God's Decree

[Hammster]

First, let’s suppose, just for the sake of argument, that God did plan and render certain (as its ultimate cause but through secondary causes) the specific acts of the men who crucified Jesus. That in no way implies that every wicked act is planned and rendered certain by God.

2nd, is it necessarily the case that in order for God to have planned and rendered certain the crucifixion, God had to actually cause certain men to crucify Jesus? That’s a false assumption.
Suppose God wanted Jesus to be crucified in a particular place and at a particular time. Was his only recourse to pick certain individuals and cause them to crucify Jesus? Not at all! The triumphal entry into Jerusalem guaranteed that someone would crucify Jesus. But God did not have to inspire or manipulate or coerce any particular individuals to do it.
There are many ways around interpreting Acts 2:23 in the traditional Calvinist manner. No Church father of the first three centuries interpreted it that way (so far as I know). I wonder what Calvinists think about Church fathers like Irenaeus who clearly did not believe what Calvinists believe about God’s sovereignty. And yet he is a third generation Christian, taught the Christian faith by Polycarp, who was taught it by John — who forgot all about God’s absolute, determinative sovereignty between John and Irenaeus? Not.

Your responses still assume that I’m saying God forced men to do certain things. That is not my position. My position is that God decrees all things to happen.

The crucifixion, for example, had to happen a certain way at a certain time. Chance had no part in it. So in whatever way God works, He worked it so that it happened the way it did. So my argument is exactly what scripture says.


this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

 

[renniks]

The crucifixion, for example, had to happen a certain way at a certain time. Chance had no part in it. So in whatever way God works, He worked it so that it happened the way it did. So my argument is exactly what scripture says.

So now you are saying God did have to inspire certain individuals to do it. Because to happen exactly the way it did would require him to arrange every thought of each evil man who participated.

You keep trying to have it both ways. All that was required was that God knew when it had to happen. Decreeing each individuals actions goes way beyond that. I can plan something because I know what others reactions will be without rendering certain thier actions. Calvinists insist God has to render everything certain.

(God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory.. John Piper)

 

[Hammster]

So now you are saying God did have to inspire certain individuals to do it. Because to happen exactly the way it did would require him to arrange every thought of each evil man who participated.

Let’s stop here. Where did I say that?

 

[GingerBeer]

I am asking members, who have read and studied the Scriptures, if this statement is biblical, while supporting their answer with Scripture. Now, if that's "bordering on absurd," then you would

The statement is not biblical.

 

[Hammster]

The statement is not biblical.

Biblical evidence?

 

[Neogaia777]

I can plan something because I know what others reactions will be without rendering certain their actions.

This is "God" were talking about here, not just a mere man, and that is where your getting it wrong...

(See below this)...

Calvinists insist God has to render everything certain.

In order to not leave anything to chance, or have nothing outside His knowledge or knowing, He would have to, or would have had to, etc, and would have had to going way, way back, etc, God the Father anyway, as I already tried to explain; that it is only God the Father alone who ever always was, and forever was/is like this, ever and forever, etc, but not always God the Son (Jesus) or God the Holy Spirit/YHWH in the OT...

But, you guys are just "not getting it/that", etc, and I'm tired of trying to explain and feeling like my words don't matter or fall on deaf ears, so...

But it does completely solve this whole debackle, but not that any of you care, predestination/free will, etc, God or the God's Sovereignty, etc, but it requires you to think some things that are not "traditional" and goes against traditional, classical thinking, which is probably why you don't and won't accept it, etc, or even "try it out", or even hear it, etc...

Because you have to accept that, even among the three, that they were not each always "co-equal", etc, from the beginning, etc, is the number one main reason most people just will not accept, nor even entertain the idea anyway, and many are just way too afraid to, etc...

