God's 10 Commandments vs Roman Catholic 10 Commandments

[Standing Up]

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Broke the images and the brass serpent.

 

[Fireinfolding]

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Broke the images and the brass serpent.

Even though that was right in the sight of the LORD, I believe John of Damascus would considered him as anyone who tries to destroy icons to be an enemy of Christ, and the Holy Mother of God and the saints, and would be considered the defender of the Devil and his demons.

Its supposedly good to cense, wood, stone and brass, because thats worship of God in some sense and not devils, but it would seem the worship of devils is actually listed among the worship of idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone and wood.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Catholic bibles and the Catechism of the Catholic Church unanimously teach that idolatry is a sin that breaches the first commandment. The First commandment says: I am the LORD your God who brought you out of Egypt, where you lived as slaves. You shall have no other gods to rival me. You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God and I punish a parent's fault in the children, the grandchildren, and the great-grandchildren among those who hate me; but I act with faithful love towards thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(Exodus 20:2-6)

 

[YHWH's Lion]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

I guess the above link is really what my question is about.
A Traditional Catechetical Formula changes the 10 Commandments.
Why do men decide to mess with Gods 10 Commandments? Why not leave them the way they are?
What is a point of "A Traditional Catechetical Formula" ?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What did they allegedly "mess" with in the list of ten commandments. I still see 10. I see summaries of each and every one of the 10. What's supposed to be missing?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

I guess the above link is really what my question is about.
A Traditional Catechetical Formula changes the 10 Commandments.
Why do men decide to mess with Gods 10 Commandments? Why not leave them the way they are?
What is a point of "A Traditional Catechetical Formula" ?

 

[YHWH's Lion]

What did they allegedly "mess" with in the list of ten commandments. I still see 10. I see summaries of each and every one of the 10. What's supposed to be missing?

Well first of all, what is the point of a "summery"? what is a point of a A Traditional Catechetical Formula?
Are God's words not good enough?
Secondly, if they write the 10 Commandments according to the "Traditional Catechetical Formula"
they cut out parts of the 10 Commandments, the way they are ACTUALLY written in God's Holy Word.
On top of cutting out parts of the 10 Commandments, they change the "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" to "Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day."

 

[MoreCoffee]

Catechisms are intended for teaching and the summaries for memorisation. Obviously it is easy to remember "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" but not so easy to remember "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of Egypt, where you lived as slaves. You shall have no other gods to rival me. You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God and I punish a parent's fault in the children, the grandchildren, and the great-grandchildren among those who hate me; but I act with faithful love towards thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Well first of all, what is the point of a "summery"? what is a point of a A Traditional Catechetical Formula?
Are God's words not good enough?
Secondly, if they write the 10 Commandments according to the "Traditional Catechetical Formula"
they cut out parts of the 10 Commandments, the way they are ACTUALLY written in God's Holy Word.
On top of cutting out parts of the 10 Commandments, they change the "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" to "Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day."

 

[YHWH's Lion]

Catechisms are intended for teaching and the summaries for memorisation. Obviously it is easy to remember "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" but not so easy to remember "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of Egypt, where you lived as slaves. You shall have no other gods to rival me. You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God and I punish a parent's fault in the children, the grandchildren, and the great-grandchildren among those who hate me; but I act with faithful love towards thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Thats it? thats your answer? Because its inconvenient to learn Gods Word how its written? That men took it upon themselves to re-write God's Commandments? and because of it people (and kids) are learning something that is not from the Word of God but from men. With parts cut out and parts changed?

 

[MoreCoffee]

When the people learning to memorise are children, many as young as five, the answer I gave is more than adequate and if you want to imply that it is bad not to memorise long passages then fine. I don't see the value, but if you're very keen you can memorise the entire bible, some assure me that such is a very salutary exercise.

Thats it? thats your answer? Because its inconvenient to learn Gods Word how its written? That men took it upon themselves to re-write God's Commandments? and because of it people (and kids) are learning something that is not from the Word of God but from men. With parts cut out and parts changed?

 

[YHWH's Lion]

When the people learning to memorise are children, many as young as five, the answer I gave is more than adequate and if you want to imply that it is bad not to memorise long passages then fine. I don't see the value, but if you're very keen you can memorise the entire bible, some assure me that such is a very salutary exercise.

You dont see the value of learning God's word the way it is written? you find more value to learn it the way it is re-written by men? What about the value of not changing God's word from "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" to "Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day."

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think we've had enough of this for now. Let's move on.

You dont see the value of learning God's word the way it is written? you find more value to learn it the way it is re-written by men? What about the value of not changing God's word from "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" to "Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day."

 

[sculleywr]

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Broke the images and the brass serpent.

Which images? Did he break the statues of the Angels on the Mercy Seat, thus desecrating the Mercy Seat? Did he burn the embroidered veil in the Temple? Did he destroy the altars in the temple with engraved images? Or did he just destroy the pagan images to idols?

I'm gonna bet he didn't destroy the images God commanded to be made in the temple. Mostly because it doesn't say he did. Of course, Iconoclasts apparently believe God is an idolater.

 

[sculleywr]

Thats it? thats your answer? Because its inconvenient to learn Gods Word how its written? That men took it upon themselves to re-write God's Commandments? and because of it people (and kids) are learning something that is not from the Word of God but from men. With parts cut out and parts changed?

