriptures don’t record Adam opposing God after the fall. They don’t mention Adam sinning again after the fall in the garden. Enoch walked with God. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time who also walked with God. Eating from the tree of knowledge did not make man opposed to God. Adam finally knew sin because he finally committed sin, he finally experienced it. The scriptures don’t say that Adam turned to a life of sin after eating from the tree of knowledge. Job was another righteous man. All of these men had a sinful nature, I’m sure they weren’t perfect but they weren’t opposed to God, they all walked with God.

Get a good understanding of the sin nature. That’s what causes a man to be corrupt, carnal, unrighteousness.

Eating from the tree of knowledge caused the corrupted sinful nature in man.

Adam may not have turned to a life of sin after the fall, but he still had a sinful carnal nature unto death.

Man is carnal (sinful nature) due to the fall, and the carnal mind is enmity (hatred) against God, and flesh cannot please God, Romans 8:7 KJV.

Job, Moses, Jeremiah, and the other prophets walked with God but they could not be resurrected to glory because of their sinful nature. God required sacrifice for sins to remain righteous in His sight until the promised seed.

So Jesus (the promised seed - our redeemer) came to redeem us from the condition we inherited in Adam where death reigned, and He gives us His Spirit unto eternal life, 1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV, Romans 5:17 KJV

Paul said, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? He said thanks be to Christ, Romans 7:24-25 KJV

The entire human race is subject to Christ. Because it is only Jesus Who offers the atonement for sin (sinful nature in man), and our individual sins through the shedding of His blood.

All who died under the law under Moses was saved in Jesus - He descended and loosed their chains setting the captives free, Ephesians 4:8-10 KJV, Psalms 68:18 KJV. Jesus death ended the Old Testament, and those saints who died under the Old Testament, their graves opened at Jesus death and resurrection, Matthew 27:52 KJV - this is of the first resurrection.

Now those saints in Christ who die under the New Testament, their souls are with Christ and are resurrected at His second coming - this is still of the first resurrection.

Read. Study. Pray to understand scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Get a good understanding of the sin nature. That’s what causes a man to be corrupt, carnal, unrighteousness.

Eating from the tree of knowledge caused the corrupted sinful nature in man.

Adam may not have turned to a life of sin after the fall, but he still had a sinful carnal nature unto death.

Man is carnal (sinful nature) due to the fall, and the carnal mind is enmity (hatred) against God, and flesh cannot please God, Romans 8:7 KJV.

Job, Moses, Jeremiah, and the other prophets walked with God but they could not be resurrected to glory because of their sinful nature. God required sacrifice for sins to remain righteous in His sight until the promised seed.

So Jesus (the promised seed - our redeemer) came to redeem us from the condition we inherited in Adam where death reigned, and He gives us His Spirit unto eternal life, 1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV, Romans 5:17 KJV

Paul said, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? He said thanks be to Christ, Romans 7:24-25 KJV

The entire human race is subject to Christ. Because it is only Jesus Who offers the atonement for sin (sinful nature in man), and our individual sins through the shedding of His blood.

All who died under the law under Moses was saved in Jesus - He descended and loosed their chains setting the captives free, Ephesians 4:8-10 KJV, Psalms 68:18 KJV. Jesus death ended the Old Testament, and those saints who died under the Old Testament, their graves opened at Jesus death and resurrection, Matthew 27:52 KJV - this is of the first resurrection.

Now those saints in Christ who die under the New Testament, their souls are with Christ and are resurrected at His second coming - this is still of the first resurrection.

Read. Study. Pray to understand scripture.

I agree with everything you said here except that our sinful nature came from the tree of knowledge and that man’s carnal nature causes hatred towards God. People who hate God don’t walk with Him. Have you ever hated God? I didn’t come to Christ until I was 38 years old but I never hated God. I was very disobedient tho.

 

[John Mullally]

Forknowledge and Predestination:

Starting with Romans 8:29 KJV, "For whom he did forknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Foreknowledge: Who are “those whom He foreknew”? Romans 11:2 is the only other occurrence of “foreknew” in the Book of Romans, and which clearly refers to the Old Testament saints. So, why not consider that as a way to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

Predestination means make firm beforehand. Predestination means make firm beforehand. If the subject is OT saints (as it is in Romans 11:2), then Paul is saying that OT saints are to be conformed to the image of his Son and be the firstborn among many brethren.

God's election is sure, and nothing can change it. This is what is meant in Romans 8:38-39 KJV, 38 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come," 39 "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 8:38-39 is true of Christ believers. I find no scripture that clearly states that particular individuals are preselected for salvation or reprobation - that is fatalism.

fatalism​

noun​

fa·tal·ism ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm​

​

: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them​

God's election is based on grace, that it might not be of works, that is of the flesh.

Per Ephesians 2:8-9, it is God's salvation that is based on faith through grace, that it might not be of works.

 

[biblelesson]

Foreknowledge: Who are “those whom He foreknew”? Romans 11:2 is the only other occurrence of “foreknew” in the Book of Romans, and which clearly refers to the Old Testament saints. So, why not consider that as a way to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

Forknowledge is having knowledge of something in the future that has not happened yet.

Forknew is knowing something that took place already in the past

The words are not the same.