That God in and of the OT was the Holy Spirit not always equal to God the Father, the Heavenly Father Jesus spoke of, who was above Him, or that One in or from the beginning, etc, in and from the beginning, etc, but still very much our God, etc, in fact He or that One (YHWH/Holy Spirit) always was and still is very, very necessary, essential as a matter of fact, along with God the Son, to Show us the Father, for without them, it is not even possible, etc, and/cause that is mainly what They are for, etc, to be or become our God's, show us the right order of that triune arrangement, and together as One, (God the Son and God the Spirit), be like the Father God, as is supposed to be the arrangement with us, as, or if we are to be, true Sons of God, etc, like Jesus having the Spirit, etc...

To combat and deal with Satan in this world also, etc, also created by the Father God to oppose us, to oppose all of us, including and beginning with God the Spirit in the OT, and then God the Son along with having the Spirit in the NT, etc, who was individually victorious, and secured a way for the rest of us to be individually victorious in the future, by teaming up with God the Spirit, made that possible again, etc, until we all get the victory collectively together, then He (Satan) will be done away with for a long time, for we will have "learned", etc, and only let lose for a very short time one more time, to test us all again, before the very, very end, etc, and before the beginning of a whole new creation era or age, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, probably already said too much, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This is "God" were talking about here, not just a mere man, and that is where your getting it wrong...

(See below this)...



In order to not leave anything to chance, or have nothing outside His knowledge or knowing, He would have to, or would have had to, etc, going way, way back, etc, God the Father anyway, as I already tried to explain; that it is only God the Father alone who ever always was, and forever was/is like this, ever and forever, etc, but not always God the Son (Jesus) or God the Holy Spirit/YHWH in the OT...

But, you guys are just "not getting it/that", etc, and I'm tired of trying to explain and feeling like my words don't matter or fall on deaf ears, so...

But it does completely solve this whole debackle, but not that any of you care, predestination/free will, etc, God or the God's Sovereignty, etc, but it requires you to think some things that are not "traditional" and goes against traditional, classical thinking, which is probably why you don't and won't accept it, etc, or even "try it out", or even hear it, etc...

Because you have to accept that, even among the three, that they were not each always "co-equal", etc, from the beginning, etc, is the number one main reason most people just will not accept, nor even entertain the idea anyway, and many are just way too afraid to, etc...

That God in and of the OT was the Holy Spirit not always equal to God the Father, the Heavenly Father Jesus spoke of, who was above Him, or that One in or from the beginning, etc, in and from the beginning, etc, but still very much our God, etc, in fact He or that One (YHWH/Holy Spirit) always was and still is very, very necessary, essential as a matter of fact, along with God the Son, to Show us the Father, for without them, it is not even possible, etc, and/cause that is mainly what They are for, etc, to be or become our God's, show us the right order of that triune arrangement, and together as One, (God the Son and God the Spirit), be like the Father God, as is supposed to be the arrangement with us, as, or if we are to be, true Sons of God, etc, like Jesus having the Spirit, etc...

To combat and deal with Satan in this world also, etc, also created by the Father God to oppose us, to oppose all of us, including and beginning with God the Spirit in the OT, and then God the Son along with having the Spirit in the NT, etc, who was individually victorious, and secured a way for the rest of us to be individually victorious in the future, by teaming up with God the Spirit, made that possible again, etc, until we all get the victory collectively together, then He (Satan) will be done away with for a long time, for we will have "learned", etc, and only let lose for a very short time one more time, to test us all again, before the very, very end, etc, and before the beginning of a whole new creation era or age, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, probably already said too much, etc...

God Bless!

Sin no longer separates us from the Holy Spirit now, or prevents us from teaming up with Him to combat Satan or evil with the Holy Spirit anymore, though we will have to learn how to know evil and the the evil from the good, and reject and always choose only the good always each individually and eventually collectively to defeat him (Satan) or it (evil)... But sin or sin at the beginning or initially no no longer separates us from Him (YHWH/The Holy Spirit) or prevents us from teaming up with Him or that One anymore, Jesus took care of that, paid for that with His life, but Jesus went to where the Father is, to prepare a place for us there, and not "sent" but left us with, the Holy Spirit, etc, who has always been here, etc, and is still here with us, etc, and is our God, etc, until Jesus returns back to here from where God the Father is and always was, and after He has prepared places there for all of us there, etc...