No. The answer is that children learn a little at a time, and there is much more nuance to the Second Commandment than the horrible translation of the KJV would suggest, since the word is the Hebrew word for IDOL, and not the word for image. The same goes for the Greek Old Testament.

Because of mistranslation, Protestants teach something that is subtly different from the command of God, in the same way as Eve had a subtle difference in her knowledge of the instruction of God (compare how she answers the snake with what God actually says).

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hezekiah destroyed both the other images (theirs) as well as the brazen serpent God Himself commanded Moses to make.

Both idols and an icon.

For one, it looks like for censing the icon (made by Moses according to His commandment) but not according to His instruction concerning it. The other images God did not command them to make having made these things unto themselves.

I dont' see why Hezekiah would go into the most holy place where the golden censer and ark of the covenant would be as was ordained to destroy it. God commanded that to be made also, the two figures as well which were made facing one another whose faces were covered by their outstretched wings. These were ordained this way, as God told them he would meet with them both between the cherubs (and above them).

It shows us all, graven images (even idols) being destroyed by Hezekiah, and an icon made by Moses being broken to pieces, and elsewhere concerning the ark Uzza having reached out his hand to the ark was killed, (and by God) for doing that.

There are other instances, for example, Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

 

[sculleywr]

Hezekiah destroyed both the other images (theirs) as well as the brazen serpent God Himself commanded Moses to make.

Both idols and an icon.

For one, it looks like for censing the icon (made by Moses according to His commandment) but not according to His instruction concerning it. The other images God did not command them to make having made these things unto themselves.

I dont' see why Hezekiah would go into the most holy place where the golden censer and ark of the covenant would be as was ordained to destroy it. God commanded that to be made also, the two figures as well which were made facing one another whose faces were covered by their outstretched wings. These were ordained this way, as God told them he would meet with them both between the cherubs (and above them).

It shows us all, graven images (even idols) being destroyed by Hezekiah, and an icon made by Moses being broken to pieces, and elsewhere concerning the ark Uzza having reached out his hand to the ark was killed, (and by God) for doing that.

There are other instances, for example, Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

An icon does not mean he destroyed all the other icons, especially considering that the Holy Place was rebuilt, according to God's commands, in similar fashion to the original temple. The Scriptures do NOT show ALL images, but all IDOLS.

Uzza is not considered a corollary because the smiting of Uzza was not because he worshiped the Ark as God, but rather that he disrespected the Ark. If Uzza was killed for the disrespect of the ark for just touching it, what would God do to the man who outright destroyed what he killed someone for touching? I shudder to think.

For another, the Jews are COMMANDED to burn incense before the altars in the Old Testament as a direct order from the divine Father. As far as the description of what Nadab and Abihu did, they were procedurally accurate in their actions. They filled the censer as was commanded, and they burnt the incense as was commanded. Scripture does not elaborate on what "strange fire" means, so it is wrong to assume it has to do with the burning of incence, which had been commanded in Scripture only a few chapters prior!

Assuming that Hezekiah destroyed ALL of the images in the Temple is extrapolation and speculation. And if he did, the Scripture does not say he was right in doing so, and it would seem to disagree with Hezekiah in later books as those images are found in the Temple built after the exile.

Application of logic in this does not lead one to concluding that Hezekiah was an Iconoclast. That is applying MODERN thinking on an ANCIENT culture and person. Because the command to make images in the Temple is found in the Torah, then we must assume that images, in and of themselves, are not sinful until God says otherwise. God didn't say that the images in the temple were to be destroyed, and didn't specifically ordain the destruction of the serpent. The book was simply recording what he did and why he did it. It was not saying whether or not the specific action was sin or not.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont even know what you are talking about putting things into what I posted that I did not

Thats why I dont like talking to you its like chasing down things I dont say and never pointing out the error in the post itself

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Is this really turning into a Catholic vs Protestant discussion. What church was it who created and canonized the bible?

 

[sculleywr]

I dont even know what you are talking about putting things into what I posted that I did not

Thats why I dont like talking to you its like chasing down things I dont say and never pointing out the error in the post itself

The error was implying that Hezekiah was an Iconoclast or that Scripture condones Iconoclasm. Otherwise, what is the point? We have already said that Hezekiah would have been considered overzealous. We would like to move on to something else, such as the topic of the OP, or the misinterpretation of the Second Commandment, because there is nothing more to that topic that is worth discussing.

The Horse, He's dead, Jim.

 

[Standing Up]

Which images? Did he break the statues of the Angels on the Mercy Seat, thus desecrating the Mercy Seat? Did he burn the embroidered veil in the Temple? Did he destroy the altars in the temple with engraved images? Or did he just destroy the pagan images to idols?

I'm gonna bet he didn't destroy the images God commanded to be made in the temple. Mostly because it doesn't say he did. Of course, Iconoclasts apparently believe God is an idolater.

The trick is differentiating between the two. Have you on good authority that St Soandso heard God say, make this painting of Jesus and Mary?

 

[Standing Up]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

I guess the above link is really what my question is about.
A Traditional Catechetical Formula changes the 10 Commandments.
Why do men decide to mess with Gods 10 Commandments? Why not leave them the way they are?
What is a point of "A Traditional Catechetical Formula" ?

EX: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God;
in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son,
or your daughter, your manservant,
or your maidservant or your cattle,
or the sojourner who is within your gates;
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that is in them,
and rested the seventh day;
therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.


DEUT: Observe the sabbath day,
to keep it holy
. . .

RC formulation: 3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

So, what does one make of this interpretation?