Romans 11:2 KJV is referring to the people God previously knew or forknew under the Old Testament - Israel. Forknew is used because under the New Testament, Israel is no longer known of God in the manner in which He knew them under Moses, under the law. However, Paul is explaining that God Has not cast His people away, and used Elijah as an example to show that just like God retained a remnant then under the law, even now under the New Testament a remnant of Israel will be saved according to election of grace, Romans 11:5 KJV.

Predestination means make firm beforehand. That subject here does not necessarily have to do with specific individuals - it can be a class of people - i.e. believers. There are many scriptures that show that OT God believers and NT Christ believers will be saved.

True, however the Old Testament saints have already been resurrected. When Jesus brought in the New Testament at His death on the cross, the old Testament ended, which closed out everything under the Old Testament; this also included those saints who died under the Old Testament. So, at Jesus death on the cross, those saints graves opened and were resurrected after Jesus resurrection, Matthew 27:52-63 KJV. Those Old Testament saints who were resurrected also fall within the first resurrection. If you notice, the scripture tells us that their graves opened, but they did not resurrect until after Jesus resurrected- this is because in all things Jesus has the preeminence, Colossians 1:18 KJV.

This is true of Christ believers. I find no scripture that clearly states that particular individuals are preselected for salvation or reprobation - that is fatalism.

I’m not saying anything about fatalism, whatever that is. God’s predestination is based on His foreknowledge of those who will believe. It is those He predestinates. God wants all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4 KJV. But some won’t believe. So those who choose not to believe, God cannot predestinate them to be conformed to Christ, Romans 8:29 KJV, because through their unbelief, they are not able to receive the Holy Spirit Who does the work of sanctification.

Per Ephesians 2:8-9, it is God's salvation that is based on faith through grace, that it might not be of works.

Based on “grace through faith.” It is the elect who are saved by grace because they believed.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Divide]

God's predestination of the elect is based on his foreknowledge of them(all those who would believe on Christ) before they are born. Therefore to make the election (elect) sure, the life of those who are to be conformed to the image of His Son was/is predestinated based on God's forknowledge of who they are, what they will do, and how they will believe.

Predestinated to the degree that they obey the Lord. I think when He wrote the book about each of us that there are different outcomes to many of the situations in life that we face and did we listen to the voice of the Lord and do what he said or did we make our own decision? Which can affect perhaps not the outcome but everything up to that.

Which is why it's good to listen to Lord and our Conscience. Does that sound right?

 

[John Mullally]

Forknowledge is having knowledge of something in the future that has not happened yet.

Forknew is knowing something that took place already in the past

The words are not the same.

Romans 11:2 KJV is referring to the people God previously knew or forknew under the Old Testament - Israel. Forknew is used because under the New Testament, Israel is no longer known of God in the manner in which He knew them under Moses, under the law. However, Paul is explaining that God Has not cast His people away, and used Elijah as an example to show that just like God retained a remnant then under the law, even now under the New Testament a remnant of Israel will be saved according to election of grace, Romans 11:5 KJV.

Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 use the same greek word for what is translated as "He foreknew" in the NIV (proegnō).

I’m not saying anything about fatalism, whatever that is. God’s predestination is based on His foreknowledge of those who will believe. It is those He predestinates. God wants all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4 KJV. But some won’t believe. So those who choose not to believe, God cannot predestinate them to be conformed to Christ, Romans 8:29 KJV, because through their unbelief, they are not able to receive the Holy Spirit Who does the work of sanctification.

I think you are saying in this paragraph that God loves everyone, wants all to be saved, but knows who will believe and only that those who believe will be saved. I think we are close. If such is the case, I don't see the importance of emphasizing that God knows who will believe when that is not actionable information.

Calvinists if they do remark, will probably say I am making God weak. In Calvinism, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist, I believe that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him, but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely. Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach a Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should first attempt to prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it. Non-Calvinists argue from Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 that God Himself testifies that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

Based on “grace through faith.” It is the elect who are saved by grace because they believed.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:8-9 says nothing about "the elect".

 

[biblelesson]

Predestinated to the degree that they obey the Lord. I think when He wrote the book about each of us that there are different outcomes to many of the situations in life that we face and did we listen to the voice of the Lord and do what he said or did we make our own decision? Which can affect perhaps not the outcome but everything up to that.

God did not say He predestinated us based on the degree we obey Him. God’s predestination of those whom He elected was done before they were born. His predestination was done before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy before Him, where He adopts us as children in Jesus, according to His will, Ephesians 1:4-5 KJV. So, God will not loose any of His elect in Jesus, John 6:39 KJV. God is in control, and He does the work in us, Philippians 2:13 KJV.

 

[biblelesson]

Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 use the same greek word for what is translated as "He foreknew" in the NIV (proegnō).

I think you are saying that God loves everyone, wants all to be saved, but knows who will believe and only that those who believe will be saved. I think we are close. I don't see the importance of pointing out that God knows who will believe, when you also state per 1 Timothy 2:4, that God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth". Saying God knows what will happen is not actionable information.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says nothing about "the elect".

The elect are those chosen by God according to His forknowledge, 1 Peter 1:2 KJV

 

[biblelesson]

Calvinists if they do remark, will probably say I am making God weak. In Calvinism, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist, I believe that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him, but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely. Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach a Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should first attempt to prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it. Non-Calvinists argue from Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 that God Himself testifies that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

I don’t agree with the Calvinist view, so I don’t consider their arguments.