Until then, we are left with YHWH the Holy Spirit, who has always been here, etc, who can now live in us, and we can now be his temple now, etc, which is/was different now than from before, etc (in the OT, etc) to deal with the evil in this world and in ourselves, until Jesus returns or comes back, etc...

The Holy Spirit/YHWH is "power", and if you can't see that much then your blind, no offense, but you may also have to believe it also, or as well, etc, to fight and combat and confront Satan and evil in this world till Jesus comes, or comes back, etc...

This has all been hidden from us in plain sight, under our very nose, for a very, very long time, and way too many of us have had religious blinders on for way too long, and even now, I don't know how many will accept it, but if you going to get anywhere with God or experience any kind of real true victory with evil, then this is an essential "start", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This is "God" were talking about here, not just a mere man, and that is where your getting it wrong...

(See below this)...



In order to not leave anything to chance, or have nothing outside His knowledge or knowing, He would have to, or would have had to, etc, and would have had to going way, way back, etc, God the Father anyway, as I already tried to explain; that it is only God the Father alone who ever always was, and forever was/is like this, ever and forever, etc, but not always God the Son (Jesus) or God the Holy Spirit/YHWH in the OT...

But, you guys are just "not getting it/that", etc, and I'm tired of trying to explain and feeling like my words don't matter or fall on deaf ears, so...

But it does completely solve this whole debackle, but not that any of you care, predestination/free will, etc, God or the God's Sovereignty, etc, but it requires you to think some things that are not "traditional" and goes against traditional, classical thinking, which is probably why you don't and won't accept it, etc, or even "try it out", or even hear it, etc...

Because you have to accept that, even among the three, that they were not each always "co-equal", etc, from the beginning, etc, is the number one main reason most people just will not accept, nor even entertain the idea anyway, and many are just way too afraid to, etc...

That God in and of the OT was the Holy Spirit not always equal to God the Father, the Heavenly Father Jesus spoke of, who was above Him, or that One in or from the beginning, etc, in and from the beginning, etc, but still very much our God, etc, in fact He or that One (YHWH/Holy Spirit) always was and still is very, very necessary, essential as a matter of fact, along with God the Son, to Show us the Father, for without them, it is not even possible, etc, and/cause that is mainly what They are for, etc, to be or become our God's, show us the right order of that triune arrangement, and together as One, (God the Son and God the Spirit), be like the Father God, as is supposed to be the arrangement with us, as, or if we are to be, true Sons of God, etc, like Jesus having the Spirit, etc...

To combat and deal with Satan in this world also, etc, also created by the Father God to oppose us, to oppose all of us, including and beginning with God the Spirit in the OT, and then God the Son along with having the Spirit in the NT, etc, who was individually victorious, and secured a way for the rest of us to be individually victorious in the future, by teaming up with God the Spirit, made that possible again, etc, until we all get the victory collectively together, then He (Satan) will be done away with for a long time, for we will have "learned", etc, and only let lose for a very short time one more time, to test us all again, before the very, very end, etc, and before the beginning of a whole new creation era or age, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, probably already said too much, etc...

God Bless!

Sin no longer separates us from the Holy Spirit now, or prevents us from teaming up with Him to combat Satan or evil with the Holy Spirit anymore, though we will have to learn how to know evil and the the evil from the good, and reject and always choose only the good always each individually and eventually collectively to defeat him (Satan) or it (evil)... But sin or sin at the beginning or initially no no longer separates us from Him (YHWH/The Holy Spirit) or prevents us from teaming up with Him or that One anymore, Jesus took care of that, paid for that with His life, but Jesus went to where the Father is, to prepare a place for us there, and not "sent" but left us with, the Holy Spirit, etc, who has always been here, etc, and is still here with us, etc, and is our God, etc, until Jesus returns back to here from where God the Father is and always was, and after He has prepared places there for all of us there, etc...

Until then, we are left with YHWH the Holy Spirit, who has always been here, etc, who can now live in us, and we can now be his temple now, etc, which is/was different now than from before, etc (in the OT, etc) to deal with the evil in this world and in ourselves, until Jesus returns or comes back, etc...

The Holy Spirit/YHWH is "power", and if you can't see that much then your blind, no offense, but you may also have to believe it also, or as well, etc, to fight and combat and confront Satan and evil in this world till Jesus comes, or comes back, etc...

This has all been hidden from us in plain sight, under our very nose, for a very, very long time, and way too many of us have had religious blinders on for way too long, and even now, I don't know how many will accept it, but if you going to get anywhere with God or experience any kind of real true victory with evil, then this is an essential "start", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

The Father God predestined everything, and all, and all of us, even including God the Spirit and God the Son, and even Satan the Devil also, this is all His "play" or His "stage", and we are all just players in it, but that is not reason to give up or proceed as if we don't have or make choices however, cause what other way are you, or we, going to go about it anyway, etc...?

Anyway, the good news, is we already know how a great deal of this "play", "plays out" or ends, that we eventually get the victory, etc, and no one can go against the Father's will, for that is not even possible, and certainly the Devil cannot ever, etc, so we can all each tell him (Satan) that or inform him of that, and that it/that is "set in stone", etc, cannot be changed, etc... Eventually, and hopefully very soon, we will have all learned what we will have needed to learn or know from him, and his purpose, or his program, and what we are to all have learned from him, will be done and will have reached it's end, etc, then it will be his end, etc, and there is no getting around it that, or changing it, etc, for the Father Himself has willed it, determined it, predestined it, etc, and told us about it, and no one even possibly can go against that ever, etc, no one ever, etc, or ever thwart His or that One's will, etc, so tell him that, OK...

I suspect he already knows and knows his time is short right now, but some of you might want to tell him or remind him maybe, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

So, I guess the big question is, can you walk like a true Son of God in this world, having the Holy Spirit, along with the Holy Spirit, combating and confronting and dealing with the evil in this world and the wicked one until Jesus returns or comes, and get the victory each one individually till we can all get or have it (the victory) collectively, or not...? or will you "cannot" basically...?

Cause that is the question...?

You need to get to know Him (The Holy Spirit) though...?

Gotta have that personal relationship, cause without fully knowing Him or that One, it is all for naught, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Just a side note: I pray to the Father in Jesus name, just like Jesus told us, but if I want anything to get done or accomplished, especially specifically, I will sometimes add "by the power of the Holy Spirit", etc, let it be done, happen, or be accomplished, take place, happen, etc...

In case some of you are or were wondering, etc...

Cause I mean by the power of YHWH, etc...

Cause that's what He or that One is, is "power", etc...

But you have to have faith, you have to believe it, etc....

If you want "power", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Another side note: The Ark of the Covenant, and the two Angels or Spirit's opposing one another, etc, one is YHWH, The Holy Spirit, and the other is Satan, the Devil... And, between them, seated down on the mercy seat between them on the cover, is God the Son, or Jesus... And then, inside of it, (The Ark of the Covenant), whom only the One seated down on the mercy seat can give you access to, is none other than the Most Holy Presence of the Heavenly Father God Himself, inside of it, etc, symbolic of Heaven, etc...

God Bless!

 

[renniks]

In order to not leave anything to chance, or have nothing outside His knowledge or knowing, He would have to, or would have had to, etc, and would have had to going way, way back, etc, God the Father anyway, as I already tried to explain; that it is only God the Father alone who ever always was, and forever was/is like this, ever and forever, etc, but not always God the Son (Jesus) or God the Holy Spirit/YHWH in the OT...

God the Son always was too. So was the Spirit. Not sure what you are getting at, but it sounds heretical.

 

[renniks]

But it does completely solve this whole debackle, but not that any of you care, predestination/free will, etc, God or the God's Sovereignty, etc, but it requires you to think some things that are not "traditional" and goes against traditional, classical thinking, which is probably why you don't and won't accept it, etc, or even "try it out", or even hear it, etc...

See, I don't need to solve the whole debacle, because God only predestined certain things and he did so because of knowing what men would do. He did not predestine everything, hence he is not responsible for evil.

 

[GingerBeer]

Biblical evidence?

The absence of biblical teaching to support the claims in the Baptist confession.

 

[Hammster]

The absence of biblical teaching to support the claims in the Baptist confession.

It’s not a Baptist confession.

 

[GingerBeer]

It’s not a Baptist confession.

It is quoted as the 1689 Baptist confession, that makes it Baptist does it not?

Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689

 

[Hammster]

It is quoted as the 1689 Baptist confession, that makes it Baptist does it not?

Sorry. Wrong thread. My bad.

 

[Jonaitis]

Every command in scripture implies free will. That's the point of the imperative. Secondly the fact that God is just, to hold people accountable for things they have no control over is inherently unjust by the very definition of justice. When is a paradox a contradiction? When it cannot be reconciled. And that's the case here.

We all have the volition to act, no one is denying that, not even the original post. Scripture affirms that we have this. However, it equally affirms that God predetermined those choices and the time they would be acted upon.

For an example, Joseph was sold to Ishmaelite traders by his brothers. They were neither under compulsion, nor were they coerced by God into doing it. Rather, they committed this sin out of their envy and contempt for him from their own depraved hearts.

Then they said to one another, “In truth we are guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the distress of his soul, when he begged us and we did not listen. That is why this distress has come upon us.” - Genesis 42:21

They admitted that this guilt was theirs, that they were responsible for selling Joseph. However, when Joseph confronted his brothers about their actions he makes this interesting statement:

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." - Genesis 50:20

His dreams were fulfilled by their envy. If he had not been sold, he would not have been a servant in Potipher's household. If he had not been a servant in Potipher's household, he would not have been falsely accused of sexual assault and sent to prison. If he had not been a prisoner, he would not have interpreted the dreams of the cup-bearer and baker. If he had not interpreted the dreams of the cup-bearer and the baker, he would not have been called to interpret Pharaoh's dream. If he had not been called to interpret Pharaoh's dream, he would not have become second ruler in all of Egypt's territory.

The one act of his brothers led to the fulfillment of those dreams. As Joseph said,

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." - Genesis 50:20

God had a predetermined purpose, and he used the actions of his brothers, the actions of Potipher's wife, the actions of the prison guard, the actions of the cup-bearer, and the actions of Pharaoh to bring about that purpose. None of these individuals saw God in it in the doing of the act, they did it by their own volition. So, here we see the absolute sovereign hand of God working out those events that he had decreed from eternity.

We know what happened after, right? This led the Israelites to live in Goshen, that over time their stay would be overdue and that they would be persecuted, which would lead to the sending of Moses to bring them into the land of Canaan.

It is not really our job to explain how God is in complete control, while man is in complete responsibility over their own actions. This paradox is written all over the pages of Scripture. God reconciles them together.

 

[Jonaitis]

Did God also bring about the rebellion of his people...?

He not only brought about the events that led Israel to rebel, without participating in their sin, but he also had control over their response to the warnings preached by the prophets:

"Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” - Isaiah 6:10

God refused to allow them to be healed, as said above. He made them remain in the same stubborn, rebellious disposition, but for how long?

"Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste, and the LORD removes people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land. And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains when it is felled.” - Isaiah 6:11-13

God was behind the scenes, working out all these things. However, God is not responsible for the evil in their hearts, nor their actions.

 

[Jonaitis]

Comfort in knowing God decreed our fears, our doubt, our sin, and everything that opposes him? That he decreed rape and hate and lying, things scripture says he hated?

Well, if that bothers you, what if I were to say that he looked down through the corridors of time and saw the things you mentioned, and did nothing to prevent it, that which he hates? Your response would make God inactive in what he could have clearly prevented. The biblical response is that there was a good purpose in such tragic events. I say, the former almost makes God sound deistic and/or sadistic.